Hummus as a Force for Good: Joey Bergstein and the Sabra Story

Paul: [00:00:00] Joey, welcome to the Business for Good podcast. Paul, it's great to be here

Joey: with you. Thanks

Paul: for having me. Oh, it's my pleasure. I, I, I've been a, a cyber consumer for a very, very long time, and, interestingly, I know you are the c e o of seventh generation for many years as well, and I've also been a seventh generation consumer for many years, so I feel like our lives have intersected in a, a number of ways here, unbeknownst to you.

Fabulous.

Joey: On both fronts.

Paul: I, I, I actually have a theory, on, on hummus, which is, that. Hummus helps keep vegetarians vegetarian. And let me explain what I mean by that. So, there's, mo most people who become vegetarians stop being vegetarian. It's very sad. But, but everywhere you go, like now, no matter what, there's usually some hummus dish or some something that you can get on a menu that has hummus.

And so I think that it, it, it actually, is not only just a delicious food, but it's something that is really useful for making, plant-based eating more accessible. What do you think? Yeah, I

Joey: couldn't agree more. I mean, hummus is, an amazing, really simple [00:01:00] plant recipe. good for people, good for the world around us, and, and increasingly more and more accessible.

It's amazing how. Hummus has become part of the American diet over the last 20, 30 years. It's it's quite a different place.

Paul: Yo, let me ask you about that. Cuz you, you say that hummus is, is this very simple dish. So, why is it that sabra controls the vast majority of the, of the hummus market in the US then?

Like, if it's so simple, why don't you have competitors who are taking more, like what, what is it? Two-thirds of the hummus market is Sabra, is that right?

yeah, it's just, it's about, 40% of the, of the fondest market is. Oh, okay. Alright. But we're by far the, the largest player in the, in the marketplace.

Joey: Right? I think it's cuz we make amazing, delicious, beautifully plated food, so. Mm-hmm. The fact that we are serving up a, a, a simple recipe, but in a really delicious way and with a whole different variety, or variety of different ways that you can, you can enjoy it. with roaster red peppers on top, with peanuts on top, with spicy, combinations on top, I think.[00:02:00]

Nobody has innovated in the way that Sabra has over time to take a very simple recipe and find really interesting ways to, To serve it up to, to, to people in, across the, across the US and Canada.

Paul: I, I can't wait to talk about these innovations with you, joy, but I'll tell you, I, I buy the supremely spicy sabra that's like my, the one that, that is most commonly consumed in my household.

but I wanna talk about these innovations. This is actually relevant to something that we're gonna be talking about in a little bit. But before we get to that, I will say like, in addition to my theory, that. Hummus is good for the world because it, it's, it helps people eat more plant-based. it does also seem like to have some uniting factor, right?

Paul: Like I, I was in Israel not that long ago, and I went to this, Arab owned hummus shop and I was looking around and it was, I. Jews and Arabs enjoying hummus bowls and harmony right next to each other. nobody seemed to mind each other's presence. Everybody was just getting along, eating and enjoying hummus.

So, I, I don't know if you've thought about this, like, that hummus may be a uniting deeply force in the world. Deeply. Okay. Shared deeply [00:03:00] actually.

Joey: Okay. Tell, tell me about it. We, we describe our, our company purpose as uniting and delighting the world around planet positive food. And the uniting and delighting is really exactly what you described Paul.

Exactly. Case in point. Hummus is this amazing, dish, recipe that's been around for thousands of years, born in a part of the world that where there's tons of conflict and yet hummus crosses all these different cultures and people enjoy it together around the table. And we think it does have this unique ability to bring people together, and that's some of the good that we can bring into the world.

Mm-hmm. And then of course, we want to do that around. food is having a positive impact on the world around us. Yeah. Chickpeas are an incredibly generative crop and, we really wanna make sure that everything we do across all of our practices are, are making the world a better place.

Paul: So what do you mean by that?

You use this term planet positive food, like hummus is a planet, positive food. What are, there's no definition, I presume for that sounds like a, something that. I hadn't heard. Oh yeah, we made that term. Ok. Alright. Alright, so, so, so tell me what, what do you mean then you're using this made up [00:04:00] term, planet positive food.

What does planet positive mean to you? Sure. Well,

Joey: for us it's actually much bigger than just a sustainability agenda. Really. There's three big planks that we think about when we think about planet positive. So the first one's around nourishing the body and creating food that's. Good for you. that nourishes, people that is healthy, that's clean.

The second pillar is around Nourishing the Soul, which is all about creating an inclusive environment both inside the organization as well as with the suppliers that we work with, serving all the stakeholders that we deal with. And then the third pillar is around nourishing the ecosystems that we're part of, and ensuring that we are doing, we're managing our, our impact as effectively as we can, managing our waste, managing our carbon impact, managing, the impact of our packaging.

And so it's really those three pillars for us that make up what, what, what we call planet positive.

Paul: Got it. Okay. So you're arguing that not only is hummus a planet positive food, but that sabra itself, the company, is a planet positive [00:05:00] company aspires to be? Absolutely. Okay. Yeah. Got it. Aspires to be.

Okay. so just on the packaging alone, like what's special about it? I mean, I, I buy Sabra hummus, it looks like regular plastic packaging. Is there something unique about it to which you're referring here?

Joey: No, I think what I described is our agenda and, and how we wanna continue to ensure that we're improving the impact that we have on the world.

I mean, for sure, we put a lot of plastic into the world, as many companies do, so we're working hard to ensure that everything we do, is recyclable. We're we work hard to ensure that we've got recycled content in the packaging. That we're continuing to improve the amount of post-consumer recycled content that we have over time, and that we're working on ways to, to use in, substrates that, that aren't plastic and going beyond plastic.

So, as it relates to that, it's, it's, it really describes more of our agenda and the journey that we're on, rather than the place that we currently set.

Paul: Got it. Well, I will tell you, I, I, I, I, well, I would like to use less plastic in my life. I can tell you it is really convenient for me when I am at an airport, and the only plant-based option is a little cup [00:06:00] of Sabra hummus and pretzels.

And, that is like a must purchase for me, when I'm in the airport. So I, I'm very grateful for that. it's, it's something that, Makes it easier for me when I'm traveling as somebody who eats plant-based and, wants something satiating. it's not, not, not just like a $3 banana at the, at the, at the airport.

Joey: Yeah, absolutely. We hear that from a lot of people. They're really grateful for the ability to be able to, to eat so on the go and to have, sat satiating snack when you need one, but, Right. It was more filling than, than just regular

Paul: snacks. Yeah. Yeah, it is. So you, you mentioned to me a moment ago, Joey, that you're like talking about chickpeas and how you think they're a beneficial crop.

So what do you mean by that? Like what makes a chickpea better than anything else? that you would think for agricultural purposes here.

Joey: Well, chickpeas actually put a tremendous amount of nitrogen into the soil. So often we talk about regenerative agriculture, and having rotational crops.

Chickpeas are a great rotational crop in between other crops because they do prepare the earth better for what's to come after it.[00:07:00] so just the, the, the simple. Biology of the, of, of the, of the plant is, is quite generative.

Paul: Yeah. So, for folks who are not, as agriculturally initiated, like if you think about common crops that are grown, let's say like corn, it's not fixing nitrogen from the atmosphere into the soil, right?

It's, it's, it's using nitrogen. Whereas,if you want more nitrogen in the soil, which pretty much means you're gonna get a healthier, more fertile soil. putting nitrogen in the ground, which we typically do through synthetic nitrogen, but you can actually, use these so-called cover crops, like chick these to do that.

It does seem like a,a pretty good thing to, to do, but have you heard of, have you heard of a startup out actually near me in Davis, California? Joe, have you heard of the startup called New cer? No, I'm not familiar with them. It's pretty cool. I'll link to, a link. To their website in the show notes at business for good podcast.com.

but you know, a chickpea on a driveway basis is like 20% protein, which is not that bad, but it's also not that great. Yeah, and they're, they're basically using, selective [00:08:00] breeding techniques to create chickpeas. That they are cross breeding with pre domesticated chickpeas, like wild chickpeas. Hmm.

to increase protein content dramatically, like doubling or even more the protein content. Wow. So you could get a whole chickpea that instead of being 20% protein might be 40 to 50% protein. And in that case, if, if they are able to commercialize it, you're gonna have a hummus that,is gonna have double the protein, which I'm sure would be

favorable

Joey: for you.

Absolutely. Wow. Well, we'll have to check them out, Paul. That's a amazing,

Paul: yeah. Yeah, it's a pretty cool company. It's a father-daughter duo who's running it. The daughter is the c e o and the father, I think is, I think if my memory is correct as a, professor at uc Davis. but anyway, that's a, an a side interest of mine.

But again, we'll link to that on the show notes. Great page. but I do wanna ask you, about. How this all came to be like Sabra is dominant, as you mentioned, it's like 40% of the hummus market, but it wasn't the case that hummus was always so big. Right? Like in the United States, like in the Middle East, obviously people who've been eating it for a [00:09:00] long time, as

Joey: and for breakfast,

Paul: lunch and dinner.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, what I, I actually noticed when I was there, it's not a dip, it's a meal. Right? It's a meal. Yeah. Yeah.

Joey: They really. They literally eat it in the, the mornings. It, it's like grits. They would eat it before the people go out to the field is, to have something satiating that, that prepares 'em for the day.

So what

Paul: is Saber gonna make some attempt to, to, go toward that style of hummus consumption? Like, I know it's called the Saber Dipping Company, but is there an effort to, create a new type of cultural enjoyment of hummus that isn't just as a dip?

Joey: Well, we would love to see people enjoying Sabra.

All throughout the day, we think that, there's lots of times and occasions when saber's a really good fit. and, and in fact, I think one of the things that's made Sabi a poplar over time, and one of the, the really brilliant aspects of how it was, how it came to be in the first place was tapping into something that people really knew and understood, which was dipping.

and so Sabra has become part of a, a, A regular occasion of, when people are, [00:10:00] are, are dipping chips or pretzels or carrots or, or, or celery. Mm-hmm. but the biggest opportunity is for it to become a more regular part of the diet and to, to use it throughout the day at different times. So that's, that's what we're working on.

Paul: Yeah, I, I, I, I think I use it as a, I, I do use it as a dip, but more often I use it as like the base of a wrap, Mm-hmm. Where I'll put like this, like thick base of it onto a tortilla and then put everything else that I want inside of the tortilla. So, yeah, a lot of

Joey: people use it on flatbread as well.

it's great underneath grilled meats as, at the center of the plate as well. Lots of, lots of, it's an amazing, really versatile

Paul: food. Yeah. I was actually at, my friend Alex Shirazi and Anita Brox house recently, and they did, this Persian menu. Where, they did, they used impossible beef as like a, kabob, and then it was on top of hummus.

And so you had this like, really cool, plant-based impossible beef skewer, along with hummus. I don't remember the brand of hummus, so I don't think I know the brand of hummus. So, but it was good. It, it was really good. [00:11:00] But h how did this come to pass? Like, this is a, a company that

then Pepsi ended up purchasing, I think 50% stake in the company.

Is that right? yeah,

Joey: actually the, the company was founded almost well over 30 years ago. Mm-hmm. by a rabbi named Yahuda Pearl. Incredible entrepreneur has gone on to, to start up a number of other really successful businesses. he sold the business. half of the business to the Straus Group.

And then, and then eventually the other half was sold to, to, to PepsiCo. And so it's now a 50 50 joint venture between the two

Paul: companies. I, I remember them when that happened because it was a turning point in the cultural appreciation of hummus, like put, putting Pepsi, putting this into Pepsi distribution chains, made it.

Very widely available. It was kind of like when, Dean Foods bought WhiteWave and started making silk, na, nationally available. Like, before soy milk was something that you found at co-ops and, local, health food stores, and [00:12:00] now all of a sudden you could get it at Walmart. And that was this big transformation in the appreciation of soy milk, which led to an explosion in other types of plant-based milks as well.

and it seems to me like the Pepsi, purchase of half of Sabra was similar. do you agree with that assessment, Joey? Do you think that this was like this turning point where you saw hummus start really conquering America?

Joey: I think it started, it, it started growing even before that, pretty dramatically certainly.

Pepsi joining in as a joint venture partner, brought a, a lot of, investment and capability into the business. but the business actually runs quite independently of the two companies. runs very independently. So it wasn't as simple as putting it into a Pepsi distribution chain. It was actually built by the, the Sabra team, which is a function of the joint venture.

Joey: But that was certainly the moment in time when you started to see real growth as the distribution grew around the country. And I think it was, it was much more than just the distribution growth because lots of brands could get distribution. It was [00:13:00] really an amazing product that people really love When they tried it, you could see people smile, as they're, as they're trying it.

It was served in a way that a hummus really hadn't been served before with this transparent packaging. So you could see, the, the, this, this literally beautifully plated food. People often describe Sabra as being almost like it was plated by a chef. Hmm. with all of the, the, the, the big beautiful mound of flavor in the middle and the.

The garnishes that decorate all around the, the sides of, of many of our, our different Humes. And so the, the Pure Appetite appeal, that came along with it and the delightful. Flavors, I think were the things in addition to, or that made all of that distribution actually work Interesting. Cause it, it occupies, some pretty expensive space in refrigerators around the

Paul: country.

Yeah. I'm sure there are slotting fees that you're paying to, to receive that, but it does look really good. like many, I, I often joke like, I wasn't sure if it was the plural of hummus was Hummus's or hammi, but Fair question. Yeah, yeah, [00:14:00] yeah. Oh, anyway, just for fun, I'm gonna say hammi.

There are many hammi, brands that are just like a homogenous spread inside of a classic container, whereas these ones have, as you said, they have like this,either flavor or some other ingredient in the middle that you can kind of dip into and around, which is, which does make it kinda a more unique experience.

Absolut absolutely. In the, in the amount of care actually that goes into making sure that every cup is beautiful. That, that it has the, the right level of ripples, that it's the right color, that the, the flavoring's in the right place. I mean, it's, it's, it's quite an amazing process to see. Yeah.

Paul: Yeah. well, speaking of amazing processes, like one of the things that really struck me, and this was like a decade ago, it was back in 2013, the, wall Street Journal ran an article, it's called Hummus is Conquering America.

Mm-hmm. And, it, it basically credits sabras rise with the, shift toward enjoying more and more hummus as a part of like almost every occasion, whether it's the Super Bowl or whatever. And the key thing it talked [00:15:00] about though, in this story was. That in parallel with the rise of consumer demand for hummus, American farmers had to shift and they had to start putting crops in the ground of chickpeas, and those crops were previously.

Planted with tobacco. Mm-hmm. And so from 2013, from 2009 to 2013, there's this fourfold increase in the production of chickpeas and you saw a contraction of the amount of tobacco. And so it's kind of an interesting cultural point where demand for smoking is going down. So fewer acres are devoted to tobacco, and demand for hummus is going up.

So more and more acres are devoted to chickpeas. And it's an interesting, story because. A lot of the times the tobacco lobby was talking about how many jobs the tobacco industry creates and how was really important for the, for the economy to have all these farmers growing tobacco. And you thought, well, if people stop smoking, what will these farmers will be out of business.

And it turns out that. Actually, that's not true that they switched to growing chickpeas. So, what [00:16:00] do you know about this story, Joey, and, and, where are these chickpeas today being grown and, do you think that there is, some connection between decline in smoking and increase in hummus? I've never

Joey: really thought about the decline in smoking and the increase of hummus, but I think that that's a great relationship.

And, yeah, if that's, if that's the case, and I think the hummus is having a really positive impact on the world around us, on people's, personal health and wellbeing. For sure. There was a shift from, from tobacco farming into, into chickpea growing. as hummus grew, the demand for chickpeas grew at pace with it.

today we source most of our chickpeas outta the Pacific Northwest and, have, worked with a tremendous collaboration of different farmers and growers there. And, really proud of the work that, that they've been doing and, and in producing these incredible chickpeas for, for sovereign.

Paul: Yeah, I'm surprised that, the chickpeas are coming from the Pacific Northwest because I would've thought they would be coming from somewhere that has a more Middle Eastern type climate.

Right. If chickpeas are from the Middle East, which I presume they are, [00:17:00] I would've thought that they would grow more optimally somewhere that had a, a more Middle Eastern type, climate. So why is it like, would you know why the Pacific Northwest became the hub of chickpea growing in the US? Yeah, I

Joey: don't, I don't think that the, the, the climate conditions are actually great for growing chickpeas.

and so I'm not sure exactly the origins of why they started growing there, but chickpeas are growing in many places around the world, so not just restricted to the Mediterranean area. Again, it's a, it's a great d very, very versatile crop. Hmm.

Paul: Okay. Well, we'll look into this and see if there's some, if, if I can figure out why that is and if so, I'll include it in there.

I, I wanna get back to Joey, what you were talking about earlier with regard to innovation, saying, okay, well, we're doing the jalapeno, hummus, the supremely spicy hummus, the everything bagel hummus. Like, I, I, I got all these, I, I love 'em. I eat 'em. So at what point? Well, let me, lemme go back first, I'll, I'll prime you with the following question.

Paul: Mm-hmm. Alright. We were talking about soy milk earlier. So do you have a, an opinion, I mean, I know [00:18:00] this isn't your field, but do you have an opinion like, there's a fight in the dairy industry right? Over whether it should be called coconut milk or soy milk or almond milk or something else. Do you have any, do you have any opinions on this?

Whether it matters whether they should

Joey: be allowed to be

Paul: called milk. Yeah. Or, or soy milk, at least not milk, but just coconut milk, almond milk, soy milk, things

Joey: like that. I, I, honestly, I think as a, as a consumer, and we drink a lot of, mostly oat milk, but also soy milk. I, I think it's really helpful cuz it places, it places the product in the right occasion tells you how to use it.

and if you call it anything other than that, then it becomes just strange. And how do you. How do you use something you don't really know? I think, if you take it back to hummus, I think that was what was really smart about Moham was originally launched. It was put into this occasion when people were dipping chips into chip dip.

Joey: Yeah. And so you, you knew how to use it and it became very familiar very quickly. I think that the geniuses soy milk and oat milk and almond milk is, is exactly the, the same thing.

Paul: Yeah, I totally agree with you. you're not gonna find anyone more aligned with what you just said than, than [00:19:00] myself. And so that leads to the next question, which is,they're innovations, right?

Like, the people who are making hummus hundreds or thousands of years ago probably would not think, oh yeah, ho putting jalapeno in hummus is something that is traditional, right? But it's good. We like it, I buy it, we all like it. It's innovative, right? So, Why not black bean hummus? Why not edamame hummus?

Like, why the companies that make, edamame hummus Right. With no chickpeas at all. Does it matter? Like why is it not the same thing? Doesn't matter

Joey: to me. okay. I think that, I mean, what makes hummus unique is it's hummus literally means chickpeas, that it's the Arabic word for chickpeas.

Mm-hmm. So, is a chickpea black bean. It's not a black bean, but Right. it's literally the word for, for chickpeas. But, but chickpeas alone don't make hummus. I mean, hummus is a, is a. combination of chickpeas and tahini and some oil, some garlic, some spices. there's, there's a number of ingredients, not a lot, but there's, several ingredients that go into to making the hammus special.

and often it's the quality, well, it's always the quality of each of those ingredients that [00:20:00] makes it really special. The tahini in particular. and, and so, if you wanna make something similar using a different bean, And it tastes good. That's yeah, that's great. And let, let, let people judge for themselves.

Joey: People will buy what they like. If it tastes good, they'll buy it. If it doesn't taste good, they certainly

Paul: won't. Yeah. Well, I'm totally with you. I mean, I, I'm, I'm all for innovation, right? Like, I don't think we need to be trapped by what a definition used to be of something and so on. If people like a new product, that's great.

the reason I ask is because, as you are probably familiar, long before you became c e o of Sabra, Back in, I believe it was 2014, the company did take a position, and ask the FDA a, to create a standard of identity for hummus that would prohibit the use of the word hummus on anything that wasn't predominantly chickpeas.

Paul: I don't know whatever happened with that. It doesn't look like the FDA ever took action from what I can tell, but I dunno if you're familiar with that.

Joey: Yeah, and I'm familiar with that, and we've talked about it since I joined and we've come to the conclusion that, it would be interesting, but not necessarily all that meaningful.

yeah. So at the end of the day, let's, let's focus on making, [00:21:00] making food that people want to eat, that they wanna celebrate. And our, our view is that, Yeah, at the moment, doing that with the chickpea base is the best way to do it. If we can find a way to do it with other, other beans then and other legumes, we'd certainly be open to that.

Paul: Yeah. I, I, I also just don't think it matters like the, and I think the same about, I think the same about milk too. Like, silk is called silk. It's not called silk soy milk. Right. It's just silk. It's this thing. It kind of, it looks like milk. It's a soda next to a cow's milk. It's in the carton, but people have been drinking silk.

For a long time because they like it, right? They, they know that it's not cow's milk. There's no confusion as to whether it's cow's milk. When you buy oly, you're not confused as to whether you think it's cow's milk. And if somebody buys black bean hummus, I don't think they're gonna be surprised to learn that it doesn't have chickpeas.

So, I, I, I think that, if it tastes good, it's cost effective for people, it's healthy. Like, those are the things that I think are gonna matter to most consumers. Not really what it's called. Honestly.

Joey: I, I totally agree.

Paul: Yeah, I totally agree. Interesting. Okay, well I'm glad we got that outta the way.

That was like this elephant in the room. [00:22:00] Cause I remember when that happened, like a decade or so ago, and I was thinking it's just like the same thing with soy milk. But anyway, I I, I do want to ask you, Joey, before we move on to our final questions that we ask each guest, you've written before that you have a personal mission statement.

And so, not a lot of people do this, but you have your own. Personal mission statement, which you've said, and I'm quoting you to spark an amazing difference in the world. So tell me about that. Like you want to spark an amazing difference in the world. It sounds nice, but what does that actually mean?

Like what is the difference that you're trying to make in the world? Like if you cease to exist, what would be worse off in the world because you're not fulfilling that mission anymore.

Joey: Yeah, it's Great, great question. So for me, there's, there's three components of that statement. so sparking, I love to work with people and building off of each, each, each person's ideas, taking an idea and, and building it into something that's, that's, that's bigger, better, greater, for me.

the, the, the way that we work together is one of the most important things, an amazing difference. I often talk about being a force for [00:23:00] good, and I really see the opportunity with business that business should be a force for good in the world. and I love taking on big challenges and very excited about taking a, a business as a lot of potential and helping it accelerate and grow into something that, that's even bigger, unlocking greater and greater potential.

Joey: And then the in the world piece is just really ensuring that the things that we're doing matter and that I'm having an impact in the world. And so, my, my time at Seventh Generation was a great example of that. I think we were creating great products that were better for the world around us. and my time at Sabra was, was really motivated.

I was, I was excited about coming to Sabra for a few reasons. I think as a, as a, as a country, as a society, we're facing a combination of crises, a health crisis. we see more and more obesity in the world. we have a climate crisis in front of us as a, as a broad global society, and we need more great plant-based options.

and I think hummus plays in a really interesting space. Also at a time where people are [00:24:00] eating fewer three square meals a day or snacky more often and are interested in Mediterranean foods. Sabra hummus sits right in the middle of all those different things, and I think there's just a, it's this incredible.

Joey: Business with an opportunity to be so much more than it has become already. It's already this great iconic brand and a great opportunity to, to become even greater than that.

Paul: Yeah. well, I can assure you, I'm one of those people who definitely does not just eat three times a day. there's like, I'm eating like every hour on the hour a lot of the times.

so hummus becomes important for me and it's especially important because I shop a lot of grocery outlet. I'm sure you're familiar with them. Mm-hmm. Or maybe you're not. you guys have your product there a lot. So it's, it's a deeply discounted grocery chain. often they're selling products that are like nearing expiration and so on.

so I will find saber there for much, much less than it is, on sale for at, at like, other conventional grocery stores. So, that enables me to increase my hummus consumption quite dramatically, and I appreciate that. I'm glad we can help. Yeah. Okay. so, let me ask you [00:25:00] then, Joey, like, if, if you think about the time that you've had, being an executive at these ecologically minded companies, whether it's Sabra or Seventh Generation like you have been running, I don't know what, what's the, what, what was the revenue, the annual revenue for Seventh Generation when you departed?

well we don't publish it cuz it was ah, okay. It's part of the, the broader Unilever universe, but it was, substantially bigger than it was when we sold the business to, to Unilever and, and, substantially bigger than when I joined.

Paul: Got it. And are you willing to disclose In and hundreds of millions.

Okay. In the hundreds, millions. Yeah. Hundreds of millions. And Sabri presume is even bigger than that?

yes. Yeah. Well, in, in a similar, in a, in a similar

place.

Paul: Okay. so, you've been the c e o of two companies that both have, hundreds of millions of dollars in of revenue. Presumably you've learned a thing or two.

since doing this, you might have relied on some resources that you thought were useful, whether it was speeches, you heard, books, you read something that was actually useful. So is there any resource, Joey, that's been useful for you in your time as the captain of these two very large,[00:26:00] socially conscious companies, ships that you would recommend for other people who want to also, go on a journey similar to yours?

I, I always

Joey: love, love things that just get me to think differently, and it can come from really anywhere. one of the, the podcasts I listen to, so I, I, I, I love to run. I try to get out five days a week as much as I can. to do a run. And, and during that time I listened to podcasts. I've listened to your podcast.

Paul: I, I'm, I'm, I'm sure you've religiously listened to business for Good, but in addition, what else do you listen to?

I also, aside from the news, I listened to, to Malcolm Gladwell's Revisionist History podcast, and I think it's absolutely unbelievable how he'll take something that you never think about and get you to think about a completely different life.

Joey: And, I, I think any, any resources out there that, that, or any, stimulus that get you to think differently about things that you may come across every day, is a, is a great thing to happen because it just inspires you to think differently about the, the issues that in front of you. Very cool.

Paul: Well, we'll link to, Malcolm Gladwell's [00:27:00] podcast Revisionist History, which I too have listened to and enjoyed, at the show notes that they're this episode at Business for Good podcast.com. And that brings me to the final question here, Joey. So, you've spent, your career trying to use business, as you said, for a force of good.

if there is some idea that you wish somebody else would start, like you've been the c e o of these two companies that you didn't start, but that you had to great growth. but is there something that you wish somebody else would start. Some problem that you wish somebody else would start a company to solve that you think would make the world a better

Joey: place?

Yeah. I, I, I think as a society we've got a real problem with plastic packaging. and the, the, the issue is this plastics actually serves a, some, some really, it, it's a very, it's very functional. It serves a lot of really important uses. We don't have enough infrastructure in this country to be able to take plastic into.

Process it to recycle it so that it can be reused and, and really become a productive part of a circular economy. I would love for somebody to be able to figure out how do we make much more [00:28:00] productive use of, of the plastic that's in the world so it can be properly processed and not end up in the, end up in the, the landfill.

I think that would be an incredible contribution. Ultimately, it'd be great if we could, if we could transition away from plastic, and find incredible materials that have the same. Property is a plastic. So that would be my, the biggest thing on my wishlist. But until we get to that, the, I think the much more manageable, ask is to find some way to just to make this world a, a more circular world.

Paul: Yeah, well, we, we've done a number of episodes on alternative plastics, in including, biodegradable plastics and, and, and other things. So I'll link to some of those in the show notes here, so people wanna go back and listen to those. I will note, it's interesting because obviously it'd be great to keep plastic out of landfills.

however, the alternative for a lot of it, like nearly no plastic gets recycled. It's like less than, I think, less than 10% of plastic gets recycled. And even most of the plastic that you put into your recycling bin doesn't get recycled cuz it's not economical to recycle it. And, with China no longer taking [00:29:00] our plastic waste, we, started sending it to other Asian countries, which we were paying to take it.

Paul: And it just ended up getting dumped in the ocean basically. And so there is an argument that the landfill was actually a preferable place. For plastic packaging, because you're essentially sequestering carbon in the landfill rather than putting, the plastic into the ocean. and so until we can find something that's actually economical to do with used plastic, like I, I, I, I, I'm an ardent environmentalist, but I fear that, am I doing the right thing by putting it into the recycling bin?

I'm not sure. It feels like almost like sacrilegious to put in the trashcan. but I'm not sure what the right thing to do is. Well, that's why I'm saying

Joey: that if we can actually get it out of the bin, we've trained so many people to put 'em into the bins, but they're just not making it into a recycling facility.

So if we could, if we could fix that infrastructure and get them into the recycling facilities, that would make a huge difference.

Paul: Yeah, yeah. Very cool. We also did an episode with a, a cool company called,a m p Robotics, which is basically doing robotics for recycling facilities so that it dramatically reduces the [00:30:00] cost to, to recycle the plastic.

So rather than having,humans who are manually picking up every oil piece of plastic, which is extremely, horrible for those workers and bad for cost, they have robots doing it like three times faster, which really cuts down on the cost to make it more economical to actually recycle the plastic.

But anyway, it's really great to talk with you, Joey. Thanks so much. You have made a very consequential difference in my life through the two companies that you have been at the helm of, and I really appreciate that. And, I'll be rooting for your success, every time I take a bite of Saber Hamas here.

So thank you. Thanks

Joey: Paul. It was great to be with you.