Fishing for High-Margins in Cultivated Seafood: BlueNalu’s Path to Scale

by Paul Shapiro | April 12, 2024

BlueNalu is one of the better-funded companies when it comes to cultivated meat. Having raised more than $100 million, including about $35 million toward the end of 2023—a notoriously difficult time to fundraise—their founder and CEO Lou Cooperhouse is optimistic about their path to success.

But as you’ll hear in this episode, Lou isn’t working to compete against the commodity meats like chicken, pork, and beef. Rather, he’s pursuing a strategy to compete against products that are exponentially higher-cost, like bluefin tuna, which can often sell for more than $100 a pound.

In this conversation, Lou lays out his vision for a future BlueNalu factory with multiple 100,000 liter cultivators churning out some of the priciest oceanic delicacies. And because of this high price point, Lou thinks that his economic model is among the most attractive out there

We also talk about BlueNalu’s collaborations in Asia, Europe, the Middle East, and US, and what he thinks the biggest barriers to success are, and more.

Discussed in this episode

More about Lou Cooperhouse

Lou Cooperhouse is recognized as a leading global authority in food business innovation and technology commercialization, with extensive leadership experiences throughout his 40-year career in the food industry.  He is a results-driven professional, and has led cross-functional teams in a wide array of industry settings that include: multinational corporations, foodservice and retail operations, new business startups, mid-sized and family-run companies, university entrepreneurship and innovation centers, and industry trade associations.   With his deep and diverse understanding of the food industry, Lou has spoken at hundreds of conferences throughout his career, specializing in food trends, disruptive technologies, and global best practices in business innovation and incubation.

Business for Good Podcast Episode 138 - Lou Cooperhouse, CEO of BlueNalu

Paul Shapiro: [00:00:00] Lou, welcome back to the business for good podcast.

Lou Cooperhouse: Well, thanks for having me back, Paul. It's great to be connected again.

Paul Shapiro: You're you are the repeat here. there's only a few people who have the honor of repeating on business for good. So maybe if you come back here and be like the Tom Brady of the business for good podcast, but, I remember when you were on last time, it was about four years ago and I had gone down to San Diego.

You were very generous and invited me to your facility for a tasting. And I had some of your delicious, I think it was yellowtail. Wasn't that what I ate then? It was. And you, you graciously asked me to make a few remarks before a crowd that had assembled of journalists and staff and supporters and so on.

And I'll never forget your face when I started. I said, I've really enjoyed it, but I thought there was something missing. And I could see in your face the look of, of fright and horror. And then I said, what was missing? It seemed to be was the mercury and the antibiotics and other parts of fish and I can see the relief, come over you.

So even now, that's a kind of a favorite memory [00:01:00] of mine of my existence in the cultivated meat space. Very funny. Yeah. No, that was good. so it's been four years since I've tried your product. you've raised an enormity of money since then, including recently raising 35 million, toward the end of 2023.

So, first of all, congratulations on raising capital at a time when it's very difficult for many companies in the cultivated meat space to raise capital.

Lou Cooperhouse: No, thanks, Paul. And yeah, when you did, when you did visit us, 4 years ago, it was a very monumental occasion for the company. At that time, we were really proud to show that our product, yellowtail amberjack, was one of eight different finfish species that we worked on at the time.

And it was our demonstration that a product really was, something that presented all the functional attributes of its conventional counterpart. What that means to me as a food guy is the product could be prepared in a, in a, in its natural raw state. somebody who wanted to have sushi, could be prepared in a cooked state, meaning seared, [00:02:00] sauteed, pan fried, deep fried, or an acidified state, if you will, like poke, kimchi, ceviche.

And that was really, you know, kind of our proof of concept that we did in fact have a product that had all the same sensory culinary functional attributes. And it was real seafood just made this new way. And as you said, absent of mercury or plastics or pollutants or what have you. So a very exciting day for Banalo.

And that was hard to believe four years ago. And as you now know, we focused on bluefin tuna Toro as our first commercial product, given its global, consumer, interests, lack of access, clearly not sustainable. Also very high in mercury, at the highest level. In fact, Beloved around the world and when it's available, just not consistent.

So we're excited to offer a product that really, checks every single box, if you will, truly a superior value proposition to the consumer. you know, mercury plastics, toxins, pollutants to the food service [00:03:00] operator, consistent and accessible, a hundred percent yield, every single time. So it really is something that's, We're quite excited to bring to the market in the coming years.

Paul Shapiro: Well, I'm eager to talk about that. Exactly. About when you think that is going to be coming to the market. But let me just ask a provocative question about that. So, you know, you founded the company in 2018. If you were projecting back then in 2018, when you started this, that if you fast forward to 2024, and as we speak today, there is no cultivated meat on the market.

He just upside, they're not selling anymore. Blue Nalu is not yet selling. There's not one company that is selling. Would you have been surprised to hear that? Like, would you, were you more optimistic back then about the timeline for commercialization or would you have thought? No, that seems about right.

That by 2024, we won't have anybody selling.

Lou Cooperhouse: I have to say, Paul, I, I, it does seem about right. And I'll tell you why. Cause I, As you know, as you know, I've been in the food industry. It's hard to believe. I know it looks like I'm 20, but I've [00:04:00] been in the industry for 40 years now. And, and,and the first thing I always talk about for any entrepreneurs know what you don't know.

And boy, was there a lot that we didn't know when this industry started? And you know, well, from. Being an author of the best selling clean meat, soon to be second edition. All right. Kind

Paul Shapiro: of you. Thank you.

Lou Cooperhouse: And, and, but I think

Paul Shapiro: and I'll say the blue NOLU is in the updated paperback edition that is now out.

So you'll be pleased to know that you can start signing your own books when, when people go to visit the blue NOLU office. but sorry to interrupt you. So, all right, you were saying, it's not that surprising to you that nothing's on the market yet.

Lou Cooperhouse: No, and I'll tell you why, because, I started the company,it was very challenging, unlike any food industry ever before it, you know?

So what do I mean by that? Nobody ever propagated fish shells. So all the knowledge was, you know, existed on the terrestrial mammalian side. Propagating fish cells, creating stable cell lines. These species were absolutely unknown. We didn't know what would work. What didn't work. Obviously we wanted to develop a food grade supply chain did not [00:05:00] exist.

Either scalability did not exist either. You know, the food industry is about high volume, historically very low profit. You know, it's not unlike the farm industry, which was low volume, high profit. So it's a total game changer in how one thinks about scalability. So again, a food grade supply chain, non existent technology, of course, you want to do with an animal component, free basis, the regulatory.

Aspect was huge. So despite all the things that we might accomplish, no nation in the world, when I started the company had any regulatory approval, let alone methodology in place. So we're excited to see how far we've come there. And of course, no consumers ever heard about this. We didn't even know what nomenclature to use.

so again, you have so many challenges, not to mention your, you're actually in an industry that's based on cultural, even biblical in nature. highly supported and in fact, subsidized by governments around the world. so no shortage of [00:06:00] challenges. So look how far we've come in the last six years. In our case, we're very proud.

We have absolutely, we have, we have literally hundreds of stable cell lines across eight different finfish species with an animal component free media that we've developed. Patents in process, you know, fairly down, fairly down the pathway there, a food grade supply chain established. We're so excited to see regulatory approval now with three nations, with Singapore, Israel, most recently, and of course, America more to come.

Wow. Look how far we have come in just six years from so many challenges. consumer education is even becoming, you know, much more familiar. So we're excited to support in Asia. You know, so we come from an industry where there's no knowledge whatsoever and no, no intelligence from the consumer to one that's really on the, you know, really on the, on the leading edge of commercialization.

So a long, long way in 6 years and just, given so many constraints that we had, you know, [00:07:00] not that long ago. So for all the entrepreneurs in the space, you know, we are. We've really overcome a great deal. Yes, there's more work to be done. No question about it, but so many of the fundamental technology challenges are now being solved, you know, and scalability is obviously, next in line here, but without regulatory approval, without a food grade supply chain, without some core technologies and Amica point of free media, we would never have a market, but those things have not been solved.

So what's left is big, but it's certainly, we've overcome so much already.

Paul Shapiro: All right, so you're talking about regulatory approval as if it's already a given, but only a couple companies in the United States have received it. If you were to get regulatory approval to start selling it, I'm presuming you only need FDA because this is fish, right? You don't need, right? So unlike some of these other companies that are doing terrestrial animals, you, you will only need FDA approval.

So If you were to get that [00:08:00] today, reportedly you guys are producing hundreds of pounds of product a week at your pilot plant in San Diego. Would that then go into commercialization? Like, would you be selling hundreds of pounds of your fish as soon as you started, after you got the approval?

Lou Cooperhouse: We're, we're, we're not approving that level of volume of Paul today.

but obviously we have that wherewithal, you know, in the coming months, you know, it, it all depends on, you know, some, some manufacturing scale up that we plan to do, but, you know, candidly, our goal is not to be a manufacturer and we do not want to be in commerce. in any meaningful way until we have the capacity to, to really provide it.

So we are not in the, in the, we plan to, you know, when we have regulatory approval, yes, we plan to do some market introductions, some limited time offers, LTOs as they're called, but we want to do that to really get some feedback. we're not here to, to, to pretend we're in commerce, in a single restaurant, you know, with a small amount of volume, we're, we really want to wait till our whole, our whole goal at [00:09:00] Blanalo has always been, slow and steady, if you will, wins the race.

We're not here to, we want to get regulatory approval on a scalable process, and we are doing that. we are getting regulatory approval that will really enable us to get consumer feedback, to learn about product positioning and placement. We're, we're, we're launching with sushi and premium fine dining restaurants.

We're, we're, we're introducing something that hasn't even been available in this way before. It's consistent every time. It could be an appetizer and entree. We actually have a lot of interest from fine dining, catering, hotels, sushi establishments, Michelin starred establishments. So just a lot of inbound interest here.

And we're really trying to understand how much volume there could be. our goal, frankly, is to get offtake agreements, as a result of this, consumer,validation that we plan to do during the coming year. so again, it's, it's really not to launch into commerce and, you know, and then really not be able to come back with any kind of volume for a couple of years.

So we really want to [00:10:00] do any kind of commerce. We do it purely for educational purposes, market feedback, consumer validation, and frankly, to obtain,offtake agreements on, on volume. So our goal is, if you will, like the produce sector, you know, before people plant farms. they typically have a contract in place and we similarly plan to do the same thing.

We want to build our factory with contracts in place. We think it's very, very doable. Given the amount of market interest we've had in our products thus far.

Paul Shapiro: Okay. Well, that's exciting. So let's dive right into that then, because, reportedly you're seeking to build a 140, 000 square foot facility. You want to have eight, 100, 000 liter bioreactors.

Are those reports accurate?

Lou Cooperhouse: That's correct. Yeah. We, we actually, did a, techno economic analysis a couple of years ago. We've actually done it three times. Even in 2018, we did our first one. So I think that's really a very relevant story, Paul. I mean, Blue Nala was really founded based on how do we get to volume?

You know, what does volume [00:11:00] look like? So even in 2018 and year one of the company, we actually designed our first factory, just to kind of understand. You know, and really help the whole team. And one of the things I really want to talk to you about today is, is about how critical the team is in any company.

It certainly has been so valuable for us. It's thinking about large scale production from day one, everything we're doing, technologies that we're applying to enable global consumer adoption, to enable scalability, to really have a food grade supply chain and quality infrastructure in place as early as possible.

We're all about large scale production. So, yeah, we did this analysis in 2018. We did it again in 2020. We did it again in 2022. and each time, and, and to your point, so we did talk about 100, 000 liter bioreactors generating about 6 million pounds of 100 percent yielded bluefin tuna toro in our first large scale factory that can be quite profitable.

and, and you're, and you're correct. And about the size, about the footprint that you've [00:12:00] described there. so that is what we're calling Blue Noll one our first large scale factory. Nice. That we're, that we're working towards. So

Paul Shapiro: it, you know, in, earlier interview in this series, Josh Tetrick from Good Meat said that he needs to get the cost for his factories down to less than $200 million for it to make economic sense for him.

You've now done three analyses on what you think it might cost to do a blue Nalu one. What price point do you want to get to in order to be able to produce those 6 million pounds of bluefin?

Lou Cooperhouse: So I think, I think the, the way to actually ask that question, Paul, depends on the product that one is producing.

So, obviously other, other companies, including some you've interviewed, are working on, if you will, more commodity products that command a lower value.

Paul Shapiro: Right. They're trying to sell chicken at a couple of dollars a pound, right? Yeah. You're going to be selling at some multiple of that, right?

Lou Cooperhouse: That's exactly the point.

So we obviously have, our CapEx situation. We all have the [00:13:00] same CapEx, you know, challenge to actually create a substantial food volume in a reasonably. Capitalized factory here. that might look, you know, might seem more like an aseptic process facility for, you know, you know, aseptic juices or what have you, very expensive equipment, no doubt.

But I think what really unique about Blue Nalu and our whole focus from day one, if you will, is about value, not volume. And, and really, you know, this is the classic economist's kale situation. So we're focusing on high value, thin fish species, bluefin tuna is our first one. And the toro, which is the belly fat portion, if you will, it's the wagyu beef of the sea, is our first product that we're going to market with.

We can be a price parity and be very profitable, if you will. In our first factory, even at a facility costs of 200 million to 300 million. Okay, that's, that's the difference here is yes, the capex is a big deal, but [00:14:00] it's far less of a big deal when you're going after price parity for a, a conventional price point that is significantly, you know, literally 10 extra 20 X.

Of what you might get for a commodity chicken or seafood product.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah. So let me ask that, you know, if you look at bluefin tuna prices, it ranges dramatically from like 20 a pound to 200 a pound, depending on where it's from, what part of the body and so on. So are you targeting more like the 20 a pound or the 200 a pound price range when you're talking about this?

Cause if you're saying it's 10 times more, it sounds more like the, you know, the 20 a pound, but if it's all the way up to 200 a pound, is that what you're thinking?

Lou Cooperhouse: We're actually, we're actually going to find out Paul, what that price parity is, but you know, we're actually have learned from, we've done 85 different interviews to date.

we're doing a quite a bit more this year with, leading, food service operators, we've also interviewed, over 6, 000 consumers as well, with two, you know, both the customer and the consumer have been a truck, you know, an [00:15:00] area of great focus we've learned from sushi operators that you're right.

Bluefin tuna can range quite dramatically. in price throughout the year, what's absolutely loved is the Torah that only could be found from the bluefin tuna. whereas, a commie or some of the linear cuts can be found from other species and other tuna species, I should say. so, to answer your question, it's typically.

North of 60 or 70 bucks a pound, you know, and can be a hundred, 120 bucks a pound. So we're seeing a pretty wide range in that 60 to 120 range of what's typically the price point for blue tuna. Toro realize that blue tuna Toro as a component is typically not even found today. Typically, if I'm a sushi operator in Japan or Korea, what have you, going to market, I'm bringing in a, you know, a carcass of a bluefin tuna and I'm filleting that in the back with, you know, yield that my goal is obviously use the entire fish, but I have a Kami, Chuchoro, Ochoro, [00:16:00] cheek, you know, other parts of the body.

But those who are very familiar with, What the value is and how they actually price it on the menu, have told us that their range is between 60 to 120 bucks a pound and that, and that rain in that price point is expected to increase dramatically in the years ahead. Yeah. Yeah. So you can

Paul Shapiro: see how the IRR or the internal rate of return is actually pretty good on that.

If you are selling at a hundred dollars a pound, I'm just doing quick math in my head, but if it's at that upper range of 300 million in CapEx to build the facility, you're selling at a hundred million. excuse me, at a hundred dollars a pound. So you got to sell 3 million pounds to, get the, at least the revenue, not actually, you know, being the queer, but you have the revenue.

Lou Cooperhouse: Exactly. 6 million pounds, 6 million pounds. The pound is a very obviously 600, 000, 000 gross revenue in a factory that might cost two to 300, 000, 000. Right.

Paul Shapiro: And so, and if you have a margin of 70 percent has been reported as your target, you can see the IR is actually extremely attractive, presuming all of those numbers line up.

Yeah, [00:17:00] that's cool. Well, I hope that I'll get a slice for free and not pay 100 a pound, but I would pay 100 a pound to try it, I think. But still, so let's talk about where this factory is going to be. You've signed an MOU and taken some investment from the Saudi government to build your plant there, but I see you also have a partnership with Thai Union, the major,seafood company based in Thailand, our farms, who's CEO, Didier to be is also on this series and talked about how, he's going to build a pilot plant in Thailand.

Are, are you planning on building this factory in Saudi Arabia and Thailand? Now, where are you thinking that you're going to actually break ground when you do this?

Lou Cooperhouse: No, what was reported, Paul's we have an MOU with, with Neom in Saudi Arabia, but it's not to build a factory there, it's actually to work with them and a collaboration basis to help them establish the infrastructure.

Sure. for capacity for regulatory approval for market development and installation and so forth, but not, it's still commitment to build a factory there, nor is there one to build in Thailand or anywhere else. So we haven't made that decision yet, Paul. So, so we do have a lot of partners, as you know, around the globe.[00:18:00]

Our focus, however, is, is very heavily in Asia where. I, I think your, your listeners probably know this, but I'll say it anyway, but per capita consumption of seafood is somewhere between three to five X what it is in America and also in Europe. People love seafood in Asia. People love bluefin. In fact, that's where it's all sold as Japan and Korea.

So our target market is Japan and Korea, but also Singapore, Thailand, and the balance of Asia is certainly something that's very, very attractive to us. So. We do see, one of the first factories clearly being built in Asia. what nation? Not sure. the first one may in fact be built in the U S, location also, not sure, but again, it's, it's premature at this point, but we're just really trying to, again, part of our market research is really trying to establish where these offtake agreements will be and where we want to build that first factory.

And frankly, where the best incentives will come in, to construct that because we're, We're confident, but we need to see it that there will be some, you know, non diluted [00:19:00] financing, joint ventures that will make that decision for that first factory come alive during the next, 24 months or so.

Paul Shapiro: Nice. Yeah. I was actually in Thailand not that long ago and I was really shocked that not only is seafood consumption dramatically higher than it is in the U S I knew it was higher, but I didn't realize it was multiples higher, but that on a per pound basis per capita. The Thai people eat more aquatic animals than land animals on a per pound basis.

They eat very little beef. They, you know, good amount of chicken, but they eat more aquatic animal meat than terrestrial animal meat. Whereas, you know, you look in the U S it's like, we're eating like 220 pounds of terrestrial animal meat per year. And then, you know, maybe like 10 or 15 pounds of aquatic animal meat.

Whereas when you're looking at Thailand, it's actually more aquatic than land. So, you know, it's, it's really a, a stunning thing for somebody who has led a US-centric life to, to see those numbers. So, I, I think, you know, the product is definitely, [00:20:00] needed anywhere but maybe more needed in Asia than here

Lou Cooperhouse: for

Paul Shapiro: sure.

So, is the biggest barrier for you, the capital right now, Lou, like, is it, like, is the problem that you still need to make new inventions in order to bring the cost down or in order to actually scale up and build bioreactors that have never existed before? Or is it capital? Like if you, if somebody offered you all the capital you needed right now, would you still have to innovate?

Would there still be new inventions needed to scale or are you ready to scale today?

Lou Cooperhouse: The barrier pole is just time. So I think, you know, it is time and capital, but you know, when I say time, we have, because of our, our TEA, our technical economic analysis, we recognize, you know, the, the pathway to commercialization is about time.

It's actually. Demonstrating and transferring technologies that we've already established. So the good news is we already have the fundamental technology established. Now we are doing a tech transfer, not needed to reinvent technology at all. So the tech transfer is from, you know, you know, through through [00:21:00] the route from 250 to 2000 to 20, 000.

And perhaps beyond, to a hundred thousand as, as you've described, you know, that is our goal is to, you know, work our way up to a hundred thousand over again, it's about time. Each technology transfer, you know, can take six, nine months. but again, the next couple of years we plan to validate at 20, 000 and a hundred thousand liter.

so that's really our goal here is to see how far we can go. So we're building a factory based on already validated process at that scale, meeting the metrics that we've established at DEA, not just at the bench for the 250 liter. But it's a 20, 000 and beyond, you know, whatever that final end point is.

Paul Shapiro: The way that you're speaking already, offers the answer to this question, but I just want to ask it just to make sure there's nothing that you've learned in the last six years of running this company that makes you think that this isn't feasible, right? Like if you look at these obituaries that are being written about this industry, they're essentially alleging that this is just not [00:22:00] actually possible to scale, not that it's not a good idea.

But the critics in this brand of critic, at least is saying this is not even possible to do. I presume you vociferously disagree with that based on what you're saying.

Lou Cooperhouse: Oh, it's, it's, it's beyond possible. It's clearly possible. It will happen, Paul. I think what, to me, the way I interpret what any criticism is, It's just going to be challenging at some of the lower value products.

So, you know, I think the real question is that has not been really brought, you know, by the media is, you know, you know, I think it might've been said early on that this will displace a, you know, significant amount of American agriculture farming, you know, is this a category for ground beef? Is this a category for chicken nuggets?

Is this a category for fish sticks or is this a category for steaks? you know, and, and higher value products like in our case, bluefin tuna. So there's so many seafood products. I was very attracted to me, frankly. I started coming, I said, wow, this [00:23:00] is going to be very challenging with all the hurdles I talked about before, but I said, it's even more challenging to work on lower value products.

And the beauty of seafood is not only does it have challenges for human health, obviously animal welfare. but also has. issues with lack of consistency, a lack of access. These are things that were unique to seafood versus meat and poultry, but also it happens to overlay very nicely with price point.

So I was just, you know, as again, as a food guy, I was just really attracted to fabulous, fabulous technology, absolutely scalable, very confident from day one, but in order to be economically feasible. and to have a unique value proposition, one needed to really, you know, leverage that technology for a product category and area of focus that makes sense where you can really provide a superior value and the food industry.

You know, foods in general, just technology, I've been involved with food tech my whole career. [00:24:00] People don't eat technology, they eat something that's delicious, that, that really has a superior benefit or really resonates in some way. So, my, our whole goal at Lenalo is to really create products that clearly do differentiate, they resonate, they're arguably superior from their conventional counterpart, superior in the context, again, of consistency.

Every time, I know how Inconsistency is a fatal flaw of conventional seafood, wild capture fisheries in particular. You are what you eat, right? So you know, fish is so, so dramatically different from one part of the world to the other, one season to another. so the consistency and the, and the lousy yield and the huge environmental footprint and the, and the lack of sustainability really are big issues with food service.

And human health, we learned, or we've actually learned, Paul, you mentioned how people love seafood, particularly in Asia, we actually have done, as I mentioned, several thousand interviews, Consumer [00:25:00] Intercepts, we asked people, why do, why do you, these are people that, that are, frequent sushi eaters, so they're, they're pre vetted to be a frequent consumer, and we say, well, why do you love seafood, why do you love sushi so much, and they've responded to us, well, because of the health benefits, and We're moving away from red meat towards seafood, high omegas, et cetera, et cetera.

And then we actually kind of probe further, well, if I'm an asshole, why don't you consume even more seafood? And they say, well, it may have some health issues, but you just said it had health benefits. And they said, I know. So, so then we said, well, what do you mean when, why health challenges? Well, I read about microplastics in the ocean.

I'm not even sure what that means if it might get into my fish. I've read about nuclear radiation. I've read about, you know, mercury, you know, for when, when, when my wife or myself or my mother, what have you was pregnant or nursing. Now there's young children that there is actually some warning. About minimizing your intake of sushi up to age 11, [00:26:00] because now kids are having sushi.

So people are feeling conflicted, you know, at the consumer level. So again, it's, it's unique to seafood versus meat and poultry. And all these things I kind of hypothesize would be true. We've now validated that, along with the food service challenges. So again, that's, and frankly, the higher price points makes this a very attractive category.

So again, I think in the whole category of cultivated meats, It's really, you know, being very selective about, yes, as economies of scale happen, all of us will benefit. You know, the rising tide will lift all boats here, but for us, you know, beginning with high value products and beginning at price parity even is something that's very, very, very feasible.

without, you know, and really demonstrating a superior product, and give the people another choice.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah, I mean, in, in fairness to those who are pursuing, you know, chicken, pork and beef, you would hope that and I bet I don't want to put words in their mouth, but I presume they would say, you know, if you look at the trajectory of every technology, it starts out very expensive and it [00:27:00] becomes much cheaper.

And so. If you think about electric cars and how expensive they once were, and now more and more people are having them. And now with BYD in China, you get even cheaper electric cars. And so maybe somebody will figure out how to get down to price parity with ground beef, let's say, or maybe even chicken.

We'll see. but

Lou Cooperhouse: they will, they will, it just, it just takes time. Right.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah. So speaking of time, you know, been doing this for six years now. You started the company again in 2018. You've raised over 100 million. Surely there is an immense amount that you've learned in those six years about what works and what doesn't work.

Is there anything today? That you would go back and you'd tell the Lou of 2018. So if you're 20 years old now, and then I guess you would be, you know, a tween at this point, six years ago. Right. so, you know, the 14 year old Lou who started this company, you know, is there anything that you would tell him to do differently than what actually happened?

And you look back and think, I wish that we would have done this or that, or not done this in these past six years.

Lou Cooperhouse: I, [00:28:00] nothing comes to mind, Paul, I'll be honest. I, I, I think it's, I think what's. What we've obviously all learned is the economic headwinds, you know, and now even some government political headwinds are upon us as well.

and, and that's really why, you know, you know, and, and the beef or poultry category in particular with, with cattlemen is a very challenging sector, you know, and I think what's, I think I was very, I was very, I was very, you know, I'll use the word proactive in that, you know, we were all about working as an and, not a or.

our whole focus of Lunalo from day one was we were working with industry. we ask GJ investors that come from industry and as a person who, as you know, you've last time you profiled me, we talked about chicken nuggets. So I worked at ConAgra in my earlier days, back in my, my literally in my twenties.

I was a group leader for processed meats for North America. I was a chicken nugget and a hamburger guy, actually. So, so,I know about high volume [00:29:00] and, how, how, you know, how the throughput of that, of that equipment of those, large factories. It's quite significant, but also how, how prominent, how strong the American agricultural sector really is.

So, you know, you know, blue and hollow, I just got started. And frankly, there were some challenges that came from the plant based category before us and some of the labeling with milk and so forth that preceded that, you know, that really made me very conscious of this sound. This is all about working with industry and as, and, and as, You may, you may know Paul, but we actually became recently a member of the National Fisheries Institute.

So NFI, so we are now seen as not wild or farm, but still cultured. we are now a third form of seafood. And for us, that's just huge recognition for what we've been about from day one. And I think the whole industry, our cultivated industry I'm really proud of has become about and not, or, you know, and, and I think that's really something that, I was an early advocate for, but I'm really excited to see that all of our [00:30:00] peers in this industry are all about, you know, we have the North American media Institute working in partnership with our industry.

you know, and thanks to Upside Foods leadership, and really addressing some of the political headwinds that this industry is facing. Coming from the ag and cattle sector in particular. and obviously in our case, we have the NFI working in partnership with us and collaborating with us. you know, you know, we're just addressing this, you know, the, the, the meat poultry and seafood industry needs this industry to succeed.

There will not be enough, you know, protein to feed this planet in the decades ahead. And we're excited by the amount of strategic investors that this category is really attracting. that really recognize the same thing. This is about feeding the world and future generations and not thinking about today and winning political races, but really in stifling innovation.

But in fact, giving consumers a choice that frankly has a superior benefits to some or a, another option for others.[00:31:00] or they don't have to have it at all. So we're just trying to give like, like America was built on, you know, choice and freedom.

Paul Shapiro: Indeed. Indeed. so there's nothing that you would necessarily have done differently.

During those six years, maybe you've learned some things and had some resources that were made available to you that have benefited you. You have a very different background than many of the founders of the companies in this space. As you mentioned, you know, your background was making chicken nuggets for ConAgra and other, food products.

Right? So, which is very different from somebody, let's say like,of ti who was a cardiologist or Josh Tetrick who, you know, was a, a lawyer. And you just have a very different background as a food industry person. So are there resources that you have found useful in your career in the food industry, or maybe even during your time as CEO of Lunalu, that you would recommend to others who are thinking about trying to make a difference in the world also?

Like any books, speeches, anything else that you would find compelling that you'd recommend?

Lou Cooperhouse: Definitely, Paul. I think,first of all, just as a, you're [00:32:00] right. In my, in my career in the food industry, it's all been about food innovation, tech commercialization. I was involved with, medical nutrition, fresh cut produce, perishable foods, sous vide, high pressure processing, cook chill, all kinds of technologies.

What I learned through that, it's about, again, that superior value proposition. So my first thing I would recommend anybody, at the end of the day, it's about culinary, it's about taste. Now, it's really giving consumers an experience, something superior, something that really does offer benefits. And I think one of the things that, that, we're learning and all of us are learning this industry is what are those benefits that most resonate?

Do people actually pay for a product, you know, a cultivated meat, poultry, or seafood for, because it's sustainable, it's ethical, no animals are killed or harmed, or is it because it's healthier or humane, it's consistent? You know, it's kosher halal. What are the attributes that really resonate? And it's different for all of us.

So it's really, I [00:33:00] guess my first learning is, excuse me, it's all about culinary and really, you know, taste being very forward, but in terms of books, You know, that, that actually have influenced me. there's actually a couple. So, you know, one is, as you know, I've also been very involved in innovation.

I used to run the Rutgers food innovation center. I'm still the chairman of their advisory board. So I've worked with so many entrepreneurs and a couple of books I recommended to folks, you know, one is Marcus Buckingham's first break all the rules. and it's really, where he interviewed 80, 000 managers at 400 companies, and he really talked about the team, and it's really about, you know, you know, and a second book, I just want to talk about both the same time is a great by choice, you know, by Jim Collins, the author also author, a good to great.

But great by choices is an interesting one. They're both about, about discipline, preparation, thoughtfulness, hiring the right people, really, engaging in some of the [00:34:00] core values and, you know, interfunctional relationships, accountability, you know, just really that success doesn't happen overnight, you know, and it's really about a thoughtful process that's really so driven by discipline.

You know, one thing that we did at Bluenalo is, early on, you know, and we've actually, put this into motion is really establishing core values. And I'd love to talk about core values, but number one, you know, four of them, but the first one we call being epicurious, you know, being inquisitive, thinking outside the box, being flexible, being a listener, you know, and it really kind of reflects some of these, these two books I mentioned, great by choice and first break, all the rules.

Second one is being bold. You know, it's really about, you know, accountability, action oriented, strategic. Number three is being a lighthouse. So again, a seafood term here, but one about, you know, you know, really representing best practices, you know, really demonstrating integrity, [00:35:00] humility, seeking continuous improvement, prioritizing safety and quality.

And number four is number four is being true blue. so true blue is, you know, being respectful of each other internally and externally supportive, engaged, collaborative, creating trust, you don't really work as a team. So I think part of, you know, any, any message to any of your future entrepreneurs or current ones.

It's really developing, embracing, activating core values that really create the chemistry, the connectivity amongst the team. I'm also a huge fan. My whole career has been about open innovation. That means all ideas are not created here. You know, we got to really, you know, we're doing things that have never been done before.

So and, and thinking about that, it's establishing a scientific advisory board or a corporate advisory board, you know, or just really working with partners around, around the planet. You know, who are the folks could help us scale up supply chain operations, market intelligence, regulatory intelligence, [00:36:00] and so on and so forth.

Just really, again, I think that's, you know, those books kind of correspond with kind of, you know, you know, how, you know, Bernardo, frankly, I think all of us are, are somewhat lean. We have so much to do. And how do you establish when you have so many obstacles and challenges and opportunities in front of you?

How do you establish that with a very lean team? So you'd be very conservative with, with your investors cash. So that's really been how we've been set up for the beginning. It makes, it makes it makes a very, it makes a lot of long days, but we just really have, first and foremost, just an amazing team of blue Nalo.

And I think, all of us, you know, in this industry really have done a great job overcoming so many challenges. The future is very bright, you know, and I think it's just a matter of time. And again, more, more, more capital that will be required, but, we will absolutely be successful. it's just a matter of a short amount of time now.

So the last six years have been great. And the next six, you will see factories being built around the world for sure. [00:37:00]

Paul Shapiro: I'm excited. I'm excited. So apparently you intend to, break ground in 2026. And it's like an 18 month process. So like in 2027 or 2028, perhaps, we'll see the first commercial 100 per pound Toro coming off of the line, and I'll get a free a free sample of it.

I'm looking forward to that. but, that that'll be very exciting. And I hope that we'll be talking about that when that factory, when the ribbon cutting occurs. So finally, you were mentioning for, you know, either, entrepreneurs or want tribunals who are listening right now that these are resources that might be useful for them.

is there anything you'd recommend that they do if they're thinking, I really want to make a difference, but I'm not sure what to do, or their ideas for companies that don't exist, or that maybe aren't yet being done well enough. That you would recommend that somebody else take up the mantle and say, I'm going to go do that.

Lou Cooperhouse: Yeah, that's, that's a big task pole, especially given today's environment, you know, but obviously, you know, [00:38:00] conversely, I think, you know, there's so many amazing companies that are in this category and precision fermentation and plant based and cell culture. clearly any, any want to be entrepreneurs, you know, certainly should think about joining these companies.

we're all hiring, we're all looking for talent. and, and I think that,the opportunity is really bright here. So, you know, it's exciting to see, you know, colleges, universities, you know, really having more programs, more focus in this category. More interest in sustainability and food tech in this, in this whole new category here.

So, yeah, I mean, they're obviously to be an entrepreneur is challenging. It's not for everybody, not for the, not for the faint of heart for sure, but certainly to get experience working at a company is a great first step is what I really would recommend.

Paul Shapiro: Okay, fair enough. So basically Lou says, don't start your own company just yet.

Join Blue Nalu or one of the other companies that's raised some capital in his hiring. And, I, I love the quote from Ben Horowitz, the co founder of Andreessen Horowitz, the venture capital fund in his book, the hard thing about hard [00:39:00] things. He says that. When you start your own company, you will sleep like a baby because you will wake up every two hours and cry.

And you know, there are some days where that is more resonant than others, but Lou, it's wonderful to talk with you. And it's inspirational to hear your story and all that you are seeking to accomplish. So as you know, i'm rooting hard for you and I hope to be at that ribbon cutting when the new factory and Asia or wherever it's going to be is, is, is finally built and you'll be there, Paul, I'll make sure that you, pre approve any comments that I might make before that happens.

So, all right. Thanks, Lou.

Lou Cooperhouse: Thanks Paul.