business for good podcast episode 54 - chris bryson

From Startup Founder to Investor & Philanthropist: Chris Bryson’s Wild Ride to Do Good

Chris Bryson: [00:00:00] I do have that founder it, I'm keen to get involved with the team again and, and sort of build a company from scratch. There's nothing like it, and so I just wanna make sure that the next company that I start is impact oriented. I want to get outta bed every day knowing that we're doing everything that we can to make as big of a difference as possible.

Welcome to The Business

Paul Shapiro: For Good podcast to show where we spotlight. Companies making money by making the world a better place. I'm your host, Paul Shapiro, and if you share a passion for using commerce to solve many of the world's most pressing problems, then this is the show for you. Welcome friends to the 54th episode of Business for Good.

And I can assure you it is a truly inspirational one. That is because most startups. No, that's not the inspirational part. In fact, many startups that don't film still don't have spectacular results, and no, that's not the inspirational part either. What is inspirational though? Chris Bryson defied those odds by founding and running a company that was so successful.

Instacart acquired it for a reported 65 million. [00:01:00] Dollars now rather than retiring to a tropical beach. With regular dary service, Chris charted a different course for his new life. Instead of leisurely enjoying the financial fruit of his labor, Chris has decided to use his wealth to invest in alternative protein startups seeking to displace animals in the food industry's supply chain.

Convinced that the most good he can do in the world is to help divorce meat production from animal farming. Chris has already seeded a number of plant-based and cultivated meat startups with cash to hopefully drive them to the same kind of success he had as a startup founder himself. Additionally, Chris has now also decided to try his hand at cereal entrepreneurship and is starting his own alternative seafood venture himself.

Will Chris be like LeBron and bring home another championship for a different team? Will he be like Jordan and moved from being a player to a coach for his new invest? How to becoming a multimillionaire? Change his life. Hear his inspirational tale in this podcast about Chris Bryson's Wild Ride to try to do good in the world.

[00:02:00] Chris Bryson, welcome to the Business for Good podcast.

Chris Bryson: Thanks for having me, Paul. It's great to be here.

Paul Shapiro: It is awesome to be with you. So let's just get right down to it. Uh, like 90% of startups fail. You are the founder of one of those, uh, rarefied 10% that didn't fail and that had a very lucrative acquisition.

So, Liska started talking about Unata. You started it, uh, when, in 2011, right? Correct. Why, why would you do this? Why, why did you have an interest in it and what was unit.

Chris Bryson: Great question. So at the time, I'd spent about five years in the corporate world, and at the time when I left the corporate world and started Unata, I'd had this effectively, this light bulb moment.

We were working with a lot of retailers who were. Trying their best to understand how to work in the, in a very digital world, how to sell to their customers. Now that we were all carrying phones in our pockets and I saw a huge opportunity, specifically within the grocery sector to help retailers [00:03:00] better reach their customers.

So we built Unata to allow grocery stores to sell their groceries online and to manage all of their digital. And to be honest, it was, you know, in terms of why did I do it, I was just in love with the whole concept. Um, and I didn't feel like I had a choice. So just leaving my job and starting this just felt like, you know, the right thing to do.

So how

Paul Shapiro: did you get started? Did you just, you know, work in the proverbial garage? Did you have any venture backers as it friends and family? Like what was the genesis of the financing of the. It

Chris Bryson: was completely unexpected. In fact, at the time that I got the idea I was working for, uh, you know, arguably a large corporate entity, and the idea was very relevant to that business, and I had no intention of starting a business, even though probably it's to some extent in my D n A, both my parents or entrepreneurs.

But I first took the business plan to my company and I said, here's where I [00:04:00] think there's a tremendous opportunity for you as a business to start exploring digital. and I brought, brought them that business plan, hoping like, Hey, can you promote me so I can do this instead of my regular job ? And I was thinking, oh, they're, they're gonna love this.

This is gonna be great. I'm gonna come back Monday morning and I'm gonna have this great new set of responsibilities. And they took their time, they came back and a few weeks later they said, look, we're really excited about this idea, but we genuinely don't know how to start a new division and, and how this would work.

So just from a logistical perspective, it doesn't seem to make. So I sat down with members of the organization and I said, look, if, if, if innovation within your four walls isn't something that, that right now is the right time to sort of spend time on, um, how about you invest outside of your four walls?

And I have every intention of going out and doing this, you know, starting this company. Why don't we do it together? And so they were interested in that. I think that was very progressive of them. The c e o of the company at the time was a [00:05:00] really, really, uh, forward-looking gentleman. We had a great relationship and so I quit my job and then, um, they became our first investor.

Paul Shapiro: Wow, that's really cool. Well, I've never heard a story like that, Chris, where somebody just had a regular job and then their company ended up becoming the first investor of that. So, respect to you for earning their confidence in, in making that happen. Thank you. Um, So, uh, you know, we're not gonna talk too much about the, uh, seven years that you were, um, running Unata, except I do wanna know, you know, seven years after it, you have this big acquisition by Instacart.

Um, it was said that, uh, publicly the company was not disclosing what the terms of the acquisition were, however, Bloomberg reported at the time that according to insiders with knowledge of of the deal, it was about a 65 million US dollar. Uh, acquisition. So, um, you can blink once if that's true, or twice if it's not.

Okay.

Chris Bryson: It's correct that, that Bloomberg did report [00:06:00] that .

Paul Shapiro: Okay. Uh, so, you know, you were the founder. You have a 65 million allegedly, uh, acquisition. Uh, you know, for most people that's a, a massive fantasy come true. What do you think it was that you did right that made you unata such an interesting and lucrative target of acquisition for

Chris Bryson: Instacart?

This might sound a little. Cheesy, but I think we built a team that cared. Um, I, I, I think we had a tremendous culture. Uh, not that just, you know, of people that got along, but we celebrated innovation and we, we respected open dialogue. We were very transparent with the team. Uh, so me and my, my partner, effectively my ceo, C O o, uh, whose name is Mark, I think we.

Created a culture where people felt safe to share ideas, to approach me or him with any concerns that we had. We never created the expectation that we were perfect or [00:07:00] that we had everything figured out. And so as a result, by creating that open dialogue, I feel there was so much more buy-in from the employee group.

We all felt like we were really one team and we, we over time, Very much doubled down on our values, on our culture, and I think that exponentially grew our capability to put out great product. We also applied that kind of culture. I think with our, with our clients, we tried to create a very collaborative approach, um, yet trying to be forward looking.

So I think what we did right is, you know, we, we tried to sort of, um, build that culture where people were much more motivated to put in that extra little bit.

Paul Shapiro: How many people were working there at the time of the acquisition?

Chris Bryson: We were just, we were just shy of a hundred when we were

Paul Shapiro: require. . Okay. And how much capital had the company raised by that time in, in those seven years?

Chris Bryson: So the wonderful thing about Canada is there's lots of non-dilutive, um, funding opportunities that you can [00:08:00] get access to, but I won't talk about that. Um, because, so this number might look inordinately small. So we raised in terms of dilutive capital, I think shy of 3 million, which is pretty crazy. There certainly were other granting facilities and other great Canadian government opportunities that we leveraged, so there was more capital than that, but yeah, some, I think it was between 2.5 and 3 million of dilutive capital.

Paul Shapiro: So essentially more than 20 times. Um, what you had raised in dilutive capital was the exit. .

Chris Bryson: Yeah. Our, our, our first investors were, were happy .

Paul Shapiro: I can imagine. Um, okay, so you've been acquired by Instacart and you kept working there. Uh, why, why, why didn't you just take your millions and go your merry way?

Why'd you keep on working at Instacart after they had acquired y uh, Janata?

Chris Bryson: Great question. So I mean, Instacart, what was the reason why they were the right home for us is our visions were so aligned with where we saw the industry going. When we, when we looked at Instacart, we [00:09:00] realized that there was gonna be a lot of work to sort of integrate both companies and it's not an easy thing to do.

And the last thing I would wanna do is say, Hey, here's a great career opportunity for all of you. We're now part of this bigger family. See ya. I would never do that to my team. Um, so even though I had decided that at some point I was gonna sort of close out this chapter, I wanted to see both the team end up in the right place.

And I also wanted to make sure that our clients and the technology we'd built, uh, were gonna be on the right footing and set up for success. So there, you know, obviously we, we spent a lot of time building, building what we had built, and, uh, we just wanted to make sure that we left the right legacy. Well, speaking

Paul Shapiro: of leaving, how long before you were gone from Instacart, like how long did you keep on, uh, staying at the helm of this new division of Instacart before you decided to depart?

Chris Bryson: It was, uh, just shy of two years. . Okay.

Paul Shapiro: So let me just ask you, uh, like how did becoming a multimillionaire change your life? You know, like what's different now for you, ? [00:10:00]

Chris Bryson: Well, it's, it, you know, it's funny. I, I don't think of it that way. Um, the, it, it cha it came at a very odd time in my life. Uh, I think when I had had dreams of being an entrepreneur.

It wasn't so much about, Hey, I wanna see the, the figures in my bank account change. It was, I want to be able to go play drums in my basement all day long, , and like throw my hair out and not have to, you know, do the regular. Nine to five kind of stuff. That's the stuff that got me really, really excited is, is the possibilities that a financial, um, change of events would, would enable for me.

So the way I think that it, it's changed things for me is certainly I'd always dreamt of, you know, trying to be that, uh, wanna be rockstar. But, um, cuz I, I, I do play some music with, with my buddies, but I think what was unexpected is the time at which. I sold my company coincided with when I went, uh, if you will, deep down the rabbit hole of, of, [00:11:00] uh, learning about factory farming.

And it had a profound impact on my life. It made me realize I want to change everything. It made me change, uh, what I eat. It made me change the products, uh, that I would buy. And frankly, it has had a huge impact on what I've decided to do with all my resources, not just my money, but also my time. So I am, while I probably had, had this not happened, had I not looked behind the curtain, I'd probably just, you know, be figuring out how to start another software company and be working on some music.

But I'm now spending, uh, a huge amount of my time instead. Coaching inve, investing in plant-based startups or alternative protein startups. Um, I'm looking at potentially starting a company in that space and I've also gotten involved with a bunch of wonderful not-for-profit organizations that are trying to make the world, uh, a better place.

Paul Shapiro: Well, that's awesome, and I, I certainly want to spend the bulk of our time talking about that. [00:12:00] But first, you know, you say you've got a chance to look beyond the curtain. Why, why, why did you get that chance? Did somebody, did you see an ad, did somebody hand you a brochure? Like, what was the genesis for you of going down that rabbit hole about learning regarding factory farming?

Chris Bryson: It, it's hard to pinpoint one particular thing. I mean, I could rattle off probably about three to five that that had a tremendous impact. So, I started fostering pets at home and I realized, for example, that I wanted to be able to scale that up. So in natural c e o kind of mentality, you're always thinking about, okay, well how do I do this at a 10 x, uh, you know, run rate of what I'm doing, but, you know, in six months and you can't necessarily go from fostering a couple of animals to having 60 of them in your home.

It's not very practical , but it, it sort of, as I was doing that process and, and thinking about scaling my impact, it was also becoming obvious to me that I was caring for one species but not necessarily, uh, doing as much for others. And I [00:13:00] realized there was a disconnect there. I also, just like everyone else, I'm sure, watched a bunch of documentaries that I think were influential in changing my diet and my perspective.

There was one in particular that, that document. Uh, the, the, the story of, uh, Ingrid Newkirk, who's the, the founder of Pita, and there were just a couple of, I, I don't think to this day, I've actually finished that documentary because there were just a couple of images that were seared into my mind. And when I realized what sort of we collectively as, as the human race are capable of, it just, it made me realize that there's just something that needs to be done about it.

So it was a, it was a confluence of things. I'd been vegetarian for quite some time, but I wasn't necessarily. Diving deep into like what's the real reality behind it? And I think part of that was I was really too occupied with running my company and wanting to see that be successful. Now that I'd sold the company, I had really no excuse, uh, not to look behind the curtain and really dive into that.[00:14:00]

Paul Shapiro: Interesting. Yeah. I think the documentary you're referring to is called I Am An Animal, uh, the H B O film about, about Ingrid Nukum. We'll, we'll link to that documentary in the show notes for this episode for anyone who, who wants to see it. It is quite a, a potent documentary for sure. Um, So you said, Chris, that you started looking beyond the curtain.

This was in 2018, so the year that Yado was acquired, and then you're now working at Instacart. You've become vegan and you're getting increasingly interested in, in animal issues. Did you think while you were at Instacart, I, I'm actually gonna devote my life to this topic? Or was it after you left that you made that realization?

Chris Bryson: It was probably midway through the transition, so I'd already become. Really enamored with the stories of companies like Beyond Meat and Impossible Foods. I'd been following them for quite some time. I mean, in Canada, we didn't have the Impossible Burger up until two weeks ago. So whenever I'd go to the States, I would go out of my way to find restaurants [00:15:00] that would serve it, and that was such a cool experience for me And.

That was even before I was, I went vegan. To me that was what was so exciting is it was, uh, an embodiment of, of tech, you know, it was just tech, but applied to food and that was much more interesting to me. So I think there were, there, that was sort of another precursor that brought me on board. And so I was already in the back of my mind thinking about, okay, well if you're ever gonna do another startup, maybe this is the right category.

So while I was still at Instacart, I mean, I, I began looking at doing some angel investing. So I. Um, doing that sort of on the side, but I hadn't sort of, I, I, I never at any point thought I'd got, I would get involved sort of in any philanthropic capacity or getting involved with any NGOs. I think that was, um, that was sort of completely unexpected.

And it happened at the same time as I was having to do some mundane things like plan my taxes, uh, after having sold the company and sit sitting down with my accountant and thinking about, okay. [00:16:00] Do you wanna pay this much to the government or do you wanna maybe donate a significant portion? Mm-hmm. . So it, it's sort of, I think all these things sort of happen at the right time, but to answer your question, no, I, I, I no way ever expected to find myself doing what I'm doing today.

Paul Shapiro: Uh, it's so interesting how often that happens that things that become totally all consuming to us would've been like totally foreign to us just a few years earlier. And yeah, it reminds me of the saying, you know, humans plan and God laughs. Uh, we have, you know, we have very, very little, uh, , very little, uh, acumen at our life planning, it seems.

Uh, so, alright, we're now in the story, Chris. Instacart, you've left that company. You're now trying to think, how am I gonna do good in the world? You've made a decision that you wanna focus on trying to alleviate some of the misery that that humans inflict on other animals. So you're concerned about factory farming, you start angel investing.

What are the types of the companies that you're looking to invest in, and what [00:17:00] are the average investment sizes that you're seeking for these early stage C? ,

Chris Bryson: great question. So the angel investment, um, started I think about a year and a half ago. I started exploring what was out there, and at the time you begin to form your own thesis as to what's gonna be more successful.

But the general broad categories are. There's everything from plant-based products to products that are created through fermentation or recombinant proteins. And then you have everything that's cell-based. And I've, I've basically looked at and invested in all three categories. There are some that I, I believe I would rather put more in than others.

Um, and I'm happy to explain. Why, but effectively most of the time I'm typically writing an initial check of, of $25,000 and then reserving another $75,000 for that startup, uh, for follow on. Sure.

Paul Shapiro: So let me ask you, why invest as opposed to offer grants? Obviously you'd like to see a return on your investment, but you were the [00:18:00] beneficiary of a lot of non-dilutive uh, capital.

Have you ever thought about, you know, in the same way that you're, let's say, giving to non-profit organizations, have you ever thought. Just giving to these c. ,

Chris Bryson: great question. Um, I not, not kind of in the way that you had described. Um, certainly something I'd be, I'd be happy to consider, but I think more broadly speaking in terms of my, my financial portfolio, I think the angel investment represents a very small minority relative to what I'm giving to the movement.

Mm-hmm. . Um, and that's cause my, my,

Paul Shapiro: by the movement do you mean by, sorry, by the movement, Chris, do you mean nonprofit organizations or are you considering these companies part of the movement? I, I

Chris Bryson: am, but I, my theory of change is that, uh, well there's a couple things. So fundamentally, I do believe the alternative protein, um, industry is the best.

chance we have at, at really changing the factory farming landscape. Mm-hmm. . Um, I think that great things can be [00:19:00] accomplished with technology. I've seen it firsthand. I mean, we also have all seen it, you know, we don't have CD players anymore. Uh, as much as I wish we did, you know, to enjoy albums for front to back, but, um, you know, technology can is, is really the, the best way to change human behavior.

And so applying that model to food, Is, is, is probably the best strategy that we have. That being said, um, in terms of why I think my investments are a, a, a, a, very much a minority of how I'm contributing to the movement, that's because I think that at the end of the day, financial interests will prevail.

So the for-profit motive is more likely to enable young startups to raise capital more so than a young NGO that's not gonna provide that return to an investor. Mm-hmm. . So if you look at the movement, Depending on who you talk to, the NGOs with that are, are tackling factory farming collectively raise only about 200 million a year.

Uh, you know, some people will say 150, some will say 2, [00:20:00] 2 50, but in the grand scheme of things, it's, it's small. I mean, my guess is that the, the San Francisco and the New York Opera probably will raise more. You know, not for and more funding from their donors than the entire movement against factory farming per year.

So, um, to me that, that seems like the area where you can do the most good. And so there was a, a wonderful gentleman that I met, uh, over the last couple years. His name is, is Louis Ballard, who, uh, is involved with the Open Philanthropy Project. And he introduced me to the concept of effective altruism. And I've tried to use that framework as, as a framework to.

Influence where, where my funding goes, but also how I apply my time.

Paul Shapiro: Right? I, I guess you do have to though Chris handicap it, right? So if you believe that these companies are gonna be far more effective, if you believe that technology is far more effective than trying to, you know, do what the nonprofit organizations are doing, even if the nonprofits have less money, it may be.

That the technology still is going to do [00:21:00] more, um, uh, per dollar. So, uh, as an example, I, I recently read and, and wrote a book review of a new book called Traitor to His Species. Mm-hmm. . And it's an, it's an excellent rev. Um, Book about the founder of the A S P C A Henry Berg and the book Chronicles the problems that animals in 19th century America faced.

And interestingly and soberly, pretty much every single campaign that these animal advocates in the 19th century were waging. Pretty much every single one of them is still a problem for animals today, except those that were rendered obsolete by technology. Oh man. I mean, from when you look at. Uh, whether it was, uh, the, you know, entertainment, shooting of wildlife, you know, like sport hunting or contest kills or inhumane treatment of farm animals during transport or during slaughter.

Uh, and the whisk is on and on, but the only campaigns that they actually prevailed on were ones that they weren't responsible for [00:22:00] ending. So horses were liberated, of course, not by humane sentiment, despite the fact that these animal advocates were crusading to get better conditions for working horses.

They were. By the invention of cars, right? One of the big camp, one of the big campaigns back then was trying to, um, ameliorate the suffering of farm animals who are transported by railcar from the Midwest to the eastern cities and the animal groups even, uh, sponsored contests with cash prizes to people who could create better conditions in the rail cars for these farm animals.

And then the advent of refrigeration ended. Obviating that problem because the animals were then slaughtered in the Midwest and shipped just as meat to the eastern cities. Now, their slaughter was still, uh, far from humane, but at least they were spared further days of agony on these trains. Um, and, and the whisk goes on and on.

I mean, there were big persecution campaigns against urban dogs. The animal groups tried to make the, the killing conditions better for the dogs. Um, and then in the end, the effective, uh, techno uh, technology to create [00:23:00] effective steroids for, for homeless dogs. Really rendered the problem of homeless dogs, uh, far less severe than it ever was.

And so the list goes on and on. But my question, um, after this long monologue is, you know, there doesn't seem to be a lot of evidence that promoting humane sentiment has ended any category of exploitation so far it seems like. Technology, as you point out, is the most effective thing. And so I wonder how much nonprofits, um, ought to be focused on, uh, trying to create humane sentiment and opposition to factory farming, which I, I, I don't think is bad.

I'm saying it's, I, I believe it's good. Versus advancing technologies, either through funding or other work like lobbying to get subsidies, um, or even in the way. Animal groups embraced effective sterilization campaigns for dogs, and by pruning that technology and making spay neuter a societal norm, so do, have you thought about that?

Like what these nonprofits organizations perhaps ought to be doing with that funding that you're providing them?

Chris Bryson: Absolutely. [00:24:00] Absolutely. So, I mean, even within the nonprofit sector, you have multiple different types of organizations and even within the, the funders landscape, those who are giving, you have lots of different theories of change.

So people who will give to completely different organizations than others will. So you have wonderful organizations. Um, that do sort of build up the, the alternative protein ecosystem, um, organizations like, uh, the Good Foods Institute, and they're, they're, they're a wonderful, wonderful organization, but they are entirely donor driven.

Um, and then I, I, I, I think that you brought up a very, very good point, which is, you know, technology is the best way for us to get to where we want. Um, in terms of how I can personally contribute, , a $25,000 check might help, but it's certainly not going to be a game changer. And that's why I'm so encouraged to see so many different, you know, large mission-driven funds emerging, um, who are really gonna be able to create disproportionate change.

For me in the [00:25:00] early stages, what I'm looking for in a startup is a startup that maybe is a little bit of a diamond in the rough, where my, my investment where there's 25, 50, whatever it. Is going to be incremental perhaps, where I can also provide my time and coach and sort of share what I've learned through my startup journey in any way that that can be helpful.

But to, to the extent that it can be incremental, I think I is an important notion to, to think about because if I'm just displacing another, For-profit minded investor who would've mm-hmm. invested that $25,000 I could have instead let that investor come in at $25,000 and given that $25,000 to the Good Foods Institute mm-hmm.

which might be able to, to holistically in terms of the landscape, create more change. Right. So I'm trying to always have that kind of mentality in the back of my mind in terms of like, if I think of this, these dollars at an ecosystem level, how is this happen? How is this helping incrementally? And, and in addition to that, I, I, I definitely agree that, you know, the technology path is a way [00:26:00] for us to get out of the current situation that we're in.

That being said, there are many, many sentient creatures that between now and when we get to that hopeful outcome. Are going to be caught in the system. And so the question is, on a moral level, do we have a responsibility to try to reduce the level of suffering that occurs for those animals that will be inevitably caught within the system between now and that?

You know, future outcome. And there are great organizations out there that have had a tremendous amount of success pushing for corporate change, um, through corporate campaigns, through legislative change. I think that, um, convincing people to try to go vegan and trying to appeal to their. Their conscience is a strategy that hasn't been very effective.

Um, so, so those are not the types of things that, that I sort of get behind. But there have been other efforts that have actually created, like I said, legislative or corporate campaign change that I, I, I think are um, have been documented to, to make a difference. Yeah, I agree

Paul Shapiro: with you wholeheartedly, Chris.

I think that [00:27:00] campaigns to enact policies that prohibit certain types of abuses, let's say like battery cages for laying hens, are not only good because they reduce the suffering of the animals who inevitably will be used as you correctly point out. , but they also codify social norms and make it clear that in that particular case, chickens matter.

When McDonald's in Burger King and California and Massachusetts past policies, whether corporate or public policies, it sends a message that this is a legitimate topic of societal debate and discussion, and that these animals matter. And so I, I'm all in favor of those efforts. Um, I don't think that. I don't think that, you know, it's somehow like a bad use of money to, you know, to support passing laws, to, to ban certain abuses, uh, by any means.

Um, and so I would favor the dual approach of, let's say mm-hmm , banning, banning battery cages while also starting companies like just that will make just egg and absolutely [00:28:00] plant-based eggs that are gonna be a, um, uh, be an alternative that can hopefully displace a large number of those birds in the first place.

Um, Let me ask you, you know, you mentioned Chris, uh, the types of companies that you're invested in, which specific companies though, are you an investor in which ones have earned your confidence? ,

Chris Bryson: great question. Uh, I mean, I'll name a couple. So, uh, on the, the plant-based side, uh, I've gotten involved with an amazing startup called Seattle Food Tech, are also known as rebellious foods.

I think that their approach. Um, from a technology first perspective to create chicken in a more cost effective methodology, um, using new production techniques is, is amazing. And so I'm very, very excited about their future. I think it's a very bright one. Um, there's another startup in the plant-based space that I'm very excited about as well, that's, that's taking a B2B play.

They're creating, uh, a new protein, uh, called Rub Bisco. The company itself is called Plantable Foods. They're based outta [00:29:00] San Diego and. . What's interesting about the the plant-based landscape is most of the products that we use leverage the same ingredients. You know, we're very accustomed to seeing the same proteins on the ingredient label from soy to, um, pea protein to others, right?

So, uh, or wheat, gluten or, or some of the others, but, There's a whole range of other proteins out there that have other benefits that might allow us to achieve more realistic foods. Things that, products that better emulate their, their, their meat counterparts. And so the protein that they're working with at, at plantable, I think is really, really exciting.

Has some, some amazing things going for it. Um, I've also invested in, in the cultivated meat. Um, I've been particularly enamored with startups that are, uh, trying to do good as it relates to the ocean. And so there are a couple in that are, that I've invested in, like one called Avant Meats that's focused on the Asian market and creating, uh, [00:30:00] uh, You know, seafood, uh, cultivated seafood.

That's ta that's built for the Asian market. I'm very excited about them. And there's also one that's, uh, that's here in North America called Culture Decadence, that is building, um, building, I guess is the right wrong term, but they're making, um, cultivated seafood for, for lobster and crab. And that's also a market that hasn't really gotten a lot of attention from a product development perspective.

So very excited to see them do, do that.

Paul Shapiro: Sounds like a fantastic portfolio to have and um, I certainly agree. In fact, I've routinely commented that the alternative crustacean market is one of the least explored areas for opportunity, not only from an ethical benefit. I mean, just think about the fact that it's currently considered normal to boil animals alive.

I mean, you know, future generations will surely be shocked that that was a standard practice that we all, not only accepted, but often joked about that we just boiled animals and mass alive. Um, but also, you know, [00:31:00] those type of meats are just much more expensive and so it's easier to compete on cost. You know, right now, you know, people are trying to compete on cost with chicken, which is extremely admirable for many reasons, but it's extremely.

even beef is pretty cheap. But when you start talking about lobster and crab, now you're talking about making it a far more level playing field to compete on. So, so I'm certainly rooting for the success of all the companies that you mentioned. And actually, rebellious Foods is gonna be on the show in just a little bit.

We've already scheduled that interview, so get ready to talk to Christie. Um, but also, um, Uh, I, I really hope in particular that the Crus station market will, will explode and see what can, uh, what can happen there for, for alternative crus station. Chris, when you're thinking about your investment strategy, are you looking for companies that already exist?

Are you like, you know, asking people to start companies? Have you considered that? Is there like any white spaces that you wish existed that you are encouraging people to start and you would be an early stage investor for them? Do you wait for them to come to you? Do you seek them out? Like [00:32:00] what? What's your strategy as an angel?

Chris Bryson: It's all the above. . Cool. Cool. I don't think there that, yeah. Um, I mean, I would love to see way more. Alternative protein companies being formed. I don't think we have enough yet. I, I still worry that we will look back in 10 years. I think there is, is a possible outcome or a possible future where in 10 years we look back and we look at the plant-based movement that's happening right now and all the efforts that are going into Cultivate and we think, oh, that was a fad.

Or at least, you know, people who aren't part of the movement look at it that way. And certainly that's. An outcome that I think any of us wanna see happen. But our odds will be increased if we have more competition, if we have more startups, which will lead to better products, which will lead to more customer adoption.

And I, I think there are lots of existing white spaces. The, the seafood category is one where we only have about 20 companies really competing in that space. On the plant-based side and in the cultivated side, I think there's only about 10. , there's really [00:33:00] not a lot going on in, in terms of seafood. Um mm-hmm.

there's a lot of types of meat that just haven't been explored. No one's we, we, we still haven't seen a chicken product come out to the market. I mean, I know that, that companies like Beyond will probably release that, but, We can't put all our eggs in one basket, so to speak. And , we don't only wanna see one brand, they wanna see multiple brands.

And that's good for the customer, it's good for competition. So there, you know, Turkey hasn't been tackled, ham, the list kind of goes on and on and on and on. So I, I still, uh, to answer your question, I wanna see when way more companies created. So, um, for example, I was, I was part of a, a, a presentation where a bunch of students.

Uc, Berkeley were presenting, um, their class projects and there were a couple that were working on alternative seafood products. And I remember reaching out to both of those startups, uh, or both of those class groups and sitting down with them and saying, Hey, What you're working on could actually be a real company.

You should really pursue this. And in fact, one of them I'm speaking [00:34:00] to, I think tomorrow to review their deck. They're looking at potentially doing this after they leave school. So, um, I do think we need to, to celebrate entrepreneurship, encourage it. I, I also think we need to find ways to get more dollars into the r and d.

Category. If you look at companies that have been most successful, like Impossible Foods and Beyond Meat, they have a very long history of deep r and d where they weren't releasing products for a very long time because they focused on creating products that would appeal to the mass market, not to the vegetarian and vegan market.

And that can only really be accomplished if you're gonna put in the time and the money. And so it's great if we want to create, you know, new products that haven't been tried before. Uh, or whatever it might be. But, um, if we're not willing to put an adequate amount of time into r and d to try new processes, new ingredients, we're ultimately not gonna create products that are gonna go much beyond the vegan or ve or vegetarian market.

Paul Shapiro: Right? Which is of course, a very small market. Uh, [00:35:00] sadly, I, I mean the percentage of, of vegetarians has really not changed in, in North America for decades, very sadly. So, um, and and even worse is that per person meat consumption continues to increase, not, not decrease even despite all of the progress that we're talking about here on a per person basis, even as population griz.

But on a per capita basis, meat consumption continues to rise. Emphasizing just how important it is to have. More success in this category, both for the companies that are here now and for the companies that have yet to be founded. So speaking of Chris, companies that have, uh, are either yet to be founded or are in the nascency of their founding, you hinted earlier that you are thinking about starting your own company, not just, uh, founding, not not just funding other companies, but actually founding your own.

So what is this mystery company that you want to do? Does it. Kim, what's it doing? Have you started the r and d process? Tell us the new Christmas and

Chris Bryson: Yeah. It's, it's not, it's not meant to be a, a mystery per. [00:36:00] But it, it is a result of, of what I've seen through my very short time in, in the angel investment world, uh, with the, with observations, sort of similar to what I was saying before, that we don't have enough companies being started, that there aren't enough tackling the seafood space.

So, and my other observation is that I think that while it's been great to see a lot of cultured meat companies be started over the last few years, It almost seems like I, I, I, I feel recently that I've seen way more pitches for cultured meat startups than I have for plant-based. And it's almost like we've, we've sort of jumped to that next category and I feel like there's this tremendous ocean, no pun intended, of r and d that's been skipped over.

and I, I still think there are tremendous opportunities in the plant-based base for plant-based seafood, but also for other plant-based meats. So that's the category I wanna look at. And my other observation, like I was saying before, is that I, I think we need deeper investments in r and d. So the way that I'm, I'm looking at starting my next company [00:37:00] because I do have that founder itch.

I'm, I'm keen to get involved with, with the team again and, and sort of build a company from scratch. There's nothing like it. And so I just wanna make sure that the next company that I start is impact oriented. I want to get outta bed every day knowing that, that we're, we're doing everything that we can to, to make as big of a difference as possible.

And, and so I think the best way to do that is to start with some really great foundational science. And what I'm doing currently is I'm working with a few different research facilities and university labs to conduct different experiments related to, um, alternative seafood. And so I'm hoping that over the course of, you know, a short period of time by sort of casting a wide networking with multiple different facilities that we're gonna stumble across some exciting stuff.

And then based on that early science, we'll be able to go out and then, you know, build a real company, uh, raise some venture capital and try to do as much as we.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah. Well, Chris, I gotta hand you one thing you have so far in [00:38:00] this conversation. Talked about putting all of our eggs in one basket when talking about chicken.

You've talked about an ocean of opportunity and now casting a wide to net. So your skill and acumen at puns is hopefully, uh, is hopefully, uh, going to be as strong as your cereal entrepreneurship here with this new company that, that you're founding. So, appreciate, appreciate, . Very much looking forward to hearing how that goes and, and talking about what type of cool work you're doing, uh, when you're ready to do that.

But I do wanna just comment about the point that you made regarding, Cultivated meat and plant-based meat. And so, you know, if you look at plant-based meat, which has been on the market for decades, it's still less than 1% of the total meat market. Mm-hmm. , I mean, plant-based milk or fluid milk is, you know, 13% of, of the category now is plant-based.

Uh, sadly with cheese, it's very far from the case, but it was fluid milk that is the case. And with plant-based meat, this was nowhere. I mean, it's tiny. It's less than 1%. Um, in fact, as Christie [00:39:00] Lai, the founder and c e o of Rebellious Foods points out, uh, right now on a volume basis, plant-based meat is less than half of 1% in America of all of the meat that is produced.

Um, and then if you look at cultivated meat, It's still 0.0% and it's still very expensive. And plant-based meat is still much more expensive than commodity meat. Uh, beyond Meat's goal, they say is that by 2025, they'll be cost competitive with commodity beef. And beef, of course, is the most expensive of the, you know, regular types of meat that people eat.

So I think that, uh, there's a long way to. Here for both of these categories, and they're both still in infancy, like plant-based meat may be in infancy, whereas cultured meat is embryonic. Um, but both of them are at a very early stage and it's gonna take some time for both of them to actually make the type of dent in the market that milk has made.

And even with milk, with plant-based milk, you know, nine outta 10 cartons of milk still sold are coming from cows milk. So, uh, there's still a [00:40:00] long way to go. So I am extremely bullish on these, uh, on these technologies, but I think it's important to recognize just how nascent both of them are. Yeah.

Chris Bryson: You're, you're, you're absolutely correct.

I think what's most exciting is that, you know, you can't re-engineer a cow. Uh, it, it is what it is. But the beautiful thing about, uh, and, and obviously I, I mean, There are certain species that have obviously been bred to sort of improve their their efficiencies. But I guess what's most exciting about the plant-based space is that you can put out a new version of that product every year.

So you see all these companies that are effectively taking that iterative software development mentality. Um, that's been pushed by, by Silicon Valley and you're now applying it to food tech. So beyond is gonna put out v2, v3, v4, and so on and so forth. And you're gonna see that with every large plant-based food company.

So by the time they get to V 10, it's, you know, arguably gonna be better, cheaper. Um, all around, uh, you know, better, better for you, better [00:41:00] tasting, all that kind of good stuff. So I think that while it might take a a, you know, a long time, it will come faster than it feels, and a lot can be accomplished in 10 years.

So I'm very, very bullish on the potential for, for plant-based foods. We're, as you said, very much still in the first inning. I'm just really pumped to see what V 10 looks like for all these products. I think, um, you know, they're gonna be, they're gonna be.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I'm hoping that it is truly the difference between, you know, the idea of what film was like, let's say, you know, 50 years ago and what digital film is like today.

I mean, I, I remember when actually one hour photo came out and I was so psyched. I was like, I, I can't believe we're gonna get our photos in one hour. And now, I mean, imagine if it took one. I mean, just think about how irate people would be if it took one minute to get a photo. I mean, people would be rioting.

Uh, so, uh, hopefully there will be that level of advancement and that level of difference when, uh, when we get to V 10 for sure. [00:42:00] So, Chris, you've accomplished a lot. It's a very impressive, uh, story that you've had from success as an entrepreneur and now working as an investor and now as a serial entrepreneur.

For people who would look at you and say, wow, that Chris Bryson dude really admire him. Are there any resources that you'd recommend, uh, whether books or, or speeches or videos or anything else that have been helpful for you that you would recommend to other people who maybe want to try to emulate some of the success that you've had in their own?

Chris Bryson: Sure. Uh, I will, I will admit, uh, a little bit of a secret, um, that I haven't told many people before. So over the course of, of this seven years that I was running Unata, I think I might have only read like two books, and I'm mildly embarrassed to admit that, but I, I've reflected upon that since and thought about, well, okay, we, we very much have a culture that that says, okay, you have to read as many books as possible.

And I know a lot of brilliant CEOs that are able to do that and amass the information and it really motivates them and. , if you [00:43:00] step back and think about, well, well, what is that resource, uh, that you're, you're consuming and what is the benefit of it? I think there, as an entrepreneur, there are really two kind of boxes you're trying to check, whether it's watching a video or reading a book or or doing whatever that practice might be.

And one is to refill the tank in terms of enthusiasm, because at the end of the day, startups run on hope and you need to fill up the tank as much as you can, as often as you can. And then the second one is to be able to. Um, not just have hope, but be able to, to be creative and to, to think about the bigger picture.

Because when you're working on a startup and you're putting significant hours into it, it's very difficult sometimes to pull yourself away and think about the bigger picture. You get caught in kind of the day-to-day, and so sometimes you, you're sort of grinding away and you forget about kind of the bigger mission and you don't spend enough time thinking about the bigger picture.

So what I love. You know, whether it's a book or I, I got this sometimes by going to a conference, right? I would [00:44:00] go to a conference and it would take me out of the business for a day or two. And it wasn't so much, the content of the conference was great, it was just, it gave me a chance to be creative and think about the bigger picture and walk away with like a whole bunch of ideas.

So I think the process of, of pulling yourself outta the business out of that kind of minutia, I think is super important. And then, you know, filling the tank, uh, in terms of energy is really, really important. So, . Um, to answer your question, , I, the, one of those two books I remember, I read, you know, the Elon Musk biography and that just got me super fired up.

I don't know that and necessarily took away any ideas or, you know, I started waking up at 5:00 AM as a result of it or anything like that. I didn't change any, any sort of fundamental practices that I had, but, It got me fired up, it inspired me. So I think you need to find resources that inspire you to keep going.

And then secondly, you need to have, whether, whether it's a book or a process or a con, you know, whatever does it for you, you need to find a way to pull yourself outta the business. And one of the most helpful [00:45:00] resources that I started adopting in the, the last couple of years leading up to as a sale of the company is I joined, uh, a founder forum group where every month I would sit down with, Eight or nine other tech CEOs and it would be the same, same group that would meet every month.

And we would talk about the progress of our business, how, but not also the progress of our personal lives. And what was really cool is you had to spend the night before thinking about. What have I accomplished in the last 30 days? And by meeting with the same group every month, you're effectively having this audience that is going to hold you accountable to what you said you were gonna do.

And it makes you think about the bigger picture. And so that's just one example. You know, it could be that. Every Monday morning or every Friday afternoon, whe whenever it is that you go on an hour long walk. I just think that, uh, to answer your question, you just need to figure out how to satisfy those bigger objectives of how do I stay fired up?

How, how can I refill the tank? And two is how do I make sure [00:46:00] that I have a pr, I have a methodology that pulls me outta the business that forced him to me to think about the bigger.

Paul Shapiro: Interesting. Interesting. All right, well speaking of the bigger picture, Chris, are there any companies right now that don't exist that you wish existed?

Are there any suggestions that you have for listeners that maybe they ought to start Company X and that might even earn some of your an angel investment if they did so?

Chris Bryson: I still think, well, I've said this already, but we need more plant-based startups. I think we also need a lot more fermentation oriented startups, so I'd love to see startups that bring those two technologies together.

Obviously that will make a much for a much more complicated r and d roadmap, but I think we need to be ambitious at the same time, so companies that can combine plant-based ingredients with recombinant ingredients, pretty much taking the playbook from impossible foods. To, to create new kinds of meat that haven't been created before, whether that's seafood or it's land-based.

Um, I think there's still tremendous [00:47:00] opportunity. So it's not terribly, you know, novel relative to what we've already spoken about, but I think that is where the need, um, is most, most acute.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I, I certainly agree with you that I believe that, uh, fermentation both the type that you're talking about with acellular agriculture, but also just fermentation in the more conventional sense, um, can have a tremendous impact on, uh, changing foods to make them more suitable for the purposes that would actually do good in the world.

So I'm a big. I'm a big believer in the F word fermentation and I, I, uh, if you have a cool fermentation alt protein idea that you think that Chris would be interested in, now, you know, maybe there's $25,000 coming your way. If you have a really awesome business plan, who knows? Well, Listen, Chris, I am really grateful to you.

Congratulations on all your success. I'll be eager to hear about what happens with your new alt seafood company, and please keep us posted because maybe, uh, at that time when, you know, seven years from now you have a big exit because [00:48:00] who knows, like Bumblebee Seafood, uh, acquires you then, uh, we'll, we'll be talking again maybe even before then.

But thanks so much for all you're doing, Chris. It's really fantastic.

Chris Bryson: Thanks for having me, Paul. It's been a pleasure.

Paul Shapiro: Thanks for listening. We hope you found use in this episode. If so, don't keep it to yourself. Please leave us a five star rating on iTunes or wherever you get your podcast. And as always, we hope you will be in the business of doing good.