The Meat Company that’s Put Nearly a Billion Dollars into Plant-Based Meat

Adam Grogan: [00:00:00] Humans, insatiable appetite for more protein and animal proteins is, is, uh, continues to grow. And the numbers support that. But the facts are that, you know, we can't sustain that kind of level. Um, and so we need to be able to, um, have and be able to commercialize and, and make it, uh, accessible to. A great deal of the population, uh, more plant-based proteins.

Paul Shapiro: Welcome to the Business for Good Podcast, a show where we spotlight companies making money

Adam Grogan: by making the world a

Paul Shapiro: better place. I'm your host Paul Shapiro, and if you share a passion for using commerce to solve many of the world's most pressing problems, then this is the show for you. Welcome friends to the 58th episode of The Business for Good Podcast.

You know, 58 has always been a favorite number of mine, both because it was the Jersey number of my favorite football player as a child, Wilbur Marshall, and also since as a kid I used to try to collect, uh, 1958 baseball cards, some of which I still have. Hopefully they are worth something today, but [00:01:00] you know what is really worth something?

This conversation with two executives from one of the largest meat companies on the planet, maple Weave Foods. Now those of you who listen to the show know that I've devoted a good amount of my life to trying to help humanity use fewer animals for food. So why would we be having a meat company on as a business that's doing good?

Well, that is an easy answer because of all of the meat, all the major meat companies, none has embraced plant protein in the way that Canada's largest meat company. Maple Leaf Foods has. Not only has the company acquired two well-known plant protein brands, field Roast and Light Life, but it has dramatically expanded those brands reach.

Enabling more meat consumers to enjoy these plant-based products. In fact, maple Leaf has put nearly a billion dollars billion with a B so far into acquiring and now growing their plant-based protein lions. Part of that includes boating a $100 million Tempe plant, , thinking about that, a hundred million dollars just for a Tempe plant, [00:02:00] along with a 310 million plant-based meat facility, both in Indiana.

These are the kinds of numbers that even the biggest alt protein startups dream of, yet it is a meat company that is making it happen. In this episode, we talk with the executive in charge of Maple Leafs plant protein division called Greenleaf Foods, Adam Grogan. We're also joined by the company's chief of r and d.

Jai, an impressive meat industry veteran who's in charge of a team of 90 food s. Many of whom are working to innovate the best new alt proteins for the meat eating consumer to enjoy. We talk about a lot of things, including whether Maple Leaf sees plant-based meat as cannibalizing their core products or merely as a supplemental effort to them.

We discuss their efforts to put plant protein not only into the meat aisle, but also into the meat itself. We learned that ironically, Lightlife was a vegetarian but not vegan brand pre-acquisition, and it took a meat giant like Maple Leaf owning it to convert all their products to become animal free.

And we learned that in just a few years since acquiring Field Roast. [00:03:00] Maple Leaf has now tripled the size of that business. And yes, we also touch on the controversial ad that Lightlife pace criticizing fellow plant-based meat purveyors, and we get their thoughts in retrospect about it. There is so much in this episode that I don't wanna filibuster anymore by making this into a longer intro than it needs to be.

So let me turn it over to Adam and Jindra, two folks who are certainly using the power of their business to try to do some serious good in the world. Adam and Jindra, welcome to the Business for Good podcast.

Adam Grogan: Thanks, Paul. Really excited to be here. Yeah, thanks Paul. Uh,

Paul Shapiro: great to be here. Hey, it is my pleasure.

I'm really psyched to have you guys on. And I just wanna ask you, uh, I'm just gonna get started. Uh, very little pleasantries. You guys work for the biggest meat company in Canada. It's been a huge player in meat production and advocating meat consumption, and yet now you have a major initiative to promote plant-based meats.

And you've acquired two companies in this space, uh, both Light Life and Field Roast, and you're building, uh, what may be the [00:04:00] biggest or one of the biggest plant-based meat manufacturing facilities on the planet. What's going on?

Adam Grogan: Well, Paul, we're, we're pretty proud of what we've, uh, been able to accomplish in a short period of time.

Um, many of your audience may not be aware that Maple Leaf Foods is a, is a hundred year old company in Canada. Um, we are in the animal production business, but we, uh, we have a pretty lofty goal, and that is to be the most sustainable protein company on Earth. And a number of years ago, um, you know, as an executive team, we got together and.

Spent a lot of a great deal of time talking about how are we going to, uh, service this world for the next hundred years. And as part of that was a significant conversation and a strategic shift into the plant-based protein space. And so in 2017, we, uh, as part of that strategy, we acquired Lightlife Foods.

Uh, and then shortly thereafter, uh, we're able to acquire Field Roast. So, uh, two fantastic companies and two fantastic brands. And, uh, it's just [00:05:00] the, uh, start of what we hope to be, uh, a significant, uh, investment in the plant protein space. Cool.

Paul Shapiro: Well, I'll tell you first and foremost, uh, I am a very avid Tempe consumer and I like to consider myself actually a Tempe connoisseur, although I'm sure there are some Indonesians who might disagree with me on that, but at least myself, perception is as a Tempe connoisseur and there is only one brand that I buy and that's yours.

Uh, it is by far the best Tempe that I have anywhere ever had, and I eat it on a very regular basis. And I wanna make sure that you think it's cool for me to eat it straight out the pack and that I don't need to cook it. Do you think there's any problem with that? Because I do it on a very

Adam Grogan: regular basis, , well, it's quite safe to do so.

I'm sure Jain will give you the scientific explanation, but we do, uh, we do pasteurize it to ensure that it's very healthy deed outta the package. And, uh, I don't think you're, I don't think you're breaking any rules there. Yeah. I mean,

Jitendra Sagili: uh, you, you can eat outta the package, but you [00:06:00] know, the, for the best taste experience, Paul, for sure, you, you can saute it or fry it, , add a bit of pepper and salt, you know, it gives you the best

Paul Shapiro: tasting experience.

Right. So, yeah.

Jitendra Sagili: And to point, you know, Tempe is, is one of the, one of the best super foods, you know, with the, with an amazing fermented, uh, soybean, uh, product, um, you know, with, uh, such a high, uh, quality of protein, uh, that is, uh, you know, highly digestible and, uh, bioavailable. Mm-hmm. , you know, tasting such a versatile protein.

Adam Grogan: Yeah. And Paul, I think one of the things that we, you know, you're talking to two Tempe, uh, you know, we, we, we, we worshiped with Tempe. It's a, it's an incredible, incredible product. Yeah. And, uh, light Life was actually founded in 1979. Um, and they originally, the company was called Tempe Works actually. And it was started, uh, in western Massachusetts in an old carwash.

Wow. Uh, and so they were, uh, you know, that the, the founders were, [00:07:00] you know, the first people to bring Tempe sort of mainstream. And, uh, it's, it's now, you know, obviously you switched the name to Late Life Foods over that period of time, but the recipe and the way that we produce it is exactly the same way that it was done.

Just a little bigger, a little bit more at a time than it was back in 19 nine. And I, we did hear the interview that you had with Seth from Toki and uh, I think we shared our same passion and conviction for, for a great product of Tempe.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah. It's always surprising to me how less popular Tempe is, than tofu, but I hope that will change.

And I know that you guys are doing a lot to try to change that, cuz I read recently you're putting a hundred million dollars into your Tempe production. Uh, so lemme just ask first, are you currently, or will you soon be after that the largest Tempe manufacturer on the

Adam Grogan: planet? Well, we are there today, at least in North America.

We are, um mm-hmm. , but we, you know, to your point earlier, Tempe really is only in less than 1% of all households in North America and . That's surprising. Yeah, it's actually [00:08:00] 0.7%. And, but those who love it, love it a lot like us and tofu is, uh, just around just over 5%. So you can, you can imagine, you know, just how, how much room there is to grow.

And I think when people are looking for simple more natural ingredients, they're looking for more functional nutrition, uh, flexibility, convenience, I mean, it, it hits a lot of marks. In fact, we, the rallying cry that we have back in, in, at, at Green Greenleaf Foods is that we believe Tempe will be the next kombucha.

It's, uh, it's that, it's that excellent for you and it's, uh, it's in a great product.

Paul Shapiro: Nice. Okay. Well, I, I promise you jindra that I will cook it sometimes , but it's very easy, you know, it's very easy just to cut it outta the pack and dip it in hummus and, uh, I like it. But if, if you're looking for a, an easy recipe for it, put absolutely nothing on it and just put it in an air fryer for like five minutes and it makes us very nice, crispy stick that you can then dip into any, like salsa or guacamole or hummus or anything.

It's awesome. [00:09:00] Yeah.

Jitendra Sagili: So good. Such, such a, what's the product, uh, Paul saying, like, it, it can go anywhere, you know? Anywhere that tool for chicken or even, you know, I'm originally from India, anywhere like Pan, which is a dairy product, dairy protein product can go into. Yeah. So it's such a product and such an amazing protein source.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah. Well, you know, I'm glad you raised that Jindra because you know, you and I have, have spoken a lot before, uh, about your journey and about your story, uh, of growing up in India and moving to the US and getting involved in the food science world. And now you're overseeing a team of food product developers for this massive company.

Uh, how many people work work under you at Maple Leaf right now? I would, yeah, it's, it's

Jitendra Sagili: more, uh, both, you know, um, you know, all proteins. I would say, uh, more than 90 plus

Paul Shapiro: people. Right. So, so now over. So you're overseeing a team of o of over 90 people who are developing all these new products, right? Both meat and plant-based.

And let me ask you, like, what got you into [00:10:00] this in the first place? And if the young Jitendra had known that you were gonna be making plant-based meats, what would he have said? Like, you know, you started working at this huge meat company, did you ever think that you were gonna be working on alternative proteins?

Jitendra Sagili: No, I, I, I would say, you know, let me, lemme take, take back a little bit. And it's like, my career journey, um, over last two decades is, uh, not necessarily a planned one, I would say. You know, like, it, it's, uh, it's fascinating. Um, you know, where I'm here, I'm grateful where, you know, where I'm currently in the, in the, in the journey.

Um, it's, it's continuously evolving. Um, you know, going back, uh, my roots in India, you know, I finished, uh, my education in bachelor's in veterinary medicine and from there I pursued my master's in animal sciences. In University of Wisconsin, Madison. So when I was doing my masters, then I got realized and got real appreciation of how big, uh, the food industry prepared food or prepared to eat industry is.

It's, it's, it's fascinating to see how big is in, in America and, and North [00:11:00] America, right? So I started learning more about products and, you know, my first career career job was with ConAgra as a food technologist in r and d. You know, I grew, uh, a food technologist mostly on meat products. You know, I grew, uh, in my career working with ConAgra, uh, Smithfield and O Group, uh, prior to moving to Maple Leaf.

So, you know, my journey, you know, over the, over the period of, uh, two decades, you know, I, I met, uh, Adam, I believe Adam Infourteen, um, you know, for Maple Leaf joining in Maple Leaf. And, uh, fast forward, you know, uh, I'm where I am. I'm super grateful to working for. An amazing purpose driven company, um, with all the, with excellent sustainable plant, plant-based protein brands, light life and fuel roast the diverse product portfolio, including our favorite Tempe.

So it, it, it's, it's, you know, how, uh, from, um, from where I started, where I ended, you, [00:12:00] you take the, if I reflect upon it, um, having the meat background, you know, right. You know, meat, uh, processing background, um, you know, uniquely place, uh, me and certain other colleagues in the sense that. We view, you know, sustainability is, is key.

You know, having a sustainable protein production. In fact, that's one of my mission as well, like, to, to have the food ecosystem that is more, uh, food protein ecosystem that is more sustainable, affordable, nutritious, and great tasting. So, you know, if you think about plant protein, it is one of the protein choices.

It is one of the protein options, um, that, that exist. Whether it's a plant protein, uh, or animal protein or cellular based or cultivated meat protein that's, you know, that's in works or al protein, the, the formats the consumers wanted. Was always in meat formats. That is the number one of choice, right? So as a meat scientist with [00:13:00] the, the, the, the, the expertise, I think, you know, uh, me and some of my colleagues Arely positioned in the sense like, you take the meat, however the, wherever the source is, but the for, but the processing is pretty much, you know, a reflect the meat process.

So when you have that expertise, um, it's an amazing way to, uh, use that expertise and create a, a great tasting, you know, uh, products at scale that are more cost effective, uh, and food safe. So as we are, you know, um, you know, the loaning curve is there, you know, learning more about plant proteins, uh, similar to meat protein at the, be the, how it interacts, the functionality.

You know, when you try to make a plant protein into, you know, a plant protein come out into a hot dog format or a burger or a sausage, Um, you know, our pepperoni, you know, like there, there, there's a lot of learning curve. Um, there's a lot of technology or ingredient functionalities you have to learn. Um, but that is the fun part of it, right?

So as you, as you [00:14:00] learn more and more and, uh, you know, how that, uh, uh, conversations with all the, you know, like a shared value or vision with your, uh, supply partners and everyone, you know, in learning the, in learning the technologies. Um, you know, I, I, I feel like, you know, it, it's, it's a continuous journey and, you know, I'm super excited where I am in the, in the space and, you know, and also like, as one of the few things, uh, one of the, one of the, uh, great thing about this, um, fascinating is I know meat has been there for a long time, uh, centuries I would say.

And, and the, these technologies that's been decades and centuries, Fermentation and extrusion has completely reimagined thanks to all these amazing companies, completely reimagined to deliver these, uh, amazing products, sustainable protein choices we're currently on the market. Right. So that's, that's, you know, that excites me quite a bit.

And like I said, the, the, my career journey is constantly evolving and I'm, [00:15:00] and I'm learning and I'm super grateful for, uh, you know, where

Paul Shapiro: I'm right now. Mm-hmm. , I'm sure. Well, it is really exciting. Uh, I, I too share your enthusiasm for all of these new technologies that I think will help create a more sustainable protein production system.

And Adam, I know you, you mentioned that your goal is for Maple Leaf to be the most sustainable protein company out there. So, you know, a lot of the people who listen to the show will already know that, you know, meat production takes a lot of land, takes a lot of water, uh, emits a lot of greenhouse gas emissions compared to plant protein.

So does part of becoming the most sustainable protein company on the planet mean that you will. Displace some of your animal protein production with plant protein. Is that your hope? Is that your goal or do you view it merely as supplemental and not actually displacing any of the core business of Maple Leaf?

Adam Grogan: It's a great question, and I, and it's one that I get, you know, because my background is also in the, in the meat industry, I get quite a bit, and I think, you know, meat, meat protein has been in [00:16:00] the human diet for hundreds of thousands of years, and we don't view that as changing. Um, and I know some of our other competitors have, have maybe different views on this, but we, we don't, we don't, we don't see it as such.

We think there's, there needs to be a better balanced relationship between animal and plant proteins. Um, I think that that's super important for dietary needs and the long-term, long-term global sustainability. You know, Paul, when you look at some of these numbers around the global population and it, it's pretty clear that, um, you know, the humans insatiable appetite for more protein, And animal proteins is, is, uh, continues to grow and the numbers support that.

But the facts are that, you know, we can't sustain that kind of level. Um, and so we need to be able to, um, have and be able to commercialize and, and make it accessible to, uh, a great deal of the population, uh, more plant-based protein. So we view, simply put, as we view protein, as, as a continuing to grow, [00:17:00] uh, a desire for protein and consuming protein is a desire to grow at an exponential rate.

Uh, I think the numbers support that, but at the same time, um, we think that we can support a lot of that growth through, uh, diversity of protein sources and, and that includes plant protein. And so that's for us, uh, a big part of our, um, reason to, to invest. And we've, we've committed, you know, almost a billion dollars in capital to, between investing and growing, um, our plant protein space.

It's, it's a big part of our objective.

Paul Shapiro: That's incredible. Are you aware of any other meat company that's invested as much capital into this, uh, alternative protein space as Maple Leaf?

Adam Grogan: No, not at all. And I think, uh, for us, uh, you know, it's a source of pride. It's not one, you know, as, I mean good Canadians, it's not something we wave our flag on too much.

We're, we're very, uh, humble in that. But we're, you know, we're, we're deeply committed to this. I think where others, uh, have, may have made investments for, to jump on a trend or take advantage [00:18:00] of a growth platform. You know, we're all in. Um, we're between our marketing investments, our, our plant investments, our people investments, um, I think it's, it's unlike anything that we've seen so far, um, in this, in this space.

And so, mm-hmm. , we, uh, you know, we're awfully proud of it. And including, you know, one other thing is not only just investing dollars is, um, our commitment around sustainability, uh, as it relates to, uh, carbon neutrality. You know, we've, we're one of the few global food companies. That has signed up for science-based targets as an outcome of the Paris Agreement.

We, uh, we've, uh, dramatically reduced our carbon footprint, um, both within our meat protein business as well as our plant protein business. We're carbon neutral now, and anything we have not been able to, uh, reduce has been offset, uh, through high quality carbon credits in here in the United States. So we we're, we're, you know, we're deeply committed not only to plant [00:19:00] protein, but also becoming that most sustainable protein company on earth.

And what we mean by that is not always necessarily about carbon, but it's about having, uh, you know, making, making, having a planet that, you know, my, my 11 and four, my 12 and 14 year old boys can, can be really proud that their father, who had a, had a, had an impact in the food business. You know, left a, left, a left, a legacy of a, of a great, uh, great environment and a great, uh, great company behind.

Paul Shapiro: Sure. That's a, a good aspiration to have. So, a, Adam, you mentioned, you know, being, being friendly Canadians and, uh, that you guys want to have a, a humble, um, attitude. And I, I think it's extremely admirable, obviously, uh, that you guys are investing so heavily into the, uh, plant-based and alternative protein space.

And, uh, I'd love to talk in a little bit about some of the ways that you've advanced the distribution of these products. But before that, and I just wanna ask you about the ad. . And so, um, [00:20:00] anybody who listened to the last episode of the podcast with Irena Jerry, formerly of Danone and Now of Change Foods, she was critical of a advertisement that you all, as Lightlife Foods took out that was an ad that was critical of beyond meat and of, uh, impossible Foods.

And you all were alleging that they were using, uh, too many ingredients or they had ingredients that you thought weren't part of a queen label. Um, and I think a lot of people were surprised by this, not only because of the way that Irina described it as she thought it wasn't collegial in the space, but also, you know, for these Canadians, they're so friendly and then to come on out, uh, aggressive like that, attacking these American companies.

And so, um, I wanna give you a chance to respond to Irena or just to the criticism in general about that ad and, and see, you know, what your thought is on it. Like, why'd you do it and do you think it was a success for the.

Adam Grogan: Well, you know, it's, it's a gr uh, it's really interesting the way the , why did you know?

The, why did you do it? And, and the conversation that you had with Irena is exactly why we did it. Our goal was to spark a conversation in the industry and [00:21:00] amongst consumers. You know, we had just come off the back of, uh, two important things. One was we just, we did the largest and most extensive and exhaustive piece of consumer research in North American history, in plant-based protein.

We invested, we, we interviewed over 11,000 consumers. , and they told us they want plant-based proteins that are made with simple, recognizable ingredients. And that was something that was, uh, really important to them. And in fact, if anything we could see from lapsed users or for, for, uh, UNC Uncommitted users, that this was a big reason why they hadn't, uh, tried the category yet, in fact.

So for us, it was really about making a statement to say, look, we can be better. We can do better. You know, if our focus is on making great tasting products, why can't they be include simple ingredients, more nutritious ingredients, um, easy for the body to digest, in fact. And at the same time, we, uh, have relaunched the entirety of the Lightlife brand.

Uh, we're going through that process now. Our, our [00:22:00] first foray was our burger. We're d you know, we're down to 11 ingredients. Um, we have n no synthetic ingredients. We have no GMOs, uh, no soy. And, and for the rest of our lineup, we are, you know, by the end of the first quarter here, we're gonna have completely renovated all of our food, uh, simplified our ingredient panels.

Uh, our lineup will be 100% vegan. We are eliminating any milk products. We are eliminating kean from a number of our skews. And so we, you know, we believe fundamentally, based on what consumers told us, is that it was important now that we sparked that conversation and addressed this issue as an industry and we're better together than we are at the part.

And it's important, our, our, our message to, to beyond an impossible was that we think we all could do, um, a lot more for plant-based protein. If we, if we use that as the beacon for, for.

Paul Shapiro: When I saw the ad, I had, as I often do, uh, the light life, gimme lean product in my refrigerator. [00:23:00] Mm-hmm. , which I actually ate last night, , interestingly enough.

So, um, uh, I, I'm, uh, I, I don't, until we were gonna have this conversation, I don't think I recognized how frequent of a consumer of your products I was, cuz I, uh, last night I had the, uh, light life, gimme, lean and uh, today in my lunch I have the Lightlife Tempe. So, uh, I, I'm a regular consumer, but when I saw the ad, you know, I, I went and looked at my Lightlife Gimme Ween, which is a product that I've been enjoying for literally decades.

In fact, I remember, um, 20 years ago, my mom regularly used it and I, to this day still regularly use it and love it. But I guess that falls into the category of the type of products that you're talking about. Cuz I looked at it and, you know, Looked like a, a beyond or an impossible label. It was like nearly 20 ingredients that had ingredients.

I wasn't sure. Um, and now it doesn't bother me. Like I'm, I'm not part of that crowd of people who, uh, for the, for whom this is an issue when they're buying products. But I realize there are some. So how soon you, I, I did, I just hear you say that by the end of this calendar year, you expect to modify the, the formula for all of the products [00:24:00] that

Adam Grogan: Lightlife.

Yeah, we'll, we'll be done. The vast majority of the work by the end of this, by the end of this first quarter. So that's in March of this year. Uh, gimme lean, uh, Tinder can, can address specifically. Uh, but we too have adjusted that formula as well. And not only have we improved the taste, but we've, uh, we're on a path we're, it's about profe, you know, it's about progress, not perfection.

Sure. But we've re we've reduced, we've dramatically reduced the number of ingredients. We've evaluated every single ingredient that's on that package. Um, and as you know, you know, we're under, you know, the plant-based protein industry is under some criticism from the, those, some of those in the animal protein world about this idea of, of, of which one, which, which one's got a cleaner label, and so on and so forth.

So it's incumbent upon us to try to, uh, address some of these issues so that more consumers will enjoy more plant-based products. Cause what, what they're telling us is that, um, it's not, it's not just enough that they mimic meat. , but that they are good for me. And, and that's an, that's a, that's a [00:25:00] question that we've been trying to address.

Mm-hmm. .

Paul Shapiro: Sure. So, Ja tender, are you moving away from soy? Um, like is my GI ween gonna be made out of pea protein now as opposed to soy protein? Uh, no. Uh,

Jitendra Sagili: Paul, like, you know, like, uh, between light life and field roast, um, it's again, you know, being in the sustainable protein, uh, vision, it's a multiple protein sources.

What it means is we have a lineup, we call, um, a, a fresh line that has got more, uh, p P centric, P protein centric, right? So, you know, our light life burgers, sausages, And the grounds, they're all p protein centric. So when you're, when you're having P protein, we want to ensure it is gluten free and soy free.

So that, you know, it has a, it offers a p protein choice for the consumers, you know, on the soy based, um, you know, the current soy based line that we have that your, your, your, uh, favorite GI and Tempe, all of this, they, they will continue, uh, stay soy. [00:26:00] You know, what Adam was mentioning is, again, you know, it's, it's about, you know, diverse amount of proteins, you know?

Mm-hmm. , what Adam was mentioning is, you know, in terms of cleaning up ingredients, and it is, it is definitely not an easy task, uh, for the team, right? So, like you said, you have decades sold, uh, recipes and product designs that need to be completely revamped, whether it's flavors, processes. Ingredients. So we were actively working with our partners, flavor House partners, as are global flavor houses, to make sure we, we get these, uh, you know, the products and designs cleaner, with cleaner ingredients, yet gives you the same performance and a actual and elevated taste experience.

So, you know, it, it's an incredible task. We've been working from last few months. We're gonna see the fruits of the labor, um, you know, in the first quarter. So the soy is gonna stay, uh, for the soy based lineup. Okay. And, you know, obviously our field roast, which we are also renovating, and, uh, some of them in market, it's all, uh, centric, uh, products.

[00:27:00] Okay. And we are launching new products as well. Paul, like those products will again, utilize a combination of, uh, some of the other, other proteins, you know, like fava potato proteins, some, uh, stuff like that.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah, I know that soy, I mean, you know, some, some people don't like it, but because it's, uh, a bean that is so high in protein, you need far fewer acres to produce, uh, soy protein than you do let's a p protein because a, a soy bean is closer to 40% protein, whereas a p is closer to 25 or so percent protein.

And so when you're, uh, growing, you know, when you're making plant-based meat and you wanna isolate these down to the, their protein components, it, it does seem to me like soy is actually, you know, you can do it with fewer acres. Now other people may have other concerns about soy that are unrelated, but just from a land use perspective, my presumption, and I don't know this for a fact, and if there's any listeners out there who wanna correct me, I'd love to hear about it.

But my, my feeling is that it probably takes a lot less land to make a soy-based, uh, burger than a pea based burger. But, [00:28:00] um, it's not to say that I'm down on peas. In fact, I am down with peas. Um, I, my own company, the Better Meco, uh, loves using pea protein. So, uh, I, I like 'em. I just. Wonder whether soy gets an unfair wrap in some cases.

But speaking of an unfair wrap, I want to ask you Jindra also then about, uh, one, uh, kind of technical question here. So it seems like the, you know, Adam was mentioning how some in the animal protein industry have been critical of the ingredient deck on plant-based meat. And it seems like methyl cellulose is like their popular, um, whipping horse here, if this, that the correct term.

Certainly not an animal friendly term, but uh, you know, the thing they love to criticize is, is methyl cellulose. Um, which, you know, I have no concerns about it myself, but obviously some people do, cuz it sounds kind of sciencey and it is, a lot of people don't want science in their foods. And so I noticed you guys are using, um, I think what's called modified cellulose, but frankly I'm not familiar enough with food science to know what's the difference.

What, what's the north between modified cellulose and methyl cellulose? And, and [00:29:00] maybe for people who aren't familiar with food product development, what's it used for in the first place? Uh, you

Jitendra Sagili: know, methyl celluloses, um, you know, in plant-based space, Any plant-based scientists, uh, can, um, you know, attest to this.

It, it is the magic ingredient in a prepared plant-based products. Um, there are a lot of work happening right now replacing with the other ingredients. Um, so it is a functional ingredient that, you know, uh, in a, in a, in a normal terms, it, it acts as a. It as a skeleton for the entire matrix of the, of the product, whether it's a hotdog, whether it's a, you know, plant-based hotdog or a plant-based chicken, plant-based burger.

You know, it is, it is a, it is, uh, you know, uh, you can even call it like a magic ingredient. As a functional ingredient, you know, for the plant-based, right. So, um, because, uh, the plant-based product, it's most of the pro plant-based, uh, protein is already texturized. That means no functionality, unlike meat where you can extract protein and, [00:30:00] uh, there is, you know, and helps in binding, you know, plant-based has to rely on ingredients like metals and some other starches and gums and metals is a key ingredient, right?

So, um, there is ton of work happening and I'm sure, uh, lot of other companies working or ingredient companies are working towards replacing it. Uh, it would be an amazing day for everyone if we can able to find an alternative in a cost effective way for meth. Um, as far as the difference between methyl sys or modified sys, um, there is not that much of a difference.

It is just a, a different nomenclature, how you call a meth methylation of the sys. It is modified format of a. So, um, yeah, that is the only, uh,

Paul Shapiro: difference. Cool. Okay. Yeah, I've noticed, I mean, I, I'm a pretty keen observer of what happens on plant-based product packaging, and I've noticed that nearly every.

Uh, brand seems to use methyls or some form of it. Um, and I mean, at least [00:31:00] I'm not aware of any health concerns around it. I think it's just a name that doesn't sound like a queen label name, but I I'm not aware of any. Yeah, I mean,

Jitendra Sagili: is a, it is a modified form of a right. So which is, uh, comes from the wood or anys or cell wall based, uh, uh, ingredient.

Mm-hmm. , you know, I mean, chemical names, uh, are pretty, uh, crazy sometimes, you know, if you think about salt, its sodium chloride, you know, so it's, it's you when you put sodium chloride there for, you know, what is this, you know, that's why, you know, it's, it's such a bad rap, you know, in s um, but there is a lot of work happening, you know, again, trying to find a natural, uh, binding way.

Um, there's kind of work happening in.

Paul Shapiro: It kind of reminds me of the old, uh, petition, the parody petition to ban, uh, di hydrogen oxide. Uh, so saying that this can kill people and it can burn people. And of course, dihydrogen oxide is just h2o, [00:32:00] um, . But,

Adam Grogan: uh, anyway.

Paul Shapiro: All right. Well thank you for helping indulge my methyl cellulose interest here.

Jindra . Um, a Adam, lemme ask you then, you know, when you guys, uh, acquired these plant-based companies, a lot of people, uh, who are big fans of Field Roast and of Light Life, you know, these are companies that were either, well, field Roast was an all vegan brand, and of course it still is, and Light Life was an all vegetarian brand, and it sounds like you're making it into an all vegan brand right now.

Fir first. Is that true? Are you guys making white life into an entirely vegan brand? Yes, that's true. Yeah. Well, thing, I mean, first thing about the irony of that, that you, that a meat company acquired a plant-based or a vegetarian company and made it into a vegan company, that is a pretty, uh, interesting irony right there.

Um, so first my hat's off to you for that. Of course. That's awesome. Um, and, and there'll be plenty of, uh, of vegans, myself included, who will be quite, uh, thrilled to, uh, to enjoy more of those products. Um, but let's talk about the business of this. Adam, I wanna ask you what happened with these brands? You know, a lot of [00:33:00] people, uh, when field roasts, for example, was acquired, people were wondering what's gonna happen to this brand?

Not in terms of whether, you know, it would start having meat in it. I don't think anybody expected that. And I know you've guaranteed, uh, that that won't happen. In terms of its distribution, because you know, for me, I look at like how these companies can do good in the world by being further distributed and offering plant-based meat in a cheaper and more convenient manner for people to get.

So has that happened, um, so far? Like is field risk in more locations now? Are there more skews that have been released? Is the price cheaper? Like, what's actually happened since Maple Leaf acquired Field Roast? Well,

Adam Grogan: you know, field Roast is one of those brands that we have, you know, incredible affinity for.

And one of the philosophies we have, Paul, is this idea that consumers own these brands and we're just stewards of them. You know, we don't, we don't own the brand the consumer does. And if you come at it through that lens, uh, we hold, uh, the Field Roast brand and Lightlife brand for that matter. In, in, in such high regard.

We, we feel, we feel a sense of [00:34:00] responsibility and Field Roast uh ha is just an incredible, uh, brand. We've, uh, recently, um, Uh, just upgraded all of the, uh, the packaging. We actually have a new advertising campaign coming out here, uh, in the next 60 days, which I think, um, your audience will love, uh, just really, uh, modernizing it and, um, and providing some fuel for future.

Innovation. Um, we have tripled the business, uh, effectively since we had purchased it, and we are, uh, moving it into many new stores. In fact, uh, field Roast has a brand, uh, called Chow, which is a plant-based cheese, which recently just got distribution through, uh, Walmart, uh, for the very first time. So we, we are definitely focused on increasing distribution.

Uh, we're focused on modernizing the brand, uh, making sure that we stay true to David Lee's, uh, who is the, the owner that founded it. Uh, he was a chef by trade and, [00:35:00] and what he brought to it around the artisan quality of its bold, rich flavors. Uh, we intend to really, uh, follow in his footsteps and. What he's created with, with just some incredible, uh, new products that, that, that live up to that brand.

So, so it's an honor to, it's an honor to work with it. Um, and, and hopefully your audience will be able to see it much more in distribution, more predominantly in the east side of the country from Seattle.

Paul Shapiro: Wow. So tell me, when you say tripled the size of the business, Adam, do you mean in, in terms of revenue?

Do you mean in terms of pounds of production? What is the basis for that tripling, uh,

Adam Grogan: in revenue? So we, we have significantly increased, uh, the sales rate on Field Roast. Um, we, we've done the same on Lightlife for that matter, but we are, we are in the case of both brands, um, ensuring that we take these wonderful legacy brands and, and bring.

Uh, up to, you know, up to standard in terms of what [00:36:00] consumers are looking for now. So, you know, one of the things we didn't talk about, Paul, is that, you know, this idea that, you know, 93% of all new consumers coming into this space are flexitarians. They're, they're people who are trying this food for the very first time.

And so we need to ensure that, you know, when they do try a light life product or a field risk product, that it, that it just delights them and they'll buy more plant-based products. And that's essentially what we're trying to

Paul Shapiro: do. Yeah. So let me ask you then about that, Adam, because, you know, people in this space know that vegetarians and vegans are not driving sales of these products.

It's nearly entirely meat reducers, people who want to eat meat but are happy to con to eat more plant nu uh, plant-based nutrition as well. So do you think that that purchaser of field roast or light life is the type of purchaser who maybe would've been buying some maple leaf meat product and are switching to this?

Or is it something else that's happening? .

Adam Grogan: What we see right now, and it's kind of related to the question that you, you asked earlier, because we've recently, [00:37:00] uh, launched Light Life in Canada. It didn't exist in Canada. Uh, field Roast did had a small presence, and where we do sell Maple Leaf, uh, products, we're actually seeing our business actually increase.

Um, I we're, what we see in the market right now is this, this. You know, I look in the store shelves, you know, Jain and I walk stores like crazy. I think we, you know, , we spend way more time in the stores than we'd want to, but think about all the places where you're seeing protein pop up, whether it be cereal bars to breakfast, cereal to, I'm seeing it in beverages.

And, and for us, we, we just see the insatiable appetite for protein. So we're seeing it incremental. So those that are trying, uh, plant-based proteins are, are adding it to their list of, of, of protein options. Um, obviously we love, love, love our vegan and vegetarian core consumers. Uh, we hope to honor them with even more products.

Uh, we have not forgotten how important they are to, to our business and to these brands. They're the [00:38:00] lifeblood of these brands. But what we think is really important is if we can get more people to satisfy their protein desires with more plant options, I think we're all better off. And that's really, that's really

Paul Shapiro: our goal.

Yeah, for sure. I, I agree with you and I think that, you know, look, as you alluded to earlier, Adam, meat consumption is going up, not down. It's going up in North America, it's going up in China, in India, and Brazil and Mexico, and all the places where it's gonna matter the most in the coming decades.

Consumption of meat is going up. Both because of population growth, but also just because more people are entering the middle class. And when people get more money, one of the very first things they do is start buying more meat. So humanity has to figure out a way to satiate, uh, our demand for meat in a way that is way more efficient, way more sustainable, and way more humane than what we've been doing in the past.

And clearly plant protein is gonna be part of that. Uh, I also wanna ask you both then, about [00:39:00] another strategy. So not just the idea of offering these competitor products that are entirely plant-based, but also for example, of what Maple Leaf, uh, has been doing with the blended products. Because I know that you all have introduced, uh, lines of Maple Leaf products that also incorporate plant protein.

So you see plant-based protein, not only entering the meat aisle of the supermarket, but entering the meat itself. And I wanna ask you about your experience with that. Jindra is a product developer. Was it difficult for you to marry animal proteins and plant proteins? And how was that experience for you to not just make a plant-based meat, but in this case make an animal-based meat that also contains plant protein that would still be attractive to the type of person who wants to just go out and get a regular burger?

Yeah. Um,

Adam Grogan: it's,

Jitendra Sagili: it's, uh, it, I won't say it is, uh, it is a difficult Paul, but it is definitely a, uh, the design is a much more complex because meat, protein, it is [00:40:00] not e either meat, hundred percent meat protein, or a hundred percent plant protein, right? You're using half and half with two different properties.

Meat has a different property the way it performs, the meat protein, which plant protein. So, um, you know, it has got, you know, a bit of learning curve. The design has a bit more complex to blend both, uh, however, you know, a lot of. In terms of flavor, in terms of color, can be done by having the meat protein, you know, in, in, in, in this mix.

You know, the, the, the meat offers an amazing aroma that you are trying to do in, in plant protein, hundred percent plant protein by itself. By combining these two, you get the benefit of meat fat, uh, the fatty fail, uh, some of the textural benefits of meat, uh, some of the flavor benefit and color benefit of the meat.

But, and also by adding the, uh, plant protein here, um, you would able to reduce some of the nutritional penalties, right? You know, so, um, you know, you can reduce the saturated fat. You can reduce the cholesterol, yet you can keep the [00:41:00] same protein. So the taste is paramount here. And, you know, um, if we can achieve the taste, you know, we do, we did launch the products, you know, um, the taste is definitely, you know, where it's, we are continue evolving the design, uh, to deliver the best taste, uh, possible.

But it's, it's a, it's a very interesting and unique concept and, uh, not only that, you know, and it gives you no compromise for the, for some of the, you know, heavy meat eaters mm-hmm. , you know, that wanted to have the, the meat yet, uh, conscious for their health as well as for them.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's an, it's such a fascinating concept and a, as you both know, one, that I've devoted a good amount of my life now too, and I, as I really believe that it can help, uh, achieve those goals of improving sustainability.

Yeah. Um, so, you know, what do you think about the two competing ideas in this space? So one is that you advertise this as a blended item, that you try to sell it on those points that you were just mentioning, tandra. So less saturated fat, [00:42:00] less cholesterol, fewer calories, but same protein versus going in a stealth health manner.

And so, as an example, many of the, uh, canned soup manufacturers in recent years have been reducing their sodium, but they don't tout it as a reduced sodium product because they don't want people to think it has less flavor. So they just every year have gradually reduced the amount of salt in there. Or to use a different type of analogy.

If you think about, you know, in the United States, if when you put gas in your car, a certain portion of that isn't, Gas from fossil fuels, it's ethanol and people don't think about it, but we're using fewer fossil fuels because of that. And so that's more of a stealth health, or in that case, I guess a stealth energy , uh, type of play.

But have you thought about the idea, I know that you all have advertised the product as, as a blended product, but have you thought about or tested the idea of going stealth health and adding some plant protein to reduce the amount of animal protein or animal, uh, fat, at least in the, um, in some of those conventional products and not [00:43:00] touting it as a blended product?

Yeah, that's a, that's a great question. And,

Jitendra Sagili: you know, the product currently in, you know, currently launched, and I know that for sure, the design, the, the, you know, it's a brand new product in unique perspective for consumers to, uh, gain more awareness around it. I know the Maple Leaf marketing team is all over it.

Um, how to, uh, you know, continue advance the, the positioning of the product. . Um, you know, I, I do not have an update on that, but I'm sure that the team is evaluating, you know, how to put, reposition it, you know, and in, in a more self mode or what are the benefits and all that. So I, you know, definitely Great, great suggestion.

Great thought, you know, um mm-hmm. , view point, sodium's fat, you know, if you put like 98% fat free, that's kind of give you a connotation of like, oh, it's not gonna taste good. Right. Cause like, you put a, you put a ha you know, a great product and a consumer casually looks at the nutrition panel. Oh, it's, it's, it's amazing and it tastes great.

[00:44:00] So it's a, it's just the perception, uh, it's a great solution. Yeah. I mean, um, you know, any know, I'm sure the marketing team is, uh, evaluating Maple Leaf marketing team is evaluating all the possibilities.

Paul Shapiro: Alright. Adam, do you have any thoughts on that question about blended meats? Whether it would be better to advertise them as blended or just to say nothing and, and make sure that people have a better product without them even knowing that it's better necessarily.

Adam Grogan: You know, I, I, uh, I can't help but, you know, reflect on the, uh, podcast, uh, episode that you had with Seth from Tofurky, which I enjoyed immensely. And he talked about this idea of taste being king. And that's really stuck with me, actually. And I think whatever we do, whether it be in the meat side of the business, the animal protein, or the plant-based protein industry, we can't forget the fact that when you are selecting a product in a grocery store, such as a burger, whether it's blended animal protein or plant protein, it has to taste amazing.

And I think where you're [00:45:00] going is, is, is exactly the right place. Which is it? The fact that it tastes amazing and it happens to have less saturated fat is the path home, as opposed to, I think some of us that are so close to it as an in the industry, we tend to wanna overcommunicate about how we've made it, um, what it's, what it's made with.

And in the end of the day, we're all. We all got busy lives. We all have so much money in our pocket, and we just want a great taste experience. So, um, you know, your, your, your perspective on this is an interesting one and I, and I can't help but think about what Seth said on your, on your episode there. So it's top of mind.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah. You know, it's so fascinating cuz so many people, they think that, uh, you know, what is gonna drive the demand for such products are gonna be, you know, the either the sustainability or the ethical or the health benefits of the products. But like you just said, I mean, in reality, most people are still buying food because it tastes good, because it's affordable and because it's conveniently [00:46:00] located for them.

You know, either at a store that they like or in the aisle that they like, et cetera. And I, I hear a lot of predictions about how more high-minded motivations are going to increase in terms of their, like what's actually motivating most food purchases. But in my own experience, you know, people tell pollsters one thing to make themselves sound better and in reality they continue doing the things that we've always done, which is buying things that taste good and are affordable.

Um, and, you know, just, uh, uh, I mean, well there's so many examples to prove this, but you know, I, I really do believe that, um, If it doesn't taste good and it's not cost effective, you, you may as well. All the other nice to haves relating to sustainability and so on are not gonna be that compelling, uh, in terms of driving sales.

Adam Grogan: I think Paul, the way to think about this is just, you know, for brands and, and those that are in the space that might be listening, is just this idea of meeting consumers where they are. I mean, there is a certain amount of consumers out there who do, uh, make pur purposeful [00:47:00] choices. Uh, and there's others who, uh, would like to, and they'd like a shorthand to that, but in the end they may have different, um, motivations.

And so it's really important for us as, as food providers and stewards of brands, to make sure that we're a little bit more agile in our communications and ensure that we, that we, we, we meet consumers where they might be and yeah. Um, and if we can move them down that continuum and that path towards better, healthier, um, you know, more sustainable, , you know, our responsibility is as food manufacturers and, um, as providers of food.

Um, you know, it's, it's, it's, we're in really important roles and positions so that we can, we can move on that path, whether or not they're completely aware of it or what their level of awareness is. Um, we're helping them along and that's, that's what we view our mission.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah, I think that's exactly right, that it's imperative among large food companies to become more [00:48:00] sustainable.

And the way to win through that is to make sure that the products that are the most sustainable are also the best tasting and the cheapest and so on. And of course that's a very hard thing to do. It's easy to say it on a podcast that it, that's the key, that's the goal. But I, I do believe that if those aren't also met you, you know, it's, it's just gonna be, continue to be a niche product.

I mean, you look at plant-based meat today and it's still by volume is far less than 1% of all the meat that's produced in North America and e even less than that around the world. Yeah. Uh, and so, you know, the reality is that that's often because it either hasn't competed on taste or even when it has, it's still selling at multiples over the price of commodity meat.

Um, you know, most plant-based meat today is sold for, you know, not 30 or 40% more expensive than meat, but usually like 300 or 400% more than, than on a per pound basis than. Animal meat is sold for. And when you're dealing with that, it's really hard to escape the niche category and become mainstream. And I think one of the key lessons to [00:49:00] learn from the ascendants of plant-based milk has been to actually compete on cost and not just on sustainability.

And that's why plant-based milk has been such a much bigger success story than plant-based meat is both, uh, for taste and cost reasons. I

Adam Grogan: think. Yeah, we, we, you know, we, we've, um, the way we've thought about this, Look, you know, we, we've been under some criticism in the past about, you know, look at, there's this animal protein company that owns this plant-based protein company.

And there's been some questions about motivations or, or, um, or us as, as an animal protein company, uh, as an, as an ownership. And I think it is important to, to point out as well as that we, we are an independently operated company here in, in the United States under the Greenleaf Foods, um, company that owns Field Roast and Light Life.

However, we are owned by Maple Leaf. And one of the things that we, we try to, you know, we try to do is to try to leverage, like what you heard from Jindra a little bit is leverage what we know from, from, from animal [00:50:00] food production and try to translate that into plant production so that we can drive those costs down.

Because, you know, that's something that's super important to us in the sense of like, how do we scale these businesses faster? You know, and we, we, the world can't survive on animal protein alone. If you look at these growth rates, . Um, at the same time you have, you know, one in nine people are undernourished while 2 billion people in the world are overweight.

So, so the food system and those who within it, um, it our own, own this situation. And so our view on this is we think we, we can make a really big difference by, uh, by, by not only investing, but promoting and, um, innovating in this space to provide some alternatives to, um, to, to the outcomes that, uh, if we're not here, that that wouldn't be ones that we would be tenable.

So, uh, that's, that's gives you a little bit of perspective as how we think. [00:51:00]

Paul Shapiro: Yeah. Well, to give you a slight, uh, a small window into my end thinking on it, I don't think that it's gonna be possible to have the type of transformation of our global food system that we need without having the major meat companies involved and actually embracing and benefiting from the move toward alternative protein.

And the story is told many times, but you know, if you look at, for example, what happened in film, You know, you had Kodak and Canon vying for supremacy for decades in the print film market, and they both knew about digital in the seventies and the eighties, but only Canon embraced it. And we all know what happened.

You know, Kodak went bankrupt, and Canon is now the largest manufacturer of digital cameras on the planet. And so I really believe that forward thinking meat companies that embrace these, what are today called alternative proteins, but tomorrow will just be I, I think part of the port protein portfolio of the world are going to become the canons and those that have their head in the sand and try to resist or don't [00:52:00] embrace the innovation that we're seeing today.

Are gonna be more like the Kodaks. And so, um, I'm grateful that you guys are doing such a, a good amount to help to em embrace plant-based protein and alternative protein in general and are going to not just triple the size of these companies like Field Roast, but hopefully, uh, you know, uh, 30 x them in the years to come.

So, on that note, let me ask you, uh, obviously I'm sure you guys think about a lot of, uh, things in the, in the alternative protein space or, or in the business space in general. Are there any ideas out there that you guys wish that somebody else would do? Like start a company to do X or solve some problem that you think would help to advance this space and let ja tendra, let's start with you here.

What do you think, what are you hoping some listener may go and end up in invent here? There are two

Jitendra Sagili: areas, Paul, for me. You know, living on the living in the design element and r and d aspect of it, you know, and there are two areas that definitely has such a [00:53:00] potential. For anyone to start and be part of.

The number one thing is the plant-based, uh, functional ingredients at a, you know, like developing these functional ingredients, whether it's for great taste or texture, flavor, aroma, color, uh, with clean ingredients and, and, and the delivers like the, you know, the, the taste and mimics, you know, some of the meat mimicking all that at a cost.

Like if you, if, if, if, um, if the, the work is still such a nascent stage

Adam Grogan: and

Jitendra Sagili: you know, lot, you see so many entrepreneurs thinking in the finished product, but you know, I know that, you know, from your, uh, experience or your company Better Meat company, you guys offer those ingredients, right? So to just put it in a, in a B2B scenario where you put it in your product and it's ready to go, similar to that, you know, the plant-based ingredients, um, the functional ingredients, it's such an area.

For anyone to pursue, right? You know, to deliver, um, the [00:54:00] best, uh, possible. Uh, these, these, these ingredient ingredient technologies that helps the finished product. At the end of the day, we all talked about from last one hour, the number one thing that drives the, this movement is taste. And, you know, you, you, you see, you know, like, it, it's incredibly important and that's where we are struggling, you know, and then the sense of, you know, to utilize this multitude of different source of proteins, whether are, so IP flour, all of these, you need to have these functional in ingredient systems, flavor for flavor, texture, color, performance, process, performance, and all that needs to be there at a, at a lower cost.

And right now the cost is of, you know, absolute, uh, you know, high. And also the availability of technology advancements is, you know, I wish like we, we progress faster. So that's number one. Number two, Is about the manufacturing space. You know, there is such a le, such a need for manufacturing, [00:55:00] um, of plant-based, uh, uh, products.

Um, you know, we are, we are fortunate and, and blessed to have, uh, maple leaf, uh, uh, network systems, manufacturing systems. But most of the, uh, entrepreneurs focuses on startups and, you know, technologies. But manufacturing is such a scarcity right now. You know, like you have to, you know, at the end of the day you have to produce the product.

You know, you said like less than 1%, you know, right now in the plant-based building, can you imagine like, to go to 10%, how much manufacturing, uh, power you need? So it is incredible that nobody is even tapping into that space in terms of either co-man manufacturing and or having that manufacturing abilities.

All these companies are all startups or everything is a tech, tech based, but there is nobody thinking that way in the, in the manufacturing, uh, capabilities of the plant-based protein. So those are the two I think, that are, that really, really, um, you know, I would say, uh, have high potential for

Adam Grogan: someone to.

Paul Shapiro: Very cool, [00:56:00] great ideas. And I think that it's, uh, it's intriguing to me the difference between the machinery that may be needed for plant-based meat manufacturing versus animal-based meat manufacturing. And, uh, listeners of the show will remember Christie Middleton from Rebellious Foods, uh, talked about their inventions to try to create machinery that can more cost effectively, make plant-based to meat and, and bring that, that cost of production down.

So hopefully you guys can connect with, uh, with the folks at Rebellious Foods and, and talk about that. But what about you, Adam? Are there any ideas that you hope a listener might pursue in order to try to make the world a better place here?

Adam Grogan: Well, I, I have one that is, uh, near and dear to my heart that hopefully the same with your, with your audience is, um, The number one issue that we have, um, in terms of our packaging side of things is our barrier film.

And that is the film that is used, uh, to protect the food products from oxygen. And unfortunately, today, we have not been able, uh, as a food [00:57:00] industry globally to find alternatives yet. And I, and I say yet because I'm optimistic to, uh, have recyclable components, uh, that still retain oxygen or, sorry, keep oxygen out of products and while still maintaining self life.

And what's interesting to me is we talk a lot in the food industry about sustainability. At the same time we talk about food waste. And so it's imperative for us and, and cost, and it's, and it's imperative for us to have products that have shelf life, uh, freshness, taste great. They can travel so you can make them at scale.

but at the same time, um, move us just to get over that hump. I mean, I can get the latest packaging we have that's come out for us on Lightlife and Field Roast is 90% recyclable. And the difference between getting to a hundred is those barrier films that, that, uh, that we use to seal our product. And so if anyone can crack the code there, I think, [00:58:00] uh, there is a multitude of opportunities for, for that individual or that company, um, be quite successful.

I'll be the first one in line to, to want to hear the.

Paul Shapiro: Very cool. Well, uh, that's awesome. Well, um, we interviewed, uh, NPLA, I don't know if you've ever heard of that company, but it's, uh, n a, excuse me, N O T P L A, uh, which is a startup making some really interesting, um, uh, edible plastics that you can use that are, I don't know, I guess they're not technically plastics, but plastic alternatives that are edible that you can use.

I think they're partnered with Unilever on some like, uh, product packaging of theirs as well to put like condiments in there. So you don't, those little packets of ketchup or mustard or whatever, uh, you can just eat them . Uh, so, so that's, uh, that's one. But, but, uh, we've actually, you know, we've actually interviewed a number of some of these.

Uh, plastic alternative, uh, companies on the show before, including, uh, Lori Goff from Outlander Materials, and she is using, uh, a type of [00:59:00] biotech fermentation to create alternative plastics using beer brewery waste, uh, which was really cool. So she was basically subjecting beer brewery waste, like the spent grain to a type of fermentation that was creating like a plastic wrapper that wasn't made of plastic at all.

It was, it was all, all, all natural made. So, uh, anyway, uh, I'll email you afterwards. In fact, I'll include in the show notes, links to those episodes should you want to go back and, and check them out. But that, uh, a good idea and, and I hope that, uh, somebody will, will take you up on that and just know that you'll have a, a huge customer in Maple Leaf when you start that company to start giving them some type of a recyclable film that they can put on there.

Okay. Finally, guys, I wanna ask you then, um, Jindra, we will, we'll go with you first and we'll let Adam close us out. Are there any resources that have been helpful for you, um, whether it's food science or business or anything else that's been useful that you would recommend to listeners that you hope that they might get some use from too?

Uh, yeah, I mean, like I have, uh, I would

Jitendra Sagili: say, uh, couple of books I've [01:00:00] been, uh, reading, uh, actually recently. Uh, one, one is, uh, the Mind Gut Connection. Paul, I don't know if you, if you heard the book, it's called Mind Gut Connection, uh, about how the hidden conversation within our bodies impacts our mood, our choices, and our overall health.

Uh, it's a book by, um, , uh, Emron Meyer. Um, it's. It's, it's pretty interesting, you know, how you, how you see the, uh, the human microbiome and how that, you know, again, coming into the fermented foods of whether it's prebiotic, probiotic, how it, uh, you know, the, the microbiome, the gut health is such an important factor, uh, to understand, um, the, the, the overall health or mind and body connection.

So that's one, one of the, one of the books I'm, um, you know, still reading and still into and cool. And yeah. And there was another one, um, about the food waste, which I intend to read. Um, once I'm, [01:01:00] once I find some time in 2021, uh, in the middle of pandemic and having kids in the school, you know, e e e e-learning at home.

So it's called Food Foolish. I dunno if you heard about this food Foolish, the hidden connection between food waste, hunger, and climate change. There are two authors, which is, uh, John Mandy and, uh, Eric Schultz. So those are the two books. Um, I entered to finish in 2021, .

Paul Shapiro: Very good. Well, I'll put those on my list too.

This certainly sound interesting. Uh, how about you, Adam? Anything that you would recommend for folks that has been useful for

Adam Grogan: you? You know, I, uh, I know there's probably lots of different business books and, um, and books on, on, on social consciousness and business, but I, I had a couple that are just really relevant to me right now.

So we've, uh, at the office, we've been, um, uh, promoting, uh, vegan area, uh, is obviously really big right now. So my books are more, uh, cookbooks to be honest. I've barely been experimenting. I've always been, [01:02:00] uh, predominantly plant-based. But, um, I've really tried to embrace, uh, vegan and. One of the, one of the books that I've used is, uh, uh, wicked Healthy, which is by Chad Sar Sarno, uh, who's to work with us in the past at Field Roast.

And, um, it's a, it's a, it's an incredible book, and I've used it, a couple of the recipes in there. So if any of the audience is looking for really, uh, bold, um, flavor and really outta the box kind of recipes that aren't another stew or, um, you know, something boring, I think it, they've, they've, they've really done a nice job.

Paul Shapiro: Nice. Well, I'm a, I'm a huge fan. I know you're gonna recommend one more, but I'm, I just wanna say I'm a huge fan of both Chad and his brother Derek Sarno. And I think that these are two guys who have done more to advance the, uh, demand for plant-based food and interest in plant-based food than almost anybody else on the planet.

So, uh, I, I, I will very eagerly link to, to, uh, that book in the show notes for this episode. And Adam, what's the

Adam Grogan: other one? The other one that I wanted to talk to you about is, um, or to is, uh, [01:03:00] the Noma Guide to Fermentation is, uh, Jindra has been all over me. To get educated. We talked, we started the show off on Tempe and you know, this notion of fermentation food, fermented foods.

I think a lot of people, um, talk about them, but really deeply understanding the science behind it and the cultures, root cultures that are used. Um, they even have in the book, which is really super cool, is, uh, a way to do your own styrofoam incubator. So if anyone out there wants to geek out about fermented foods, I, I would really recommend it.

It's, uh, it's, it's some, it's not, it's not an easy read, let me tell you. It's thick. But, uh, it's something that I've really, really dove deep into cuz I really believe in the health benefits and the, the functional benefits of fermentation. So, um, nice two kind of different ones that I'd offer, offer, but, uh, ones that are on my list for sure and using them, uh, quite frequent.

Paul Shapiro: Well, very cool. Well, I'll tell you, um, first I am a big advocate of fermented foods as well, and I am going to be [01:04:00] trying a new one that I have never even heard of, but I bought it off of Amazon recently. It's like a Chinese fermented bean curd that is often referred to as fu ru. It's f u r u. Have you heard of this?

Adam Grogan: No. No. We've, no, we, we do, we do a lot with chow, which is fermented tofu, but I'd wanna hear.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah, so check out fu fermented, be incurred, and you can get it on, on Amazon or in Asian markets. It's basically like a, uh, used as like a, almost like a sauce or like a cheese that you would put on top of other foods.

So I, I haven't tried it yet, but I do have it. I have the jar of it in my home and I, uh, my wife and I were gonna use it this weekend to try it as a fun thing to do. That's like, that's like our big ex big excitement during the pandemic of what to do. is to try some new fermented food. But I will also say in the, uh, in the interest of domestic harmony for myself, that you should also, Adam, check out my wife's latest Vegan cookbook, which is called The Friendly Vegan by Tony Yoko Moto and her co-author Michelle Can, so you're in Vegan Cookbook.

She got a check out, uh, [01:05:00] the Friendly Vegan, which is her, her third and latest of her cookbook series. So you can check that out too. Um, awesome. Well, it's great to talk with you both Jindra and Adam. I appreciate you guys chatting with me for the past hour and I appreciate everything you're doing to advance the alternative protein space, so thank you for that and I'll look forward to continuing to see you expand the space and get more field roast and more other plant-based meats into more and more intestinal tracks.

All right guys.

Adam Grogan: Thank you, Paul. Appreciate it. Thanks so much,

Paul Shapiro: Paul. Thanks for listening. We hope you found use in this episode. If so, don't keep it to yourself. Please leave us a five star rating on iTunes or wherever you get your podcast. And as always, we hope you will be in the business of doing good.