Paul Shapiro: [00:00:00] Ryan, welcome to the business for good podcast.

Ryan Chung: Hi, Paul. Good to meet you.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah. It's so nice to meet you too. I know you're in South Korea right now. You know, it's funny. I was there about a year and a half ago. And when I went to the Seoul airport, I told my wife, I said, I feel like I've gone, To a first world country.

Like the airport is so nice. There's, there's, there's, there are robots going all over the airport, bringing people food to their gates. The bathrooms have all these signs outside that say, which stalls are available when the last time they were cleaned was, it was like, you know, I, I, I didn't want to go back to the developing country of the United States.

It was really nice.

Ryan Chung: I think, you got it right. I mean, Korea did actually invest a lot of money on the airport and, you know, we're very proud of it, but, I think you hit the nail on the head. Like, yes, it's one of the best airports I've ever seen while traveling the world.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah, for sure. And Seoul was extremely nice.

Also, of course, it was, it was [00:01:00] really beautiful, but I know you spend about half your time in Korea and the other half of the time in the United States. I know you spent a lot of time in the United States, obviously, but what led to your interest? Absolutely. In plant based meat in the first place, you know, you've had a, an illustrious career working in startups and you spent some time a few years at Tesla also.

so I presume you have some interest in environmental protection, but why plant based meat? What got you into this?

Ryan Chung: Sure. I mean, I think like every, person probably who got into this business, this business, they had some sort of a personal contact with the plant based food at some point in their life.

And I did too. So about eight years, eight years ago, I had my second baby and, I wanted to see how I can improve my health overall. I've been always interested in trying different types of food and plant based at the time was kind of getting interest of a lot of people, especially if you're living in California and that's why I was living at that time.

And I went vegetarian for, I think, about six months. I felt good. A [00:02:00] lot better. So I thought, hey, this diet works for me and I like to stay this way. Although I do kind of eat meat once in a while, vegetarian diet has always kind of been a major eating pattern of mine since then. At the same time, however, I was working for Tesla and didn't have any idea about moving to a different industry in 2020.

However, I moved to South Korea. and, Wanted to look for, wanted to work at a startup and really the one that got my interest was plant based, food at that time, Korea, was also booming with many different types of plant based food companies. I thought it was where I could really make a personal contribution.

So I chose the, the plant based food industry to go into.

Paul Shapiro: Wow. And Unlimit was only, you know, a year or so old then, right? The company was founded in 2019.

Ryan Chung: so the company actually was started in 2017 by a woman called Kim Chae Min, who saw the, who saw the issue with the [00:03:00] food waste. So it wasn't actually about the plant based meat.

It was all about the food waste. The food waste in South Korea that she personally, saw by visiting hundreds of farms in South Korea, and she wanted to make use out of those wastes. So she started buying various produce and vegetables and made a lot of, you know, valuable foods out of it, like spreads.

In 2019, however, she also found out that there are a lot of grain stock. With these, at these farms, like soy and rice that could be used to make plant based meat. So in 2019, the company launched its first plant based sliced beef that we call Korean barbecue now. So yes, we started the plant based business around 2019 and we entered the U.

S. market about, about two and a half years ago.

Paul Shapiro: Nice. And the, the parent company, correct my pronunciation if I'm wrong, is Zicoin. Is that how it's pronounced?

Ryan Chung: Yes, and Seagoing Company is the name of the parent [00:04:00] company. It's a food company that again, Kimcha founded in 2017. and Unlimited is the brand name and also the name of the U.

S. subsidiary.

Paul Shapiro: And so, unlimited is a, it's a play on the word, I presume it's a play on the word unlimited, right? Is that, is that correct?

Ryan Chung: That's right. Unlimited mean. By the way, to go back about the Zhigu and company, what it means is the earthling. So Zhigu means earth and yin means a person. So people living on earth is the name of the parent company's name.

Paul Shapiro: Cool. And does it, does the average person in Korea get the play on the word unlimited meat, if you call it unlimited?

Ryan Chung: You know, it's kind of funny, but yes, people in Korea get it a lot faster than people in the United States, which was not our intentions, but you'll realize that people in Korea like these innovative compound words where they combine two different words.

Like unlimited and meet together. So, yes.

Paul Shapiro: [00:05:00] Okay. Yeah. Cool. Very nice. So, you know, you've talked about the, the upcycling of waste, but let's just briefly chat about before the US expansion, just the technology, because you got companies, let's say, like impossible foods, and they boast about this technology regarding the creation of a plant based team that they make.

through a fermentation process or beyond meat, which has patented all different types of extrusion technologies. What's the technology for you guys? You're, you're making alternative meats, but it's different. It's different. It's not just that it's flavored with Korean flavors. It's actually a different texture.

So what's the technology that you guys have?

Ryan Chung: Right. So the first two years were really spent on creating the textures and different types of oils and flavoring that go with it. So we use extrusion, that we customize to make the type of sliced beef or the pulled pork type that we make today. so we use soy and wheat and rice and different types of protein, the plant based, [00:06:00] ingredients.

And we use, We go through an extrusion machine that we customize to make our plant based protein.

Paul Shapiro: So if you're upcycling these waste products, is the, is the Unlim meat product cheaper than other plant based meats because you're using these, these lower value agricultural byproducts?

Ryan Chung: Unfortunately, no, not at this point.

As you know, the price is, is, Directly related to the volume and the volume of the upcycled ingredients that we use that we purchase, is not high enough at this point to make it cheaper. So, we still buy upcycled ingredients, such as soybean meal and the rice bran. however, the amount has not been big enough to make the cost lower.

However, we're continuously. Testing different types of cycled ingredients, whether it's, you know, tomatoes or potatoes, to see if we can incorporate that in our products.

Paul Shapiro: Mm-hmm . Okay. And [00:07:00] what is the price, so if you compare it to other plant-based meat, what is the average price per pound for on the meat?

Ryan Chung: Sure. I think our products was about, I think our retail price is selling at about 90 cents. per ounce. we sell primarily in retail, and I believe other companies sell anywhere from 30 cents per ounce to about 70 cents per ounce. So we're kind of close, to different types of plant based meat.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah, in fairness, some of them are more.

So you're, so 90 cents, 90 cents an ounce is about 14 a pound, right? So for, you know, you compare that, let's say, To beyond which depends on which product you're getting, but it might be around like 10 to 14 a pound, depending on which product you're getting. So it's comparable, but then there are some other companies, some of the smaller startups that are at like 20 a pound, right?

So even, you know, dramatically more expensive. so you're, you're, you're, you're not that far off from the beyonds of the [00:08:00] impossibles. It's, it's definitely more expensive than let's say Morningstar, which is the incumbent in the space that's been around for decades or corn, as well. but hopefully with scale, you, you guys will, continue reducing those prices.

And so let's talk about, you alluded, Ryan, to your entry into the U. S. market, in 2022. I presume that is to keep the brand growing. And I want to talk about the Asian market as well, but just, you know, you launched, you launched into the U. S. You've got this, this, Times Square advertisement, saying, you know, we're here, you know, unlimited is here on the scene.

We're going to be entering, and you've had a lot of success. You're in thousands of grocery stores. I think you're in like 1500 Albertsons, you're in all of Sprouts. You're in, a couple of hundred giant stores. That was where I, where I grew up. We, we always shopped a giant, my family. so, so, you know, you guys have had a lot of distribution success.

Let me ask you, like, first and foremost, The U. S. Is the busiest of all the plant based meat markets. Why go there as opposed to just keeping expanding in [00:09:00] Asia, where you might have a more open playing field for yourself?

Ryan Chung: Sure. First of all, yes, I think you went on a state's market. If I'm correct, is You know, single biggest country that consumes plant based meat at this point.

if you were to combine different types of European companies, that may be bigger, but U. S. is the fast, fastest, and it was growing the fastest and also the largest. Asian market, is where we were best at, when we first launched our products. however, we thought it would be better. pace in which the market was growing, for plant based was not as fast as the United States.

And also personally, I am from the United States and that's where I thought we could contribute the most and the fastest. So that's, why I chose the United States as the go to market. And also before I joined, you know, Also tested some of our products in the United States already. We couldn't do it as much as we could have, you know, due to COVID, [00:10:00] but we, we were able to gain customers interest pretty quickly.

So that's why we based on our quick test of the market at United States is where we should be.

Paul Shapiro: All right, well, let's talk about that briefly because it's pretty interesting. If you look at plant based meat in the United States, and it's dominated by burgers, hot dogs, sausages, chicken nuggets, like very standard American fare, you guys are offering, you know, bulgogi, kimbap, you guys are doing all these cool Korean things, right?

So, you know, Korean pulled pork, kimbap, tuna. Bulgogi, which is like a sliced Korean beef dish. So my question for you is who's the target demographic for this, right? Is it for the American who would be considering buying a burger and now they're going to get bulgogi? Is it somebody who is interested in Asian cuisine and wants something healthier?

Like who's the lowest hanging fruit as a customer for you in the United States?

Ryan Chung: Our lowest hanging fruit, of the [00:11:00] customers were people who are already buying plant based meats. So, yes, people who were familiar with, plant based needs, whether through impossible burgers or the garden products, you know, they will be, I'm sure, interested in trying.

A variety of plant based meats, so I think our, you know, pork and cream barbecue were welcomed, when they saw that next to, next to the Impossible and Gardein products. However, we want to now grow the markets and want to go after the people who are not as familiar with the plant based, but who are, looking for an innovative type of frozen product.

Especially, Asian foods again, if they have been a fan of different type of Asian foods, whether through innovations or P. F. Chang's or other type of, Korean foods, you know, those are our target customers. What we thought we could really bring to the table in this plant based industry in the United States was just that we want to make [00:12:00] it more interesting, more diverse and with more unique.

I think people. underestimate that the, it wasn't just about the mimicry of the plant based meat in terms of its textures and flavor, but it was the newness of the type of products that were launching into this category because the food industry. Has not been so innovative as much as we thought it should.

So, you know, we thought, Hey, plant based is an area we could really contribute a new type of Asian foods. And that's where we're, that's where we're best at. So that's what we want to bring to the table. And I think it. It resonated well with, with the U. S. consumers, so we're very grateful for the opportunity that we're given, to sell our products at all these grocery stores.

so yeah, that's, that's kind of our target customer.

Paul Shapiro: Cool, so let me give you my theory, Ryan, and I, I don't know what is to be true, but I'm, I'm gonna ask you whether you think it may be true, or maybe you have evidence about it, true [00:13:00] or false. There is an explosion. Of interest in korean culture in the united states primarily because of you know Blockbuster hits whether it's the parasite, which is the movie that everybody loved and won all these oscars or squid game Which was like a viral phenomenon all over the world, obviously But including in the u.

s is like all anybody was talking about at my workplace with squid game or bts You know or or like, you know the band bts, which is you know You know, among the most popular bands on the planet, certainly in the United States and, is, is consumed in my household as well. Is, is it true that this explosion of interest in Korean music and Korean, film has led to an increase in interest in Korean food?

That's my theory. Do you think it's true?

Ryan Chung: Oh, for sure. Yes. Okay. Is there, is it,

Paul Shapiro: is it evidence or do you and I just believe it to be true?

Ryan Chung: there are a few, well, so it's always hard to, pinpoint the [00:14:00] correlations, whether it's causations. So, I don't think that the movie caused the food products to be all of a sudden popular, but it is really, a reasonable hypothesis to think that, just because if you look at the type of clicks.

Or the social media ranking of Korean foods right after those movie became popular. Yes, it skyrocketed There were some type of products that you know, like the sweet dalgona products That was in the squid game movie had a Tons of clicks all of a sudden it was something that was a street food that no one knew about in u.

s While everyone in korea you know, shared in their pastime, you know, Children when they were young. So I think it's evident that yes, I think it did make it interesting. However, I like to highlight that the Korean food has always been kind of one of the most popular Asian foods right after Chinese and [00:15:00] Japanese and Indian.

but it never really kind of gained as much interest. as it is doing these days, but I think it was always in people's mind that, hey, like, There are Korean restaurants that I see in my neighborhood. They probably go there once a month or once every quarter and they like it. but really what gotten people's attention is those, the, the contents of the, the K dramas and the K movies.

In addition, I think Korea has also gained.

Paul Shapiro: Is that a term? So there's K drama, there's K pop, is K food a term? I haven't heard of it.

Ryan Chung: It is, K food is definitely a term. Yes, after K beauty. I don't know if you've heard about K beauty, but K beauty has become a very popular category of its own, and K food is definitely on the next list.

Paul Shapiro: Okay. Very cool. Very cool. So is, is Korean cuisine as vegetarian friendly as some of these other Asian cuisines that you mentioned? So, you know, you mentioned, China, you mentioned [00:16:00] India, you mentioned Japan, you know, you can go to any, any restaurant that's of those cuisines and find vegetarian options plenty plentiful on the menu.

Is that the same with Korean food as well?

Ryan Chung: Traditionally, I believe, yes, Korean food has been a very heavy on vegetarian dishes.now you wouldn't think that because the Korean food has become a very much a westernized, food in a way that the core of the, dinner table there has always been a meat.

However, if you were to go back decades, it was the, Different types of vegetable that you would come across, on every dish of, of, Korean food. So, whether that's spinach or, you know, other type of roots that are available. So Korean dish, I believe has been, you know, Always there, the core has been a vegetarian food and even though there are meat in the middle, you would always eat it with different types of vegetables.

So, yes,

Paul Shapiro: and so, like, you know, if the vegetarian protein of choice, [00:17:00] typically in China or Japan will be tofu in India, it's going to be doll or some type of lentil or, or, or P or chickpea in Korea. Is it tofu? Like, traditionally, the protein of a vegetarian dish would be tofu or something else.

Ryan Chung: Yes, Tofu is definitely, Tofu is definitely there.

Paul Shapiro: No, go ahead. Sorry.

Ryan Chung: Yes, vegetarian dish. I think tofu has been definitely the main staple of the Korean food for sure.

Paul Shapiro: So, if that is so, when Koreans buy a product with unlimited, are they replacing tofu or are they replacing meat? Like, what's the, what's the actual displacement that's happening generally?

Ryan Chung: In Korea, people are, if you're eating plant based meat in Korea, they are, I believe, replacing meat. Because tofu kind of is its own kind of food, that people are very familiar with cooking here in South Korea. There are many different types of tofus and different way of cooking, so they're not necessarily replacing tofu with plant based meat.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah, my, my experience [00:18:00] is just what you said, which is that generally speaking, in the United States, tofu is used as something to replace meat, whereas in Asia, it's It's its own category, right? Nobody expects it to mimic meat or remind you of meat. It's just a different type of protein that somebody might eat.

Ryan Chung: Right. Right. For sure.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah. And so how in, in Korea, or I know that you guys have ample distribution through, mainland China and you're in Starbucks in Hong Kong, you're in, Domino's and you're in subway. Like, you know, you've got some pretty good penetration. In Asia right now. So why are people buying it?

Right? So the people you're, you're saying that folks are replacing animal meat with the product is the main reason for health is it for environmental protection? Do they care about animal welfare? Like, what's the reason that somebody in Korea, or maybe Singapore or Hong Kong would say instead of conventional bulgogi I want on the meat bulgogi.

Ryan Chung: All of the above, [00:19:00] I think, but I think mainly the reason I would guess, again, I wouldn't, no, I'm sure everyone has their own reasons, but the main reason has been about health, more so the animal welfare or the environment. Yes, a lot of young consumers these days have keen interest in, environment and animal welfare.

More so than, you know, our, our generation or previous generations, but I think one of the main reasons because I see. more schools, for instance, and, government, agencies offering plant based meat as one of the main menus. so we say that, hey, the reason these nutritionists who basically make a choice for, the food is choosing plant based meat, as one of the main, foods.

So we believe health is probably on the heart of the, at the heart of the choice.

Paul Shapiro: Okay. Yeah. So, you know, it's interesting. I can in the U. S. That's definitely the case that you look at the average plant based meat consumer in the U. S. And health is by far and away the top three, which, which is interesting because a [00:20:00] lot of the founders of these companies.

Are have started their companies because of their passion about the environment or climate change or animal welfare or some combination thereof but the average customer is not really motivated by those things It's a night. It's like a nice to have but they're really want something that's healthier for them, which is a big driver Obviously the product has to taste good.

It needs to be cost effective for them but the the main benefit that these customers seem to think is that and that's motivating them is that, you know, it might have less saturated fat or zero cholesterol or something like that. and so, you know, it's it's interesting because the marketing of these companies has to be that you know This is something that tastes great that happens to be better for you rather than the marketing of what their founders may want Have you found the same like how is on the meat marketed?

What are the claims that you guys are making in the market both in the u. s and in asia?

Ryan Chung: Sure. definitely health is one of the reasons that, we started this business and also, we are trying to make the [00:21:00] products healthier and cleaner, by eliminating any type of ingredients that are, you know, deemed.

However, as you and I know, there have been a lot of, you know, contentious about the plant based meat being processed, but, you know, we're just trying to stick to the core of what we know to be healthy. to be relatively healthy, than some of the products that you come across or compare against. but, you know, what I've learned, as you said, is, is that why are people buying our products?

health is definitely one of them, but as we are diversing into different types of plant based, foods beyond just the plant based meat, we want people to choose our products. not purely because of health reasons, but really because they are delicious and they are interesting to try. I think the way to get over this hurdle of growing this industry more than what we have done so far is for people to get not so stressed about, what they choose to eat [00:22:00] and whether plant based meat is, you know, healthier than regular meat or, you know, or salads or whatever.

you know. There are many different reasons everyone chooses foods based on their own needs. And their own metabolism. So, while health is definitely important and we'll always try to keep the ingredients minimal and try to, only keep the healthy ones. That doesn't mean that we're gonna, we're gonna, you know, forget about the taste or the deliciousness or the innovation of our type of products for people to choose.

Paul Shapiro: So you alluded to this criticism of plant based meat that has had some effect I think at least in the United States Which is that it's overly processed Needless to say I think that most people if they were to see how conventional meat is produced would would not be so pleased they would not be pleased to see how animals are turned into meat at the same time we have to deal with the reality that this is seeming to have some impact I don't know how much like I think that actually You The cost is probably a bigger barrier in [00:23:00] an inflationary environment.

People have less money to spend on food, and so they're less likely to spend on products that are frankly much more expensive than conventional animal based meat. All of that said, the reality in the United States is that plant based meat is going through a tough time. the capital environment is quite dry for this industry.

The stock price of the, of beyond meat has fallen over 95%. The only other publicly traded plant based meat company here, the very good butchers went out of business. and it's been a tough time, right? Demand is overall down for plant based meat in the United States. Has this impacted you all? Or are you seeing growth in the United States?

Or are you continuing to also see the same thing that other plant based meat companies are here?

Ryan Chung: Yes, we definitely feel for the environment in which the plant based has,become, we're still kind of small enough, to see the growth and, more people are choosing our products. So that's great.

But yes, I do see, several companies that I met, at the [00:24:00] expo, for instance, two years ago are no longer around and it's very kind of, you know, sad to see the trend in which it was headed. But I think, again, there is still a hope, and I think every plant based food company could learn from, the past mistakes and also kind of see what we can do different going forward.

Paul Shapiro: I think a lot of What are those mistakes? You think the mistakes are the ingredient deck, or is it something else?

Ryan Chung: I think a lot of things, but, what I kind of As I think about the past couple of years of the plant based industry, I think, a lot of founders have a great progress to make the science work, to make the meat taste like, to make plant based meat taste like meat.

What we're forgetting, however, was about the customer experience and the consumer side where we were so hung up on this dichotomy of plant versus meat. We're positioning the plant based meat [00:25:00] as something that is, to replace the meat when it reaches the parity, taste parity, for instance, to begin with.

But I think, again, taste parity is not the end all be all solutions. Just because something tastes like meat doesn't mean that someone will all of a sudden switch from meat to plant based. Because there comes more play, something more play than just a taste parity. So, I think A lot of companies, a lot of founders and plant based industry talk about Electric vehicle and Tesla.

And as someone who worked there for a few years, one thing that I learned from that company was that it wasn't just the electrification of a car that led people to buy the products in many ways, Tesla car, when it first came out and still is, was better and more interesting in design, it was faster.

It had a cooler features, whether it's infotainment or whether it's using a mobile app [00:26:00] to, you know, bring your car to you. Those things didn't exist and people bought Tesla, not just because it was EV and it was good for environment, probably actually mattered less, but it's just because it's a cooler car to drive around.

And that's what we're, I think we're getting. And we were so kind of focused on trying to make the taste look like meat, but to really people want. want this or do people want something more and different? So I think that's that's kind of the mind that we all have to think about. And I think a lot of companies are doing it by diversifying their, their products, into like different types of meals or like impossible coming up with a corn dog.

I think it's a great example, for instance, so I think those are the efforts that that we should, kind of put keep in mind. Keep in mind to push the industry for it.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah, I definitely agree with you. In fact, I to be honest with you Think price parity is a bigger problem than taste parity for plant based meat I think you know some brands [00:27:00] especially impossible really have done a great job of Baking foods that taste quite good And, to the untrained eye, indistinguishable from animal meat.

Like if you're told that it is meat, that's one thing, but in blind taste tests, a lot of the times these products are not distinguishable, but I think the price issue is difficult. And nobody seems to have really cracked that yet to have gotten a product that is actually cheaper than meat. And it's interesting because, you know, you say, well, you make things that are more interesting that people want to choose over animal meat.

I certainly agree. And if you look at. Every single time that animals have been displaced in the economy, it's almost never through mimicry, right? It's not like Henry Ford developed a mechanical horse that could run faster than a biological horse. It's that he came up with something that's just a lot better than a horse.

You know, for thousands of years, we used goose quill pens. And nobody stopped using quills because somebody came up with a cheaper way to make a synthetic quill replica. We had metal fountain pens, which were [00:28:00] way, way better than quills for a whole variety of reasons as similarly, you know, kerosene displacing whale oil.

We had used whale oil for letting our homes for so long. It's not that kerosene. Was a mimicry of whale oil. This was just dramatically cheaper and cleaner than whale oil to use to wet our homes. And so I have wondered whether this is the case that, plant based meat needs to just get to taste parody.

Like, I think it needs to be really good. And then it needs to get to affordable levels for people. And I doubt that it needs to be an identical mimicry. And I think that is probably the wrong bar to hold up for it, honestly.

Ryan Chung: True. And also on the price point, I think, again, as you develop products that are You know, 10 times more interesting than a regular meat based products that you come across in a grocery shop again.

There will be volume and more volume. The price will get cheaper. The one I think is it's not like plant based price is higher because they're making greater margins because [00:29:00] the cost is higher. The cost is higher because of all the M O Q's of the ingredients and also the manufacturing costs and also all the marketing costs that you have to put in in the beginning for the first couple of years.

Mhm. to make unit economics work. So, I think the price will come as you make a great products that are demanded and wanted by consumers,

Paul Shapiro: right? And for the untrained year and M O Q is Ryan just alluded to is a minimum order quantity. So, yes, small companies, if they want to get good prices on ingredients, need to buy really large volumes of ingredients.

And then they sit there and pray that they can sell all this stuff. But, yeah, so, I, I hope that you're right. I mean, it's pretty interesting, though, that, you know, even companies that have been around for a long time, Morningstar and so on, or companies that have enormous, raised enormous amounts of money.

Sometimes billions, still aren't at price parity. And, you know, I, I was in London last year and I went to KFC and saw that corn Q U O R N was [00:30:00] on the menu and KFC in London at essentially at price parity. With the conventional chicken sandwich, which was extremely impressive to me. I was like blown away by this.

So that was so cool. And I would love to know, like, how does it perform? You know, when you have at the same restaurant, a comparable product that is about the same price, how does it perform? I don't know the answer. I'd love to find out though.

Ryan Chung: Yep. Yeah, for sure. I think definitely. Also, we have to be kind of creative, in terms of pricing.

One thing I.I noticed, by traveling so frequently between the United States and Korea, we're in an inflationary period for sure. And, the way I saw different restaurants cope with was, different, like in the United States, you made the portions bigger because you had to increase the price. so now, I don't know, a meal, it launches anywhere from like 20 or 15 to 20.

what the Korean restaurants did was they actually reduced [00:31:00] the portions without increasing the price. So, yes, you may feel a little bit hungry, but you didn't feel the price was higher. So, I, again, I'm sure there are different dynamics and different reasons for doing it, but how do we want to make this work in this time of period?

Like, do we want to change our portion size or do we need to change our pricing? depending on, you know, again, what your consumer preferences may be, but also what other products are doing. But, I think we have to think pricing a little bit more differently, maybe.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah, yeah, pretty interesting. Maybe that's the answer now.

Smaller, smaller portion sizes in a package that it would still be the same price, but fewer ounces. Who knows? you know, speaking of the, you said Korean restaurants did this. I shop at Asian supermarkets pretty regularly. generally maybe like once or twice a week in where I live in Sacramento.

And it's always amazing to me that Asian supermarkets in the United States usually have really incredible plant based meat [00:32:00] sections, like very extensive plant based meat sections, both in the frozen section and refrigerated and actually canned plant based meats and even dry plant based meats that you hydrate yourself at home.

And my experience is that most of these are produced in Taiwan, which has a strong vegetarian Buddhist tradition. Is that the same in Korea? like it, like all these products, not all, but most of them that I look at, they're coming from Taiwan. So is that the same in Korea that there is like the strong Buddhist tradition of vegetarianism, or is that unique to Taiwan?

Ryan Chung: I think that is unique to Taiwan. Korea is not, as of a Buddhist country anymore as, as we would think.there are, there's no separate plant based category in a Korean grocery stores, but it's kind of, it's spread across different category. So you wouldn't think that you'd be choosing plant based, but at the end of the day, again, it's meat or not meat, and there is a great portions of not meat sections.

in the Korean grocery as well. [00:33:00]

Paul Shapiro: Are are you I I presume I know that you all raised like 23 million US dollars to build this factory in Korea I presume all of your products are produced there and then shipped frozen to the United States. Is that correct?

Ryan Chung: Yes today we make everything in house, in Korea and we ship it to the United States

Paul Shapiro: So what portion of your total cost is the shipping cost to ship across the pacific ocean frozen?

Ryan Chung: shipping cost is actually only a less than like 10 to 20 percent or so You So it's not that of a Big portion of our of our of our cost. and obviously the price varies. you know, a few years ago it was a lot higher. Now, it's lower. but it's really, it's not the shipping part of it, but it's, it's everything else.

Paul Shapiro: Okay. Yeah. And I'm regularly surprised because when I, when I look at the frozen plant based meats that are coming over from Taiwan, oftentimes they are still cheaper than brands like Impossible Foods, which are produced here in the United States. So I don't know how they're doing it. Maybe it's cheaper labor costs.

I don't know. Or maybe [00:34:00] cheaper energy. I'm really not sure. But it's pretty impressive to see.

Ryan Chung: Yeah. I think, I mean, also labor costs probably yes. But, what I realized is the transportation cost within the country, like within the United States in order to move anything from anywhere from even California to Northern California to Southern California, or from Northern California to Chicago.

It costs a lot more than, transportation costs within Korea, just because again, Korea is such a small country. So manufacturing involves typically. manufacturing of different types of goods across different locations. And I think countries like Taiwan and Korea is a lot more efficient just because of the size of the country, the transportation costs less.

So the manufacturing cost is, is lower than. then the United States or, or Europe.

Paul Shapiro: That's pretty interesting. Okay. let me ask you, Ryan, a couple of years ago, you put out a press [00:35:00] release about your entrance into the U. S. market. I'm going to quote from the press release here and then ask you what you think about it today at 20 at the end, or, you know, now I guess it's 2025.

So Thank you. You wrote given current trends emphasizing value consciousness and ethical consumption It's likely the market share of alternative meats in the total meat market will be as high as 60 percent by the year 2040 So right now as you know, the plant based meat market is less than one percent of the total meat market But you're suggesting at least a couple years ago.

You were suggesting That within 15 years from now, it may be as high as 60 60 percent. Do you think that's realistic?

Ryan Chung: I don't think so. It's not coming. It's 60%. So I think it was total. yeah.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah. I mean, look, people get forecast wrong, but what do you think is realistic then? So, a few years later, if you were writing this press release now, what would you think in 15 years by 2040? If it's less than 1 percent today, you think it'll be 5 [00:36:00] percent 10 percent 20 percent needless to say, nobody has a crystal ball and notice, but if you were just, you know, Guessing based on what you think might happen.

When do you think that plant based meat will reach a more substantial percentage of the total meat market?

Ryan Chung: I'm hoping that in, again, when I'm alluding to plant based, I'm talking about plant based category as a whole. Obviously there are a variety of plant based products, you know, whether you're talking about the alternative dairy versus meat, there is a great variety.

But overall, I'm hoping that the plant based category at least make up about 10 percent of the entire industry. whether that's again, meat or entree or appetizers, et cetera.

Paul Shapiro: Cool. Yeah. It's interesting because, you know, you mentioned plant based milk in the U S the, the liquid milk market now is 15 percent plant based, 5, 1, 5%, which is about 15 times [00:37:00] more than the plant based meat market.

So, you know, the question is why, like, why are people much more likely to drink soy milk or almond milk or oat milk or whatever than they are to eat meats made out of these same exact products. My guess is because people care a lot more about meat than they do about milk like right? I think more people and there's probably more of a health issue that people associate With milk whether from lactose intolerance or they just think it's unnatural to drink milk from another species or whatever it is But that's what I I think it is and the price issue too.

But what do you why do you think? There's that disparity you mentioned that it's very different. What do you think is the reason that's driving so much greater? demand for plant based milk than plant based meat right now

Ryan Chung: You That's a good question. I've been thinking about it actually, for quite some time, but, a few things, one, kind of going back to what we were talking about a different category and category of its own.

I think, again, the type of alternative dairy has made itself as a category of its own, not [00:38:00] as a kind of mimicry of milk. So I think there was a great, positioning of the, of the products. And, if you were to. and also milk. I think as you grow older, it's not something that you'd be as as used to or as something that you drink on a daily basis as meat is.

So there is the consumption pattern that is distinct between the meat Versus milk, which is, you know, not something you, I don't know, usually drink when you're young. It's something that you drink when you're young to get calciums, but, not so much after you've grown up. Um,so that's kind of my kind of, hypothesis.

But I think really the core is that oatmeal by itself or the almond milk by itself, especially when you mix it with coffee or other, other. beverages is good by itself. So it's, it's different. And, and sure you may [00:39:00] say, Hey, it's not as sweet as, as milk for sure, but that's okay because you know, For me, that's just kind of a good level of sweetness already in here.

And if I, if I wanted to make it a little bit sweeter, I would, you know, put, you know, sweeteners as opposed to just drink milk. So, and having, having its own kind of distinct characteristic matters.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah, yeah, that's quite, yeah, that's quite interesting. And I think also one of the factors to consider is, yes, the plant based milk market is much greater, but also milk as a liquid product has been in decline in the United States for decades.

Right? And it's largely not because people are switching to soy milk or almond milk, but because people are switching to water, they're switching to bottled water or soda or other things. So, there, there are other competitors to that in the beverage market for sure. and, But anyway, hopefully plant based meat will will continue to gain market share in the way plant based milk has

Ryan Chung: Yeah, yeah, for sure.

And that's what, again, the whole idea of, hey, we want [00:40:00] to make this interesting and the way we're doing it is with the Asian cuisine. So luckily, as you said, the Korean food is gaining popularity of, of, of, of U. S. consumers and we're grateful for it. and we want to kind of bring different types of innovative Korean food.

foods in a plant based fashion to them so that it's not about the plant based or it's not about health or environment. Hey, these are new type of products that Maybe you haven't tried it or maybe you tried it when you're in korea But you didn't have a chance to do it in the united states. So let us know what you think that's why we're launching things like the buldak chicken kimbap and you know sausage kimbap and different types of jumeokbap that we're offering Today,

Paul Shapiro: exciting.

Well, we're going to include links on the show notes for this episode of business for good podcast. com, where people can get your products, whether you want to order the unlimited, jerky from amazon. com or other places where you can get it. So we'll include all of that on there for listeners for sure.

but you know, Ryan, you've been involved in [00:41:00] a number of interesting companies, and I presume that as somebody who has had the experiences that you've had, that there've been a good number of things that have been helpful for you. Resources that you have benefited from that you might recommend to somebody else who's inspired by the journey that you've had So are there any things that you would recommend for people that they are interested in trying to do something good through business?

Ryan Chung: Sure. I mean the book there are many different books that I that I've read and have been very helpful but the one that I personally, really was was great to come across was the Innovators by Walter Isaacson It's a, I think it was published in 2014 or so, but it's a book about how, you know, a group of, you know, people actually created the whole digital revolution.

It wasn't just about Bill Gates and Steve Jobs, which were, you know, really immensely grateful, but there were a lot of people before them who created transistors, who were, who create the, the Boolean logic. So [00:42:00] who worked on the semiconductor that made everything possible. So this book kind of helped me not only, you know, get tremendous interest in the, the, overall innovation space.

but I think it's a good reminder that, you know, for every industry to kind of continue, there will always be a group of people who kind of made a contribution, whether big or small. And, and we should be thankful and grateful for those people as well as people we see on the media.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah, very cool. you know, it's funny you mentioned, I've wanted to read The Innovators for some time and you're going to probably push me over the edge to read it.

I haven't read it. But I did read a really cool book that is somewhat similar by Melissa Schilling, who we actually had on this podcast some many years ago, but her book is called Quirky. And it's essentially a book about the most creative inventors of all time. So people like Elon [00:43:00] Musk, Marie Curie, and, and what they have in common and their quirkiness.

And it's a really cool book. Just looking at some of the commonalities between some of the, most prolific inventors of all time. So I'll include links to both the innovators and the quirky in the show notes for this episode of business for good podcast. com. But I appreciate the book recommendation, right?

Cause I, you're gonna, you're catalyzing me to go read this now. Sure. Cool.

Ryan Chung: So you'll love it. Yeah.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah. Cool. Finally, let me ask you, Ryan, are there any companies that you hope that somebody else will start? Obviously you've been involved in, clean energy transportation now in the clean protein space.

Is there something that you wish existed that nobody has done well yet?

Ryan Chung: sure. Just because I've been, thinking a lot about this particular area. let me share. It's the distribution. For any small companies who have tried to put their products on the shelf, you know quickly that it's not just about how great of your product is, but how you get that products [00:44:00] to the consumer's hands.

And, there have been a lot of, challenges, you know, personally, you know, within our company, but I see that as a kind of, A bigger thing than just, you know, what our company experience recently, there was an even article in Wall Street Journal about, you know, why your price is high and maybe distribution has something to do with it.

I believe that, there is a room for improvements. it's not like the current, you know, companies are, bad or making all the margins. Actually, distribution company's margin, if you look at public record, is very small. It just costs a lot of money to put your products on, on the consumer's hands.

And I hope that someone can really help solving it because that will make innovation a lot kind of easier and cheaper and more accessible. I mean, just as an, again, as an example, again, Korea is, is, is probably not the best country to compare, but because it's so much smaller than the United States.

But if you were to order food, before midnight in here, you'll get [00:45:00] that products to your doorstep like the next morning by 6 AM. and I don't mean. Ordering products from a grocery store, and I mean, if you order products from a manufacturer, you can get it within 24 hours or less than that, at like 1 10th of a cost.

I don't know how they make that possible again. That's kind of still an amazing mystery to me. if they are doing it sustainably and profitably, but if we can somehow, fix the distribution, here in the United States, I think they will make, They'll make, you know, innovation and CPC industry a whole lot more interesting.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah, all right. Very cool. You know, it's funny. You mentioned this. It's obviously like one of the least sexy parts of food business, right? It's distribution, right? People are like, oh, what about the branding? How does it taste? Right? What's the price? It reminds me of a comment that Josh Tetrick made to me one time, the CEO of Eat Just.

I know you guys have partnered with them on a Just Egg product with your meat as well. But he said, you know, right [00:46:00] now I'm setting most of my trying time My time trying to negotiate better frozen storage deals, you know, like that's it, you know, like, you know, that's like the, the biggest thing, right? you just, the things that you have to do in the food industry that are behind the scenes.

And most people don't think about are definitely manifold. So, hopefully somebody will come up with a way for small companies to get better and cheaper distribution, Ryan, and there'll be inspired by you and then we'll have them on the show. And they'll say, yes, when I heard, Ryan Chung in 2025, that's what led me to do this.

So, we'll keep my fingers crossed. So that person gets in touch with us, but Ryan, it's really great to talk with you. I'm inspired by what you guys are doing at UnleMeet. And I very much hope to see you all take over the rest of Asia, the United States and beyond with the products as we continue to scale and innovate.

So congratulations on all your success and I look forward to getting more of your products here.

Ryan Chung: Thank you.