Ep. 199 - Forty Years of Farm Sanctuary: Gene Baur on What's Worked and What Hasn't

Animal Welfare
Written By Paul Shapiro

SHOW NOTES

Forty years ago, Gene Baur cofounded Farm Sanctuary with the idea: If people could see what happens to animals on factory farms, they’d change what they eat. Four decades later, Americans are eating more meat, and far more animals are being slaughtered for food. So what will it actually take to reverse that trend?

Gene is a longtime friend of mine, and for many years we traveled the country together waging numerous campaigns to outlaw some of the worst animal farming practices. While we work together less often today, I had the pleasure in 2023 of hosting Gene at the BMC Ingredients mycelium fermentation factory that I run in Sacramento, and we of course keep in touch otherwise. In this conversation, Gene and I share our thoughts on what’s worked for farmed animals, what hasn’t, and whether better technology or other approaches can accomplish what appeals to compassion haven’t.

We also discuss his valuable new book, Farm Sanctuary: The Story of a Movement, and his vision for how sanctuaries can help pave the way for a more compassionate world, including through paid vegan hospitality. And you’ll hear how one visit to Farm Sanctuary thirty years ago changed my own mother’s eating habits for good.

DISCUSSED IN THIS EPISODE

get to know gene baur

A pioneer in the field of undercover investigations and farm animal rescue, Gene has visited hundreds of farms, stockyards, and slaughterhouses, documenting the deplorable conditions. His pictures and videos exposing factory farming cruelties have aired nationally and internationally, educating millions about the plight of modern farm animals, and his rescue work inspired an international farm sanctuary movement.

Gene was instrumental in passing the first U.S. laws prohibiting inhumane animal confinement and continues working on systemic food industry reforms. His work has been covered by major media outlets including ABC, NBC, CBS, Fox, the New York Times, LA Times, and Wall Street Journal among others.

Gene Baur has been hailed as “the conscience of the food movement” by Time magazine and named one of Oprah Winfrey’s SuperSoul 100 Givers.

TRANSCRIPT

Gene Baur 0:00

We need to create a system that makes the vegan choice the easiest and more most convenient choice. So that is increasingly where I am. It is more systemic, less based on human compassion, more based on convenience. And I kind of hate to say it, but I think that that's really what we've learned over the past 40 years.

Paul Shapiro 0:20

Welcome to the Business for Good podcast, where we spotlight people making money by solving some of the world's most pressing problems. I'm your host, Paul Shapiro, author of a nationally best-selling book on food sustainability, and CEO of a company in the same space. On this show, I speak with founders, investors, and thought leaders who prove that doing good and doing well can go hand in hand, the biggest challenges facing humanity are solvable and are often profitable too. My hope is that this podcast informs, inspires, and maybe even helps repel you to build a business that makes the world a better place. I'm glad you're here. Welcome, friend, to episode 199 of the Business for Good podcast. Now, if you've been listening to the show for a long time. You may recall that we had a very special guest for episode 100, the legendary venture capitalist and billionaire Steve Jervetson. It remains to this day one of our most popular episodes. Well, we've got another special guest for episode 200. We've who the guest is as a surprise, but we get into all types of deep questions, including examining the claim of some these days that there's allegedly no ethical way to become a billionaire in the first place. Stay tuned. This episode is also a great one. But before we get to it, I'll offer you your random wild fact. I recently learned that the original meaning of the word decimate is nothing like how we use it today. We think of decimating as totally exterminating, right? However, the term comes from an ancient Roman military punishment, executing one out of every 10 soldiers in a Roman army unit. Commanders used it to punish troops for things like mutiny, desertion, or cowardice in battle. The unlucky soldier was chosen by lottery, and the lucky nine unit members had to kill their own unlucky 10th comrade. Something to remember the next time someone waxes nostalgic about the so-called good old days, they weren't that good. Okay, on to this episode. 40 years ago, Gene Bauer co-founded a farm sanctuary with the idea: if people could see what happens to animals on factory farms, surely they would change what they eat. Four decades later, however, Americans are eating more meat than ever before, and far more animals are being slaughtered for food than ever before. So, what will it actually take to reverse that trend? Gene is a longtime friend of mine, and for many years we travel the country together, waging numerous campaigns to outlaw some of the worst animal farming practices. While we work together west often today, I had the pleasure in 2023 of hosting Gene at the BMC Ingredients mycelium fermentation factory that I run in Sacramento, and we of course keep in touch. Otherwise, in this conversation, Gene and I share our thoughts on what's worked for farm animals, what hasn't worked, and whether better technology or other approaches can accomplish what appeals to compassion have not. We also discuss Gene's valuable new book, Farm Sanctuary: The Story of a Movement, and his vision for how sanctuaries can help pave the way for a more compassionate world, including through paid vegan hospitality. You also hear how one visit to Farm Sanctuary 30 years ago changed my own mother's eating habits for good. As always, here are your three key takeaways from this episode. One, convenience matters more than awareness alone. Gene says that 40 years of advocacy have taught him that animal-free food choices need to be easy, accessible, and appealing, not just ethical. Two sanctuaries could help fund their own impact. He envisions that rather than relying on philanthropy alone, vegan hospitality, food production, and visitor experiences could generate revenue for sanctuaries while still inspiring change. And finally, perfectionism can undermine progress for animals. Gene advocates meeting people where they are and encouraging practical steps toward eating fewer animals rather than demanding all or nothing. Okay, I will let Gene tell you the rest of the story. Gene, what a pleasure to welcome you to the Business for Good podcast.

Gene Baur 3:53

So great seeing you, Paul.

Paul Shapiro 3:54

It's really great seeing you two. You and I have done so much together over the last few decades, from waging ballot initiatives together to try to help farmed animals, to running races together, and despite the fact that you are, I think at least a decade older than me, you always beat me in these races, which always was like really humbling to me to know how much faster you were than I am.

Gene Baur 4:15

I think there's one way, one race I remember where I beat you by one second, but otherwise you're you've really stepped it up, man, and I've sort of slowed it down a bit. And since then.

Paul Shapiro 4:25

That's very nice of you. I of course remember that. I didn't want to seem too self serving to say that I was one second behind the great Gene Bauer, but it is true. I lost by one second. There should be some handicapping considering the age gap. So I'm I my hats off to you for being such a stellar runner and a great athlete. I want to first tell you a quick story. So I was just thinking about this right before we were recording. We're recording this in September of 2026, but it was in July of 1996, 30 years ago, nearly to the month that I told my mom that. For my birthday, the only thing that I wanted was her to take me to Farm Sanctuary. This time, I was a high school student, so we went up from the Washington D.C. area to Watkins Glen, New York, and we visited Farm Sanctuary in that summer of 1996. And to this day, 30 years later, my mom has not eaten a single land animal because of that trip, and she said that if Farm Sanctuary had rescued fish, that she might be a full-fledged vegetarian. Amazing! Amazing. Well, we got to start thinking about how do we help fish now. Yes, yeah, I agree. But I also was thinking, you know, so you you have this new book out. Congratulations! We'll certainly talk about that. But I was also thinking, what's happened in those 30 years, or let's say since 1986, a decade earlier, when you co-founded Farm Sanctuary, and I wanted to start out just by asking Eugene, like in 1986, when you co-founded Farm Sanctuary, like what did you imagine the world might look like 40 years later? Would you say that we've made more or less progress for farmed animals than you would envision 40 years ago.

Speaker 1 6:02

Yeah, well, in 1986, I wasn't thinking about 40 years later. I was just thinking about you know exposing the abuses of animal agriculture, showing people what was happening, and we kind of had this sort of naive belief that if we showed people how horrible factory farming is, everybody would go vegan. So that was kind of the mindset at the time, and we also did not have a long-term plan for farm sanctuary. We were just very much focused on showing people what was going on. But things evolved, and you know, you learn one thing leads to the next. And we have sanctuaries now in New York, in California. We recognize that we can't rescue all the animals, and our rescues actually started out of our investigations, where we'd find living animals literally in trash cans or left on piles of dead animals. So, so we started rescuing them. That was not the initial intent of our investigations, but it was a result of them. And we've also come to recognize that, and we've known this since the beginning. You can't rescue all the animals, so you also need to do education and advocacy, and ultimately change the system. So, to your question, or do I feel we're further ahead or further behind than I would have guessed in 1986? I think there's more awareness now about factory farming. So, in that sense, I think there's been some progress. I think meat consumption continues increasing, which is problematic. I think that there is a conversation about farm animal welfare, which is a mixed bag. It's positive that people are talking about the experiences of cows, pigs, chickens, and other animals in the food system. But unfortunately, a lot of those conversations now are being sort of driven by agribusiness marketing campaigns, making things sound better than they are. So it's a mixed bag across the board. But you know, this is a critically important issue. I think it's very relevant and timely, more so in fact than ever, given climate issues, social justice conversations, and people in this country kind of asking themselves, what are we doing, and how can we ultimately live in a way that is more meaningful and aligned with compassion and aligned with our own well-being?

Paul Shapiro 8:11

Okay, because you know, I agree. Like I am very heartened to see that you know if you go back to I'd say 1986 when you started the organization in 1996 when I first visited Farm Sanctuary. The situation for farmed animals seems categorically worse today. Awareness seems higher, and we do have some laws that we have passed as a movement to restrict some of the worst abuses in some states. But you know, I was looking this up like in in 19 at that time in 1986 like per capita meat demand in the United States not on total population just per person was around 196 pounds that's meat and poultry not including aquatic animals today it's 232 pounds right so people are eating Americans are eating substantially more pounds of meat every year than we were 40 years ago, and of course, there's also more of us, and so that means the number of animals who are being factory farmed, since virtually all these animals who are raised for food are factory farmed, you know, has basically doubled from them. There's roughly 5 billion farmed animals in the U.S. going into slaughterhouses, of course, overwhelmingly chickens in 1986, and today it's about 10 billion. And it makes me wonder. Like you mentioned that the original theory of change was, well, let's expose what happens, increase awareness, and that will lead people to change. That obviously seems not true. I'm sure you and I both agree on that. So, what will get people to change? Like 40 years on, that theory has not worked. Increasing awareness of the tortures of animals on factory farms. But what do you think will actually work? Like, if you and I are still alive 40 years from now and we're talking, what will happen that will we just say, okay, well, it was 10 billion animals then, and now it's 5 billion, or now it's 2 billion, or now it's zero. Who knows? What do you think it will actually take?

Speaker 1 9:59

I think. That sometimes they say like necessity is the mother of invention, and I think that like a collapse of the ecosystem and disasters, and you know a recognition that you know this is unsustainable. That is one pathway. Another pathway is that you know advocates and businesses collaborate to make vegan food and vegan choices much easier, more accessible, and more normal. And I think that you know the initial instinct we had was that humans are conscientious actors who are going to make conscientious choices because they care and want to act ethically. I think people want to see themselves as acting ethically, but also people have a very strong tendency to rationalize things and and tell themselves they're doing things humanely when in fact they aren't. So I think that you know rather than kind of leaning into human consciousness and conscientiousness and the desire to make choices that might not always be the easiest choices, we need to create a system that makes the vegan choice the easiest and more most convenient choice. So that is increasingly where I am. It is more systemic, less sort of based on human compassion, more based on convenience. And I kind of hate to say it, but I think that that's really what we've learned over the past 40 years.

Paul Shapiro 11:22

Yeah, I think that makes eminent sense. I do think most people would like to see themselves as acting ethically, but we are such self-rationalizing creatures. Like even mass murderers, you know, see themselves as acting ethically. But more than us wanting to have ourselves think that we're acting ethically, I think we want other people to think that we are acting ethically, right? Like we're we're so concerned about social status as a species. I think the real key is like how how do you create a world if there is going to be ethically motivated dietary change in which these types of decisions are viewed as actually like subtracting from one's social status if you're eating these cruel products, or adding to your social status if you're eating these animal-free products, as an example, in the same way that you know people came to in some sectors of society, people came to look down on eating veal. Like if you ordered veal, it would be like a character flaw of yours. Or in the case of foie gras, that also seems seems likely in some sectors.

Speaker 1 12:19

You know, I think that this is about public awareness, messaging, and what is considered to be normal and appropriate behavior for human beings. And you know, again, we've heard the rationalizations that you know we've always eaten animals; they're there for that purpose. We need the protein that we derive from their bodies. All of those are myths, but those are parts of the machinery, the messaging machinery that we all live in. The way I kind of look at the work we do at Farm Sanctuary, and I think it applies beyond, is that we're each individuals with our lived experience and our embodied way of knowing the world. You know, and at the sanctuary we have rescued animals who are individuals, and it's very sort of embodied and subjective kind of experience of the world, but we're also individuals who live in communities where we learn from those around us. I grew up eating meat like everybody around me, without really even thinking about it. So we're individuals in communities, and we're influenced by our social interactions. And then we also live in a machine, in a structure that is oftentimes invisible, and today there are billions and billions of dollars being spent from Washington D.C. to enable factory farming, and so this is part of the machinery why fast food hamburgers are inexpensive or more inexpensive than they should be, and healthy produce is more expensive than it should be because of the machinery, the economic machinery we live within, but we also live within messaging and media machinery. You know where we're told factory farming is efficient and it's the best way to feed the world. Not true at all. But that's one of these messages many people hear. So a big part of I think the work we need to do now has to do with how do we educate people and challenge myths that the industry has been spouting forever, and then create machinery that will enable healthier, more humane choices.

Paul Shapiro 14:09

Yeah, I do like that too. It's not lost on me that there are plenty of plant-based protein sources that are much cheaper than meat, like lentils and beans and so on. But people really like meat, right? Like I don't like. I just think that there's only so much education that you can do that's going to have somebody prefer lentil soup or a hummus wrap or a bean and rice burrito over meat. It's just you know hundreds of 1000s of years of evolution driving us to crave meat, and and I wish that weren't true. Like I don't say this because I like it. In fact, I dislike it. But you know, I just fear like you know, lentils are already so much cheaper than meat, and yet I just feel that it's not really an education campaign that's going to get people to switch from meat to lentils. In fact, I would like to see an experiment if lentils were literally offered free. How whether it would impact meat demand at all? Like, like if you made lentils free to people, not to food companies, but just individuals. Then would meat demand go down? I don't know. I would doubt it.

Speaker 1 15:04

All very interesting questions, you know, to explore and examine and think about. And you know, one thing I just would would ask is that why do you think people have this attraction to meat? And you know, is it inherent and necessary, or is it possible that it's part of our cultural upbringing? And you know, I think meat and power tend to go together too. So there's this whole other subconscious aspect of an attraction to meat. It seems like

Paul Shapiro 15:28

it's clearly not necessary. You and I have lived without meat for many decades, as have millions of other people. But whether it's natural or not, you know, I think I care less about that. Lots of things are natural that are undesirable. Is it desirable, or why is it desirable?

Paul Shapiro 15:43

Right, but yeah, I guess I would say, like in almost every single culture, as soon as people escape poverty, they start eating more meat. It's not just our culture; it's in China and Brazil and Mexico, even in India, which has the richest tradition of vegetarian on earth. Meat demand is going up there as hundreds of millions of people are escaping poverty and joining the middle class. And of course we want people to escape poverty and join the middle class. Obviously, but there is a side effect, which is increased meat demand, and it's a real problem. No, that's absolutely

Gene Baur 16:09

been the pattern, right? That's certainly been the pattern. But I just am wondering, like, why is that the pattern, right? Like, is it you know, with wealth comes more meat consumption, and you know maybe it doesn't just mean that. I mean, and why is that? Why does meat then become more desirable? You know, and I don't know this, but you know, I kind of think that there's a this. You know, whenever we eat meat, there's this sort of sense of entitlement that we're entitled to do this, right? And with wealth and power, sometimes comes a sense of entitlement. You know, so I don't know if there's anything there, but I just have this kind of gut sense that anyway, I want to believe anyway that people don't don't really desire it.

Paul Shapiro 16:47

Yeah, I would like to believe it too. Sadly, I think the cards have been dealt in a different way, but I want to get to this point that you made earlier, Gene, because I sensed a kind of equivocal feeling in what you were saying about these ballot initiatives and other K tree campaigns that you and I spent years waging together. You know, you you go back to I mean, I remember in 1998 I was working on the Ohio Mourning Dove campaign. This is a ballot initiative to ban mourning dove hunting. We got enough signatures to get on the ballot, but ultimately we lost the vote. But I remember talking with the leaders of the time of the campaign and saying, "Hey, what about farmed animals? And you think we could do a campaign on farmed animals sometime to ban various factory farming practices, like the EU was doing at that time? And I was told, "Well, it's just people aren't ready for that. Like you know, people are barely even ready for doves, let alone chickens, right? And then in 2002, Amendment 10 comes along, and it's really revolutionary, right? The animal movement succeeds in banning gestation crates in Florida with Amendment 10, and then we went on what I call like a Sherman's March of these ballot initiatives, where you know you and I and numerous other people traveled the country for many many years, going from Arizona to California, Oregon, Washington, and we passed like a spate of you know around a dozen or so state laws, but through legislatures and ballot initiatives to restrict certain factory farming practices: battery cages for chickens, gestation crates for pigs, veal crates for calves, tail docking of dairy cows, banning the sale of foie gras in states like California, and so on. I think you know you look back on this, and I'm sure you would agree this was a really good thing to do. It was very good for animals, but I got a sense when you were speaking earlier that there was some equivocation that you felt about this, and and I wonder: is there anything that you think that we should have done differently, or is there anything that you think we should be doing differently now with regard to these campaigns to improve the treatment of animals who are going to be used for food?

Speaker 1 18:41

Yeah, no, really interesting questions, and you know, I think what we did at the time made sense. You know, and I think that we were able to limit some cruelty, which is good. I think we were able to mobilize citizens to step up and speak out to end certain forms of animal abuse. So I think those are all very good things. You know, we have seen how the industry has just fought back. It's like the Empire Strikes Back now. You know, and they're doing it in a variety of ways. You know, so legislatively, right? They're trying to undermine some of this work through the farm bill right now. They've been in court for decades, but they're also doing it in the public arena in terms of messaging and talking about cage-free eggs and humane animal production practices, for instance, so to me that is the where the battleground is now. The narrative around how we live and whether we can live. For me, one of the key messages is if we can live well without causing unnecessary harm, why wouldn't we? I mean, I've had debates with animal scientists, people, and so on, and I always say that if we can live well without causing unnecessary harm, why wouldn't we? And I think the campaigns you just described limit suffering in some ways, but we need to make sure that people understand that less bad conditions are not. Are not good conditions, and so that's part of the messaging here. We need to be careful of. I think

Paul Shapiro 20:04

one of the reasons why I think these campaigns were so useful is that they really rallied animal advocates around something tangible. Right? It's very tough to keep people motivated for something totally intangible, like just meat reduction or even vegetarianism, like where there's no real like campaign win. Yes, you might transform individual people, just like Farm Sanctuary helped transform my mom, but you don't get something like, "Hey, there's an election day, we're going to win or we're going to lose. Animal producers versus the animal advocates, like it's very clear what side they want to be on. There's going to be a win or a loss. It's going to be on a particular date, and that really is motivating for people. But recently, there have been more campaigns that have something similar, I think, to that. That I wonder whether you think the animal movement should be embracing more. I'll give you a few examples. Institutional campaigns, for example, let's say in Denmark, where livestock farms are now being taxed-not a meat tax on consumers, but livestock farmers for climate purposes are being taxed, or Amsterdam, where they have now banned public advertising of meat because of environmental reasons, or some of these institutional hospital campaigns and other campaigns, like in New York City, where they are doing default veg, where they can reduce literally millions of meat-based meals, not by persuading anybody to do anything different or to change anything, just by changing the choice architecture to make the plant-based options the first one that you get if you don't specifically request something else. Do you think there's room for these type of campaigns? Like the the animal movement for so long was focused on these campaigns relating to limiting the amount of cruelty that farmed animals endure, but I feel like far less, I mean, far less money and attention has gone into these types of institutional campaigns that really go more at the heart of meat per se, and not just practices of the meat industry.

Speaker 1 21:51

Yeah, I'm a strong advocate of those types of institutional reforms. I think you know, kind of relates a little bit to what I was saying before about how we just need to change the machinery so that people make the choice that's easy. You know whether or not they're conscious of it, and I think there's a lot that can be done that way. So institutions have a lot of influence on our daily behavior. Belief systems also do, but you know if institutions make plant foods more accessible and normal, and the default. I think we're that's how we make big progress. So I'm totally on board with that.

Paul Shapiro 22:28

Okay, so let me ask you then the more provocative question. Like you and I were basically for years part of this movement that was spending millions, actually 10s of millions of dollars, on these campaigns to ban battery cages, gestation crates, and so on, we both feel proud of that. But is there a pathway for the movement, including Farm Sanctuary, to lead spending millions of dollars on the types of institutional campaigns that you're referring to? Like, you know, you're in charge of farm sanctuary. You got millions of dollars. Obviously, some of it is going to animal care, but is there room for Farm Sanctuary to lead these types of campaigns for institutional meat reduction campaigns?

Speaker 1 23:06

Yes, absolutely. And you know, one of the things we've worked on in Washington is to try to get SNAP dollars to incentivize the purchases of plant foods. You know, there's this thing called the Gusnip, Gus Schumacher Nutrition Incentives Program, where if somebody spends a SNAP dollar to buy fresh produce, they get two for the price of one. So that's the type of program that we're trying to advance in Washington. We've had a little bit of success with that, with that, but we want to do more. And at the state level, also we want to incentivize food as medicine, sometimes using federal money to get dollars into institutions, hospitals, schools, and and farms that are making plant-based foods more accessible. So we have a partnership with a group called the Green Rural Redevelopment Organization in North Carolina, and last year they delivered like 3 million plant-based meals as part of a food as medicine program. So yes, I'm totally on board with this idea of institutional engagement and shifting resources away from the animal agriculture world into plant-based food and agriculture.

Paul Shapiro 24:13

Yeah, I just wonder what can what what is the specific campaign that can motivate people? Like when you and I were waging Prop Two in California back in 2008, there were 4000 animal advocates across the state of California who came out and volunteered to gather signatures to put that measure on the ballot. 4000 people who took time out of their schedules to go out and collect these signatures. I don't know what it is. I don't know that you do either, but if you do, I'd love to know. Like, what is it on one of these types of campaigns to actually institutionally reduce meat demand, like in Amsterdam, again banning the you know banning advertising of meat, like that is something nobody would have predicted, and yet in one of the biggest cities, you know, one of the most influential cities on earth now, now they've done it. Like sometimes I wonder, like, do we have a poverty of ambition, like when? We see these things taxing livestock farmers in Denmark, the Amsterdam law that I just mentioned. Like, should we be aiming higher and motivating animal? I don't know if animal advocates are going to get motivated by making fruit easier to get on SNAP like that. I mean, it just it feels to me to be frank with you. It just feels like yeah, it's a good policy. I just don't know if it's the type of thing that you're going to rally 1000s of people around. Is there something that, like, like you know, you know, at the time it was basically Humane Society of the United States and Farm Sanctuary, or now World Humane War for Animals and Farm Sanctuary, who were leading these ballot initiatives? I doubt that Humane World for Animals right now is going to do more of these farmed animal ballot initiatives. Just maybe I'm wrong, but that's just the way it seems to me. Is there room for Farm Sanctuary to be leading these types of institutional campaigns that are going to rally 1000s of animal advocates again? We even had a ballot initiative for farmed animals, a statewide ballot initiative that was of this kind since 2018 with Prop 12 in California. That's eight years on. You know, like what is there a next chapter for this? Do you think?

Speaker 1 25:59

I'm sure there is. It's developing, but what I would say is that you know some of the campaigns you know you're talking about like banning gestation crates, banning veal crates, banning battery cages. Those are like I consider those red campaigns to stop stop certain cruelties, and those motivate people, right? So we've been able to motivate people by the pain they experience when they think about what happens to animals in these conditions, so that's really been a motivating factor. What I think also needs to happen now, though, is we align with broader constituencies. You know, the the animal rights activists might not be as motivated by eat people eating fruits and vegetables, but the person who's suffering from diabetes, you know, or heart disease might be right. So I think we need to broaden our constituencies and align with others who agree with at least part of what we're trying to achieve. You know, and Prop 12 now, right? In addition to animal activists trying to maintain the ban on gestation crates and to prevent industry's attempts to undermine it in the farm bill, there's small farmers also aligned, right? Because they support raising animals in a less cruel system. So there's common ground there. So you need to keep building common ground in terms of like something that's going to really get people motivated. One thing we're doing now at Farm Sanctuary on the green campaign side of things, the positive thing, as opposed to the red campaign, which they have different types of motivation. On the green campaign, it's people eating well and feeling good, right? Starting to exercise, you know, signing up to run a marathon. I mean, these are what you can do more than what we should stop doing. And so, at Farm Sanctuary now, you know, we recently put in a vegan cafe and a vegan garden, or a garden that provides food for the vegan cafe, and it shows what we can do. And I think you know, there in addition to like organized campaigns like Prop 12 and other things like that, there's also I think going to be grassroots community-oriented efforts where where people show up at a community garden, for example, right, and and do education about and provide recipes about eating plants. Now, again, that's not motivating in the same way as working to end the use of gestation crates and other cruel devices, but it's motivating in a different kind of community-oriented, personal well-being way. And at sanctuaries, like at Farm Sanctuary, we have overnight accommodations. People love coming and staying there, so this is that more embodied, inspiring experience of being on a sanctuary where being vegan is normal, where the animals are our friends, and even if people aren't vegan, they get to experience that, and it kind of touches them in a certain way. And so I think a lot of this is going to be grassroots, and some will be bigger organized campaigns as well. But those still have to take shape. I think.

Paul Shapiro 28:46

Yeah, I think they do. I've been disheartened by the the sense that this really does not seem to have like the same momentum in some ways on the public policy side as it did in you know from like the mid 2000 aughts to like 2018, but still a lot has happened. Obviously, like there's been a lot of good work that's been happening, and a lot of the corporate campaigns are also succeeding in that. And you know when we started, you know the percentage of egg laying chickens in America who were not in battery cages was like 2% and now it's close to half. Like that is a really major change that came about, and I agree with what you said. Right? It's it's not you know creating like Garden of Eden type conditions, but it is better. Like it seems certainly better, and I think that's something to be proud of. I do want to come back to something you said earlier, Gene. You mentioned about you want to make vegan options the more convenient, more affordable, and create you know help to create innovations that can do that. Let me put a provocative question to you, and you tell me if you think that I am getting it wrong. If you look at the ways that animal exploitation has been ended. In the past, it's virtually always been because of new technologies, right? So, you know, for 1000s of years, we plucked geese live for their quills, and we only stopped live plucking geese not because anybody campaigned for geese, but because metal fountain pens were invented. There's a better way to write, and quills became a relic of the past. For 1000s of years, we harpooned whales for whale oil. That really only stopped not because of a concern for whales, but because kerosene was invented and that decimated the whaling industry for 1000s of years. We whipped horses to transport us, and that stopped only because bicycles, cars, and tractors were invented, and it was a better way to do transportation and labor than horses were. And the list goes on and on and on. There's so many of these examples where you had a multi-millennia form of animal exploitation that was ended by a new innovation, not humane sentiment, not animal campaigns, and I'm wondering what is it that you think could be done now? Like, if you really look at this and you think, well, you know, we've been eating animals for 1000s of years-is it more likely that a humane campaign or humane sentiment or even changes to SNAP or people going to gardens and so on-like-is that likely to put a dent in those numbers compared to a new technology that might give people something to eat in the with the conditions that you mentioned earlier-that it's more convenient, more affordable, tasty, and so on?

Gene Baur 31:20

I think it could be a both and, right? You know, and and different circumstances occur. Like during World War II, Victory Gardens produced something like 40% of our produce in this country. That ramped up quick, right? So we have all these lawns today that could be turned into gardens, right? So I think though that you know, having innovators, businesses, you know, that use you know mushrooms, for example, to produce protein-rich foods that, for many consumers, would feel a lot like meat, are very positive. You know, so I'm a fan of all of the efforts to provide plant-based or other non-slaughter-based alternatives to animal foods. I'm all for that, and and I do take your point and and essentially agree that if we can come up with new technologies to replace the animal slaughter business, that would be very positive.

Paul Shapiro 32:15

Yeah, that seems non-controversial for people like you and me that that would be very positive. Let me ask it slightly more provocatively. You know, right now there. hundreds of millions of dollars of philanthropic dollars going to farmed animal advocacy. Right, it's been a revolution in the amount of money coming into farmed animal advocacy work in the last decade or so. But nearly all of that is going to make the lives of farmed animals less miserable. Right, nearly all of it is going into cage-free campaigns and gestation crate campaigns and so on. Which, of course you and I agree are are good things to do, obviously. But if somebody offered you the ability to bring millions, or let's say 10s of millions of dollars right now into farm animal advocacy, would you think it was better to put it into these types of innovations, like technology innovations? Would you want to do the you know institutional meat reduction campaigns like we were just talking about would you do sanctuary work? Like, what what would the what would the Bauer prescription be if you were the one in charge of that huge flow of money coming into the farmed animal protection movement?

Speaker 1 33:10

Yeah, well, I kind of live in the farm sanctuary movement, so my perspective would be that you know farm sanctuaries can be drivers of change, and you know we take a resource based approach to system change at Farm Sanctuary. So, we recognize we can't rescue ourselves out of this. So, a small number of rescued animals with compelling stories. So that way, you're kind of addressing, you know, costs in terms of the operation, and then compelling stories that are touching people. You know, the Dodo and other you know publications like this indicate that people really respond to that, and then creating experiences. You know, we want to transition the food system from animal exploitation to plant-based and a different attitude towards how we interact with other animals in the earth. Sanctuaries are ground zero for this. So when people come to the sanctuary, and the sanctuary, by the way, was a former animal exploiting operation, and it is now a sanctuary, right? And so you now have hundreds, if not 1000s, of sanctuaries around the world. Now each of those can become a game changer for individuals who then go out into their communities and advocate for bigger reforms. And there are, you know, industry efforts. There's a place it's called, I think, Fair Oaks Farm that gets 500,000 visitors every year. It's sort of like an industry promotion marketing thing. Sanctuaries could play a similar role, you know, obviously in a very different way. But it creates these experiences where people recognize what might be possible. You can live without causing harm to other animals, and the food tastes good, and you feel good about yourself, and you know you're connected to the earth, you're connected to your humanity. So anyway, I think that change happens at a personal level, but how do you scale it? I think you scale it through replication. That is how I think we have the biggest impact over time, as opposed to scale. Through consolidation, which makes me a little bit nervous because it kind of creates dynamics where you know there's power dynamics that sometimes aren't very good. So, so anyway, that so for me, I'm focusing on sanctuaries and what we can do to really have greater impacts. And ultimately, my ideal hope is that sanctuaries could be operated in a way where they have a very strong hospitality element, where they actually generate income instead of cost. Because right now, sanctuaries are very expensive, which is one reason you know certain philanthropists are not a big fan of sanctuaries. I think we can flip that. I think we can operate them in a way where they generate income and impact at the same time, and and you replicate that in different communities around the country, and and then you're also transitioning land. So in addition to caring for animals, these sanctuaries could be growing food, not at a commodity basis, but at a more artisanal basis. And then you also have value-added products, you have experiences, you have people learning how to grow their own food, and this is my ideal. So, and I realize that we're not there at the moment, but that's the kind of future I envision. And I think that sanctuaries can play a significant role. In addition, there will be businesses, you know, doing various things as well that I am very supportive of. But that's how I see sanctuaries playing a role.

Paul Shapiro 36:18

Do you want to get to shortly what businesses you think animals need to be formed? But I do want to ask you. I was listening to an interview of Peter Singer's. Peter Singer wrote Animal Liberation. The first edition came out half a century ago, and Tyler Cowen, the podcast host who was interviewing him, asked him, you know, 50 years on from the publication of Animal Liberation, if animals could ask you one thing, what would they ask you? And Peter Singer replied, "Why have you failed? Right. His answer was, "Why have you failed? Since Animal Liberation came out, there are more animals farmed for food than ever before. More animals being used in experiments than ever before, per capita meat demand higher than ever before. Even in the new edition of Animal Liberation, Peter Singer refers to his call for a boycott of meat as a dismal failure. Now, this isn't a condemnation of Singer. Obviously, this is his own words, and certainly nobody has done more than Peter to try valiantly to help animals, but what would you say? You're 40 years on. You've just published this new book, Farm Sanctuary: The Story of a Movement, which is a very good book. I really enjoyed reading it and seeing so many of my friends' faces in there, and so on. But what do you think animals would ask you? 40 years on since the beginning of Farm Sanctuary, if they could interview you rather than me, what do you think they would ask you?

Speaker 1 37:42

What have you learned, and what can we do better? What can

Paul Shapiro 37:47

we? What what what have you learned, and what can we do better?

Speaker 1 37:49

Humans are complicated, you know, and like I mentioned earlier, I think we're individuals who live within certain ecosystems, community and structural ecosystems, and so we need to attack this at every level. You know, at the structural level, but also at the community narrative level, and then at the individual level. And I think another thing I believe is that humans are more emotional than rational. So ideally, we want to help people feel good about doing the right thing, and and that means we don't condemn them as a as a young vegan activist. I you know was a finger wagger from time to time. I've become less so over over the years. I think having empathy and speaking to people where they are on their own journeys is absolutely critical. I think that the vegan movement can sometimes be a little bit too perfectionist, which I think has actually not served our goals and the animals very well. So I think we need to, you know, keep our ideals in mind, but also be practical and take the steps we can take. So, you know, this is an ongoing learning process. I still am learning. I think that the efforts we made years ago to end certain cruel confinement systems were valuable and played a role at a certain time. I think today, in addition to pointing out the problems with the current system, we need to develop the solutions, which really kind of goes to the point you or the question you asked earlier about you know technologies, innovations, ways to end animal exploitation, and I think coming up with alternatives that are better is one of the best ways to do that. And this is where sanctuaries are occupying land in a certain way that is very different than a factory farm will occupy land, and for me, it's about creating relationships of mutuality instead of relationships of extraction. And in the animal agriculture system, it's all about extraction: taking milk from animals, taking eggs from animals, taking the lives of animals, taking nutrients from the soil. You know, using petrochemical inputs, all that stuff. In a more mutually beneficial way, we're interacting with other animals as friends, and there's no unnecessary violence between them, and everybody benefits as a result. You know, you contrast that with what it's like to work in a slaughterhouse, which is not good for animals and it's not good for people. So I think we need to model the kind of world we want to see, and then enable people to take steps down that path, eating more plants, fewer animal products, and I think that you know we're complicated creatures, human beings, right? And so we just need to help people feel good about doing the right thing, and also make it easier to do the right thing. Those are the the big prescriptions, I think.

Paul Shapiro 40:42

Yeah, you talk about how complicated we are, and the fact that we are emotional, not rational creatures. It reminds me of one of my favorite quotes, which is from Dale Carnegie, who wrote the book How to Win Friends and Influence People, and he said, "When dealing with people, remember that you are not dealing with creatures of logic, but rather with creatures bristling with prejudice and motivated by pride and vanity, and I, you know, boy, is that true? Boy, boy, boy, is that true? Yeah, it is sad. You know, it goes back to my feelings about the human desire for meat. I wish it were not true, but it seems like an obviously true fact to me.

Speaker 1 41:14

I think there's human potential too, right? There's human nature and the way we have been, and then there's the way we could potentially be right, so I think I keep the dream alive anyway.

Paul Shapiro 41:24

I do think that you do a good job of modeling what the type of world that you would like to see for sure. In in having been your colleague and your friend for many decades, I have consistently thought that about you. Okay, Gene, there are a lot of resources out there for people who want to learn about farmed animals, farm animal protection. Your new book, again, which is called Farm Sanctuary: The Story of a Movement, now Out, is one of them. But what are the resources if somebody's looking to get more active for farm animals? What do you think that they should check out? What what resources would you hope they look at?

Speaker 1 41:56

I mean, I think it's you get involved with a local gardening group. As funny as that might sound, right? And if there's a vegan going and being part of a gardening group and conversations, they can start talking about the plant-based, the benefits of eating plants instead of animals. I think there's some great documentaries now that people can get online. You know things like Game Changers, for example. You know Cowspiracy, of course, Forks Over Knives. There's podcasts like this one. There's a lot of great information, so I would encourage people to check those out and also share them with your friends. We are social animals; we rub off on those around us, and we only know what we know. And oftentimes, we learn things because somebody's told us about it. So each of us can play that sort of a role.

Paul Shapiro 42:38

Yeah, you know, when I ask people who are vegetarian or vegan what led you to become vegetarian or vegan, a long time ago they used to say, "Oh, I read Animal Liberation or whatever, and now they say, "Well, I saw a documentary. Like I just all the time I hear this from people. They either saw one of the documentaries that you mentioned, and we'll link to all of those in the show notes of this episode of businessforgoodpodcast.com, but it feels like film is such a powerful way to help motivate this type of sentiment, and not just documentaries, but also films. Like I recently published a list of what I think are the best animal protection films, not documentaries, but like films about animals, and you know we're such a storytelling animal that people love stories. Like facts and figures very rarely change hearts and minds. Stories normally do, including stories of animals, like you're talking about. You know, with the dodo and trying to take individual animals from sanctuaries and tell their stories. And it reminds me of, like for example, the success that Black Beauty had, which is to this day by far the best-selling animal protection book of all time, more than 50 million copies sold. And that book, despite being a work of fiction, it's the autobiography of a horse. the The book actually changed society. It created new laws, new standards for the treatment of horses. Like I mean, to the extent that now there are still like horse protection statues to Anna Sewell, the author of Black Beauty, and and so I I feel like these types of films really are are a strong contender to do something really good for Anna.

Speaker 1 44:13

I totally agree, and this again speaks to again the human complexity, right? And this is really about the consciousness and people having their hearts and minds and they're changed, and then they make a different choice. So that can still happen.

Paul Shapiro 44:25

Right. We need a black beauty like for a chicken, you know. Like that is really yeah. I'm actually reading our mutual colleague Kim Stallwood recommended a book to me called A Tiger for Malgudi, which I had never heard of. It's a it's a book by an Indian writer, and it's an autobiography of a tiger who is captured from the wild and brought into a circus, and he just tells the story beautifully.

Gene Baur 44:45

Yeah, it's it's it's about empathy. It's about empathy, right?

Paul Shapiro 44:48

Right. Yeah. It's a yeah. I agree. It's a first of all, it's an excellent book, so I appreciate the recommendation. But it is a it is a way to empathize in that you can actually see through the animal. Eyes, what their lives are like is really,

Speaker 1 45:02

and you can feel how if you feel that right, and you see another animal experiencing that, you know you're connected, right? That's that power. That's that power. Yeah.

Paul Shapiro 45:10

Somebody listening, we need you to write or or do a movie, which is a Black Beauty or Tiger from Alguti or something along that for a chicken. That would be really good. Finally, Gene, you have mentioned numerous times during this conversation the idea of new innovations, new technologies that will be able to create the meat experience for people without having to raise and slaughter all these animals. Other companies that you wish existed that don't yet exist. If somebody is sitting here thinking, "I'm really motivated to want to do something, I'm persuaded that technology and innovation is a great way to help reduce our reliance on animals as a food source. Is there some company that you wish would be formed by that listener right now?

Speaker 1 45:50

You know, it's there's so many different ways to go with this, right? And I think there's some really good work going to come up with alternative proteins. I think that and different ways to grow food that is less harmful, so that's very important. All of that, but I think messaging and marketing is much more important than we've realized in the past. So I think something along those lines, even hospitality-you know, really infusing vegan experiences into the hospitality arena could be really interesting. I think.

Paul Shapiro 46:19

Okay, interesting. You know, it's funny you mentioned messaging and marketing because I welcome the success of a company called like the Liquid Death, right? It's the canned water company, and it's literally just canned water. Like, there's nothing special about it, and it has hundreds of millions of dollars of revenue, a really high valuation. They've really done a lot, and their goal, you know, the founders' claim is they want to reduce plastic waste by doing metal cans, regardless of whatever the sustainability aspect may or may not be about it. Just marketing this has created a really popular brand of water, and I have wondered: is there something that could be done for like not not having to do with biotechnology, right? Like creating cultivated meat or even other fermentation-derived meats, but rather something with tofu or beans or lentils, where there's a marketing campaign. You don't need 10s or hundreds of millions of dollars of venture capital dollars in order to do this. You just need some really smart way to market this and to actually make some brand of tofu or beans or something that would actually be a meat replacement. My concern about fruit and vegetables is they're not really a meat replacement. Most most people don't think, hey, instead of a burger, I'm going to have an apple or an eggplant, right? They they they want something protein rich and satiating, and if it's not going to be some type of animal free meat, it could be tofu or seitan or some better way to make tempeh more attractive. I like tempeh, but I know it's not not exactly the most popular food, and so I wonder if there's some way to create a better marketed, branded thing. Like you know, Hodo has done a very good job marketing tofu, making it like the first really branded tofu that people look for. But is there some way to do something like that? So I'm with you that marketing and branding, and it may not be a new technology; it may just be a new new brand,

Speaker 1 47:57

a new application of it, and also it has to, I think, be sustained. Right? Sometimes there's like a big push, and then you get a bump, but it's got to be sustained, and so it's a long-term project, I think. And also, the quality of the product has to be there, so you have to have integrity in the messaging and the actual product. So those are other pieces of the bigger picture.

Paul Shapiro 48:17

Those are some of the pieces of the picture. Some of the wisdom from 40 years of Farm Sanctuary co-founder Gene Bauer, I'm really grateful to get a chance to talk with you about this, Gene. Again, the book is called Farm Sanctuary: The Story of a Movement. You can go out and get it anywhere books are sold. And Gene, I'll be rooting for you to have a successful book launch.

Speaker 1 48:34

No, so great seeing you again, Paul, and thanks for the good work you continuing you continue to do as well. And I look forward to our paths crossing again, hopefully very soon.

Paul Shapiro 48:42

Maybe they'll cross on the running trail where I actually pass you as we go. So

Speaker 1 48:47

that that would likely happen if we were on the same running trail today.

Paul Shapiro 48:52

Okay, thanks for listening to the Business for Good podcast. To explore more conversations like this one, visit businessforgoodpodcast.com, and be sure to subscribe so you don't miss future episodes with founders, investors, thought leaders, and more turning global problems into powerful opportunities. And if this episode resonated with you, please share it with your network. You never know who you might inspire to be in the business of doing good.

Paul Shapiro
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Ep. 198 - Who’s Still Hiring in Alternative Protein? Noga Golan on the Future of Food