Paul Shapiro: [00:00:00] Nicole, welcome to the business for good podcast.

Nicole Poindexter: How great, thanks, Paul. It's really great to be here with you.

Paul Shapiro: Hey, it's really nice to be chatting with you. you have a background that many people would not think that you were going to be starting your own company. That's going to be doing work in rural Africa.

You went to Yale undergrad, you have a degree in, you have a, an MBA from Harvard. A lot of the people you went to school with are probably thinking like, how can I get on the Supreme court or, you know, running like fortune 500 companies by now. Yeah. what led you to do this? Like what, how did you go from the Ivy League to rural Africa?

Nicole Poindexter: so I've done a bunch of different things in my career. I was a banker, I was a venture capitalist. I ran operations for a fortune 500 company. And, I have also tried to start a couple of companies along the way. And in 2000, I started a company wasn't a great idea, honestly, in retrospect, only my mother thinks it [00:01:00] was, but

Paul Shapiro: what was the idea?

What was the idea? I presume it failed. If you think it wasn't a good idea in hindsight, but what was the idea?

Nicole Poindexter: it was, So my, my, my, my thesis was the important thing that iTunes did for music. And again, this is 2008, was not just digitizing, but making music available at the level of song as opposed to the level of album.

And I. Love books. I've been in book publishing. I had worked in book publishing and that I thought that you could do the same thing for the ideas and books.and you know, we're starting with cookbooks and health books and things like that, but can you like create bite sized chunks of content and then allow people to mix them up and kind of

Paul Shapiro: like

Nicole Poindexter: you can create your own Spotify list or playlist on.

That's interesting.

Paul Shapiro: I could see that working. I could see it working with recipes, like with cookbooks, you know, you don't maybe you don't need 100 recipes, but you might like this author and [00:02:00] want 1 or 2 of their works.

Nicole Poindexter: Exactly. It's not the worst, worst idea ever, but not a huge market and. Really just not a compelling business, but, but that said, I also had really great and great and air quotes market timing.

I have this very enthusiastic email. I wrote to someone in September, like September 8th of 2008, saying fundraising is looking really promising. the markets crash started crashing about 2 weeks later with the fall of Lehman. And so I didn't. So the business went nowhere. I had nothing to do. and if you remember back to the time, like we just really weren't sure what was going to happen with the economy.

So I, was a bit lost, but I knew that I'd always been interested in energy and, went to organize a conference on the smart grid. From there, I got a job in a small company. Early stage startup called Opower at the time [00:03:00] and was one of the early employees there, learned a lot about software, learned a lot about utilities, learned a lot about energy and Opower went public in 2014.

and I was early enough, to have some flexibility, If not early enough to retire, but I did have enough money to have some flexibility and I thought about what I wanted to do. I wanted to make a difference. I was interested in energy and in fact, interested in the question of what does it take to have a hundred percent renewables on the grid and, not something you can test in the U S there's

Paul Shapiro: why like, in hindsight, that may be so, but like, why is it that renewables at a hundred percent are not possible in the U S.

Nicole Poindexter: You couldn't test it in the U. S. I'm not saying it's not possible. Like, never possible. But at that time, we only had 1 percent renewables on the grid, and that might have been 1 percent solar. there's some places with a considerable amount of hydro, but we were going from 1 [00:04:00] percent with a whole lot of established infrastructure to 100.

That's just a huge gap. And it's Like, it just did not seem testable, but I'd heard that there were parts of Africa that did not have energy infrastructure at all. And, Now that sounds super naive.at the time I, it wasn't quite as naive when I was in business school. I worked in Zimbabwe and they had a fully functioning grid at the time, at least in Harare, the city that I was working in.

And just after business school, I worked in South Africa. And again, they had a fully functioning grid. So my experience of Africa is Africa without electricity, but that is not really the real story. so I'd heard this. And it was like, let me do some research. And honestly, I looked at a YouTube video and I saw what people's lives were like without electricity.

And there are people living in pre industrial circumstances. There's this guy who [00:05:00] was using a forge powered by his feet as he's like trying to increase the fire so that he could. Hammer some metal. you know, I saw kids coughing because people are cooking inside their houses with flames and, you know, with fire.

And I was like, this isn't acceptable. Like, it's not acceptable that people are living like that. And, I'm upset when there's I'm at a Starbucks and they're steaming my coffee and I don't have a plug next to me. So it's just not acceptable. So I

Paul Shapiro: do think about what you just said very often and how how those of us who live in the developed world have things that bother us that would be.

A dream come true. If somebody from the developing world could experience that problem. Yes. Yes. Like, like what you just mentioned at Starbucks, or if like something, you know, something on my car doesn't, you know, stops working or something like, you know, these are inconveniences to us. but you know, our, [00:06:00] our worst days are the dreams come true of probably more than a billion other people in the world.

Nicole Poindexter: Yeah, it's so true. So true. And so, having been a banker, I built a financial model and, having worked in the space that I'd worked at. Oh, power. I, well, actually not. I, I looked for some regulators, but I called up a friend of mine, who lived in Ghana. It's the only person really that I knew on the entire continent of Africa.

And I was like, Hey, do you think I could yeah. Make a difference in this. And at the time they were going through a power crisis, the parts of Ghana that had electricity would have outages for 36 hours and power for 12. And he's like, if you can help us with our power problems, you'd be a hero. And so got on a plane, met with the regulators.

And then I went to some rural villages and the people in the villages, I thought they were going to say I was crazy, but actually what they said was, can you bring us power tomorrow? And by the end of that trip, I felt like I'd promised. [00:07:00] So it was really that promises why I started this company. And it's kind of been one foot in front of the other sense.

Paul Shapiro: It's an impressive thing, right? So most people see a problem in the world. They're not going to be on the next plane to West Africa to try to solve it, right? So obviously there's something thing. Special about you, Nicole, I do want to ask, so like the way that you're describing it to me, it sounds as if a charity could be deployed to do this right now.

I know you're going to say that needs to be a business. So what is the business opportunity? Right? I can see why somebody from some philanthropic charity could say, Oh, You know, these people are suffering without electricity. We need to bring them clean, renewable electricity. Let's let's go do that.

You're saying you think it's a profitable business here, right? That people can actually make money by providing renewable energy in Western Africa. So what is the business model? How do you in these developing areas make money by selling power?

Nicole Poindexter: So we make money the same way and I don't know if you're in Southern California, Northern California, but the same way [00:08:00] Southern California energy or.

Southern California, Edison does. We sell electricity, and we sell electricity to people who want it. and we sell electricity to people who spent more not having electricity than they spend on our electricity. And what that means is if you don't have electricity, you have to Typically, people have a phone, but you pay someone a dollar, a charge to charge your phone.

if you don't have electricity, your food spoils every day because you don't have refrigeration. If you don't have electricity, your kids can't study at night, which is kind of a charitable thing in a certain sense. But on the other sense, you know, people invest in the United States billions. To ensure that their kids get a good education and the best advantages that they can afford.

So there is a very clear business case. There are people who don't have a lot of money, but they can actually be more efficient with their funds and get much more value if [00:09:00] they spend it on electricity that we provide using renewable energy. So. We've got willing customers on a product. That's business.

Paul Shapiro: let's talk about that product because it's not just electricity, right? You have a solar powered mini grid. So for those who are not, you know, inducted into the world of energy business, what is a solar powered mini grid? What does that even entail?

Nicole Poindexter: Sure. So our product is electricity. The solar powered mini grid is what we install in order to provide electricity.

And what that is, is we go into a village and we find a piece of land and we install a centralized solar farm. We have, batteries. So that the energy produced by the solar is stored and can provide electricity overnight. We have poles and wires just like your utility and wherever you are may have, poles and wires that bring electricity to each person's house, and then we have smart meters on each person's house to measure how much electricity they use.

So [00:10:00] we're very much we're identical to your utility, except we serve small communities that have to be very poor.

Paul Shapiro: Why is nobody else doing this right? Or like if the big utilities thought there was money to be made doing this, presumably they would do it. So why does it take a startup like energy?

Nicole Poindexter: So there are in fact, in Africa, so I thought everyone had electricity.

in fact, there are at least 600 million people in Africa who do not have electricity and providing electricity to some of the world's poorest people who live in rural areas. Using a technology we have never used at 100 percent on a grid and never is a strong word. I think that there are different experience experiments in other places, but for the most part, we have not used 100 percent solar to provide electricity on a 24 hour basis.

that requires innovation [00:11:00] doing all those things, serving a group of people who have never been served before serving a group of people who have been ignored by the marketplace. That requires innovation, and that's what, entrepreneurial companies are great at utilities. On the other hand, and while there's some really great innovations going on in utilities, you know, they're big companies.

It's hard to sort of incubate and start something inherently kind of has to be small. You know, we're serving a village that is 500 households, With, 50 kilowatt system, that's hard for a large company to get their minds around. So I do expect that large utilities will be in this industry. I expect that they will be in this industry because they've bought smaller companies like ours after we've achieved significant scale

Paul Shapiro: and obviously 50 kilowatts is not significant scale.

But what do you think of as significant scale that would actually be attractive to them?

Nicole Poindexter: so [00:12:00] we are targeting achieving three million customers, over the course of the next four years, you know, before 2030. that size. I actually at that size, you know, we'd probably be and I don't actually know the number.

you know, about 100 million a year company.

Paul Shapiro: I

Nicole Poindexter: think that

Paul Shapiro: Yeah, right. Okay. And the company today is where

Nicole Poindexter: we're much smaller.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah, we are

Nicole Poindexter: looking at an acquisition. I'll just say that. Wow. Okay. Teaser. But, but we are a series a raising raising now, actually.

Paul Shapiro: Right. So I read that you've raised 10 million dollars so far.

Is that accurate? Cool. Yeah. A

Nicole Poindexter: little bit more, but yes,

Paul Shapiro: a little bit more. Right. Congratulations. How many folks work at energy city now?

Nicole Poindexter: We have approximately 100 people of that. There's about 50 of them are professional staff and about 50 of them are rural technicians. They're working in the communities and they inspect our solar [00:13:00] on a daily basis.

Paul Shapiro: And for a lot of companies that have a 10 million raise, the idea of having 100 employees is it's vastly more of them what they would hire. So I assume you're going to say you can do that because these folks are working in Liberia and Sierra Leone and Benin and making much less than what the energy worker in the United States makes.

Is that right? That is exactly the case. Right. And so how many of your staff are in the United States?

Nicole Poindexter: I have two United States citizens on staff.

Paul Shapiro: Okay.

Nicole Poindexter: And most of the time we're both in Africa.

Paul Shapiro: Really? You spend most of your time in Africa?

Nicole Poindexter: I do. I spend about nine months out of the year in Africa.

Paul Shapiro: Wow. And I mean, I don't want to pry, but I know you have a family.

So how do you make this work if you're gone nine months out of the year? Are they going with you to Liberia and Sierra Leone or are they staying in the U. S.? I

Nicole Poindexter: don't know. No, so it's, I have a family, meaning I am the daughter of a mother and father and the sister of an aunt to, but I do not have a husband and kids of my own,

Paul Shapiro: right?

Okay. [00:14:00] Well, as somebody who, you know, I, I have my own toe is in the entrepreneurial waters, running my own startup for the last seven years. And I don't have kids. I have a wife, but I don't have kids. And, I don't comprehend how anybody does it with kids. I cannot imagine how it would be possible. and I know they do.

I know they do. I just, you know, it's such an all consuming endeavor. I just can't envision how it gets done

Nicole Poindexter: every time. I'm at home, you know, and I am an aunt and a child, not a mother and wife. Every time at home. I I'm at home. I asked my friends, I'm Who have kids, how on earth they work, forget running a company.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah, I know. That's a, that's a good line. it reminds me, I was listening to an interview with the, the guy who started Peloton and they were going through some really rough times. not as, You know, pre pandemic when they really took off, and I guess they had some rough times after the pandemic, too.

But, you know, either way, he, he had this line. I can't believe it was true. But he said it on this interview that I heard where his wife asked him. Look, can we just commit to having dinner 1 night a [00:15:00] week together? And he said that he would consent to 1 dinner per night or 1 dinner per week. If she would consent that during.

That dinner, they would talk about what they would do when the business went belly up and how they would afford their mortgage. And I thought, wow, what a pleasure to be married to this guy. you know, you know, I hope it's not true. He said it as if it were true. And I, I hope it wasn't for the sake of his marriage.

But, but yeah, it's just, it's, it's really incredible. Well, let me ask you then as somebody who, you know, obviously, grew up in America, you're spending nine months out of your, out of your year in Africa. Now, how much is the culture shock for you? Yeah.

Nicole Poindexter: You know, in a certain respect, so I would traveled back and forth a lot before the pandemic, but I got locked down in Sierra Leone during the pandemic.

Like, they closed the airport and I could not leave. and that was initially a little stressful, probably less because I was in Sierra Leone and more because I There was a global pandemic, but it really grew to feel like home and, it's the, the [00:16:00] cultural difference. So I don't live in a rural village.

I live in the capital city and, you know, the cultural difference, a lot of it is it's just like a small town. People are very friendly. I can't walk from my house to the main road, without people. Like several people saying hi to me and good morning, and I feel obliged to speak back. That's not how I lived in New York City.

Paul Shapiro: so

Nicole Poindexter: I mean, there's less choice at a grocery store, for example. you know, I like they've got four vegetables. I will figure out what I'm gonna make with those four vegetables. But, Sometimes I kind of feel like in the states, we've got too much choice. So it's I, I actually quite enjoy it. there are some challenges in the main city in Sierra Leone.

There are power cuts that are, you know, I can go a long time without power. That's hard.

Paul Shapiro: You need energy city.

Nicole Poindexter: I do. I don't, I know we need to take over the utility in the moon city, but, but so [00:17:00] there, there, there are definitely challenges, but I think what I enjoy about being there is the way people deal with those challenges.

They often deal with grace and, appreciation for what they have. And, you know, that's a little bit different from how we live our lives in the States, even me when I'm in the States, but it's actually quite nice.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah, yeah, I can imagine. I certainly agree. I get when I go to the grocery store. I just think certainly 90 plus percent of the things that are on the shelves here and need not exist.

Like I like that is how I feel when I go in there like to say like so much of this. What is the purpose of it? anyway, just back to the product of yourself. You know, you mentioned, Mm hmm. Nicole, you're selling electricity that is being generated from these little mini solar farms that you are doing, but you also mentioned that there's real innovation that you as a startup are doing that.

Maybe these big utilities don't want to do. What is the actual innovation? Right? Like, I mean, you can get solar panels and batteries anywhere. So what is [00:18:00] the innovation of energetic?

Nicole Poindexter: so we've got innovation at two different levels. one is process and, It's, it's interesting. Our main investor to date is a fund called ecosystem integrity fund, and they are a pretty successful impact venture fund.

what they are most interested in are using tested technology. So they're not on the cutting edge of technology, but using tested technologies and innovative spaces that enable, You know, a cleaner planet and that's really what we do. And so a lot of the, the innovation is process, how we're deploying many, many grids, part of the innovation is really what we learn from our customers.

You know, these customers are people who make 5 a day and for instance, we listened to them. And one of the [00:19:00] first big lessons we learned from them is that. Their biggest obstacle to using electricity to increase their livelihood isn't the availability of electricity, but it's the availability of capital.

And so we started leasing freezers, leasing grain mills, now leasing electric motorbikes, electric bikes, to people in these communities so that they can use the electricity to make them make themselves wealthier. We learned that by listening to our customers. There are other companies who. Provide electricity through many grids.

Most others don't do not do this. We outperform because we listen to our customers and we're delivering services in ways that actually meet customers needs. and then the other way in which we're innovating, which, Is on the technology side is that we've built our own software platform. We actually designed smart meters that are very specifically tailored to the [00:20:00] needs of many grids.

And then we've designed our own software platform, which also, Particular to the technical needs of many grids, but also the, the customer needs. and what I often say about our software platform is like every heartbreak, every lesson we've learned, every painful, painful lesson we've learned, we've embedded it in the software.

We've embedded the learnings in the software. So we have now systematized that we don't make those mistakes the next time. And, so innovation on all three fronts.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah, what's the biggest pain pain point that you've had so far

Nicole Poindexter: raising money?

Paul Shapiro: Yeah, you know, you, you were in the V. C. shoes, right? You were on that side of the table.

Now you're on the other side of the table. And, you know, I don't know when you were a V. C. I presume it was prior to energy city, right? So prior to 2015, when you started the company, But, you know, it's been quite a wild ride for me to see how it really was a founder's market, [00:21:00] even like, let's say 2021, 2022.

And now, I mean, quite the opposite, needless to say, like, there's just not a lot of venture capital go to around unless you're an AI. And, it reminds me of, have you ever heard of the hors d'oeuvres theory of fundraising? So, yeah, so it's basically, you know, if you're, let's say you're at a, you know, some party and they've got You know, waiters coming out of the kitchen with a plate full of food, the best time to take that is when they pass you, right?

Because you think there's just an endless array of these like stuffed mushrooms that are coming out, but there may not be any more stuff. Mushrooms, you know, so when they pass you, you should take that stuff mushroom. And the same is so with fundraising, like when people make an offer, you know, generally speaking, don't turn it down.

and in this day and era where we see startups doing mass layoffs and, you know, collapsing altogether every day. It's, it's a good reminder of that for sure.

Nicole Poindexter: Yeah. And I mean, and for us, we've got a unique challenge, but also a benefit. so first of all, when you [00:22:00] asked about the innovation, oh yes. And we have AI because heaven forbid these days, I forget to mention that.

But, bye now. The first challenge we have in raising money is a question that you asked early on. Why is this a business and not a charity? And so a lot of fun, a lot of investors have a very hard time figuring out what bucket to put this in. but you know, we generate real returns where EBITDA positive, which, you know, again, not a lot of early stage companies can say.

Paul Shapiro: Very rare, very rare. That that's,pleasantly shocking to me. Congratulations.

Nicole Poindexter: so we're, we're, you know, again, we're real business, but a lot of people sort of struggle with how to think about it. you know, they, they want to use their daff to invest, but, oh, wait, we're not a nonprofit. So. So that's one.

Paul Shapiro: Sorry to interrupt you. For those of you not familiar with the acronym DAF, it's donor advised fund. So basically, you know, somebody's family [00:23:00] has a fund that they're going to donate to the company, but got it. All right, please go on. Thank

Nicole Poindexter: you. Thank you. And so the second piece is Africa risk. Perceived risk.

and so, you know, people have only heard bad stories about Africa or charitable stories about Africa. And very rarely do they hear about, you know, real businesses delivering product, delivering services and making profit. And so, you know, we don't fit the pattern recognition. For a lot of folks. in fact, most funds don't even have african permission to invest in Africa.

So that limits the scope of the investors that we can talk to that said, I'd say, unlike some of the challenges that a lot of companies have because we're a particular order, to kind of mangle your metaphor, our investors are really supportive. [00:24:00] And so, you know, we're, we're, we're very fortunate to have the ones that we have and they get what we're doing and why, and they've been very supportive.

Paul Shapiro: Cool. so that's the concern about, let's say like American investors who may not want to invest in an African based business. What about in Africa? So, you know, you're dealing in countries that, you know, there, there probably isn't a big, VC community. like, like there is, and there may also actually, let me just ask you, like, so Liberia has had a female head of state.

I remember when, Alan Johnson Sirleaf was there. I don't think she's the head of state in Liberia anymore, but. but I remember when, when she was there, but I don't know if the other countries you're working in, like Sierra Leone have ever had a female head of state, but as the CEO of this company, you're dealing, with, cultures that may not be familiar with seeing women in power.

Is that accurate or is that a misrepresentation?

Nicole Poindexter: That that is accurate. they're certainly not used to it, but for the most part, hasn't been a problem. [00:25:00] I think culturally to them. I'm more American than I am woman. So, you know, American is. It's this other category. So sort of their thoughts of how they might treat other women.

They never think of treating me, but I did have a really funny meeting once. junior, business, not business, junior government official in Nigeria. And I was with a construction supervisor and the, the government official refused to talk to me about the business, but I was just like, This is time for me to rest and solve a different problem in my head.

And I'll just listen to make sure. And my guy actually answered all the questions, right? So it was all good, but so, I mean, some people. Are find it very unusual, but for the most part, people are excited that we're providing a service and they don't care what gender the person is.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah, for sure. I'm sure having access to reliable [00:26:00] electricity is paramount for for folks who are suffering on fun.

5 a day. okay. You've obviously done a lot. You've worked at 2 startups. Now you've done a variety of other things that are quite interesting. As you mentioned, Nicole, what resources have been useful for you? In your journey, whether as a VC or a banker or somebody who joined a startup or somebody who's now running a startup that you founded, somebody's looking and thinking, wow, what an impressive life she's led so far.

I'd like to do something like her. Are there any things that you would recommend that they check out that have been helpful for you on your journey?

Nicole Poindexter: I will give more advice than say resources. someone along the way told me something that I quote to people often, which is those who know why those who know how work for those who know why.

And it's, you know, I think that endeavoring to understand why is really powerful, particularly when you're dealing with new markets or new [00:27:00] technology. It's just asking the questions to understand why. And I also would say that. A lot of people, for instance, my background is not a technical solar background and they ask, how can you run an engineering company?

And I'd say, I just ask good questions. And so there's this power to asking good questions that, I think is really critical and everything we do, they, there's some statistics about children, young children ask questions, you know, something like, A hundred times a day, 200 times a day, and adults ask questions once a day, good questions.

Paul Shapiro: That's funny. I actually use, like, if one were to look at my chat GPT log, it is primarily these questions that come up in my mind that are totally independent of anything. Like I'm just like, that I would never look up on my own. I would never ask somebody, but like, I'll give you an insane example. I was, thinking [00:28:00] if lava comes out of a volcano and it hits you because it's a rock that is hitting you, it's just a really hot rock.

Do you die first from being burned or do you die from being crushed? And I didn't know, so I asked you, and for those of you wondering, you get burned first that the heat is way, way more deadly, but those are like the type of insane things that pop into my mind that are independent of anything else going on ever in my life that I ask all the time.

So I must still be a child if I'm asking these types of questions on a regular basis.

Nicole Poindexter: A child in the very best way. And so that would be the first thing, ask questions. Second is I read an insane amount. everything, nonfiction fiction, but, I think reading both and, and I've read some particularly good books that, and I will recommend only one, but I read some particularly good books.

but, But I just think the act of reading both in terms of learning about people and increasing empathy. [00:29:00] And also, just learning skills, learning about people's lives, learning, you know, about leadership, all the above. And then the two specific books, Atomic Habits and Dare to Lead.

Paul Shapiro: Okay. Atomic Habits, very popular, sat on the number one bestseller for New York Times for many, many, Months, maybe even years and, Daryl lead.

So we'll include the link to both of those, books, in the show notes of this episode at business for good podcast. com. For those who want to go check out Nicole's recommendations. And finally, Nicole, I want to ask you, you're busy for the last decade trying to bring power to rural Africa. But I imagine as somebody who's led the life that you've led that there's probably a lot of other ideas out there that you hope that somebody will do that probably you're not going to do because you don't have the time.

But is there any company that you think somebody else should start anything that you think would do some good and make some money that you would recommend to [00:30:00] somebody if they're thinking, I really want to do something important in the world, but I just don't know what the idea is.

Nicole Poindexter: That's such a good question.

And,

I, I think we'll keep it Africa focused. Though I probably have more of those ideas in the U S but keeping it Africa focused, you know, Africa, as they say, tremendous resources, underutilized. Or at best utilized in the sort of extractive ways where, you know, it's just pulled out of the ground and then ship someplace else.

I think that there are tremendous opportunities to leverage the resources in Africa available from Africa in Africa, and that can both be serving an African market, which is huge, fastest growing market on the continent in terms of pop in the the world. On the planet in terms of population, but also in terms of a huge opportunity for [00:31:00] wealth creation.

So I think that there's a way to deliver, product sustainably on the continent for markets on the continent for markets, for export. And so to just give a very specific answer that just popped in my head, you know, there's a lot of battery technologies that are leveraging resources from Africa. So Make it in Africa, which arguably will be more sustainable than transporting rocks across the globe.

so that someone else can make it.

Paul Shapiro: Okay. Very good. I like the way that you put it transporting rocks across the globe. That's good. Nicole, thanks so much. It's really great to talk with you. I'm impressed by what you are building. It's obviously very important for the world and for those who you're helping.

But the fact that you're running and even a positive startup that puts you in a league of very rare caliber. So congratulations on that. And I'll be rooting for your success and looking forward to reading about [00:32:00] the 100 million in revenue. All right.

Nicole Poindexter: Awesome. Thanks so much. Have a great day.