Is Alt-Protein a National Security Issue? Rep. Ro Khanna Thinks So

Paul Shapiro: [00:00:00] Welcome to the business for good podcast to show where we spotlight companies, making money by making the world a better place. I'm your host, Paul Shapiro. And if you share a passion for using commerce to solve many of the world's most pressing problems, then this is the show for you. Hello friends and welcome to episode 89 of the business for good podcast.

I hope you got a lot out of the last episode about family planning in Nigeria and as promised we are soon going to release an episode on family planning in the United States too. So get ready not to ruin the surprise, but we won't even be talking with a doctor who get this. Vasectomies himself. Yep. You heard that, right.

This dude is such an evangelical for showing how simple and easy vasectomies are to get that he performed his own. So stay tuned for episode number 90, by the way, here is my favorite joke that I've heard since the last episode, why don't zombies is eat brains with their fingers. Because they saved the fingers for last of course.

Okay. For [00:01:00] episode 89, here, we have got a riveting conversation with a member of Congress who thinks that fostering an alternative protein industry in the United States is important both for helping the environment and for protecting American national security. We are already importing much of our queen energy technology from Asia, but will we soon be importing our queen protein from other parts of the world?

Congressman Roe Kana, a Democrat from California representing Silicon valley does not want that to happen. He has not only called on the us department of agriculture to invest in alt protein. He's recently introduced to bill and Congress calling on the director of national intelligence to submit an intelligence report on the effects of.

Increased production and consumption of alternative proteins on American national security, the bill even calls for the DNI to explore weather. And to what extent, progress in the production of consumption of alt proteins made by foreign countries like China constitutes a competitive threat to American economic interests.

And we have got Congressman Conna [00:02:00] right here on the business for good podcast. All about this along with other matters of entrepreneurial interest for background conno was actually a Stanford economics lecturer before becoming a member of Congress in 2017. He is a progressive who co-chaired Bernie Sanders, 2020 presidential campaign, but he is viewed as a pragmatist who routinely works with Republicans, whether Penn joint op-eds with Senator randpa or routinely going on the most conserv.

Talk shows on the right. Some experts even think that KA could appeal both to the left and to some Trump supporters. In fact, despite only joining Congress five years ago, Kana is regularly discussed both as a potential successor to Senator Diane Feinstein. If she chooses not to run for reelection in 2024, and even as a serious contender for the democratic presidential nominat.

If Joe Biden decides not to run for reelection in 2024, Politico has devoted a number of stories to the Congressman, including one entitled the California Congressman who could become president of the United States. [00:03:00] And another about all of the members of the Bernie Sanders camp who are urging RO Conna to run in 2024, if Biden O X not to run himself, will representative Kana one day be Senator Kana, or even president KA.

Only time will tell, but for now he is waging an effort to get alt protein on the national security radar. I'll now let representative, Rocana tell you all about that himself. Congressman Kana. Welcome to the business for good podcast. Thank you for having me on. Yeah, it's really great to be talking with you.

I am intrigued cuz not only are you the Congressman representing Silicon valley. But you are an economist by your profession prior to being in Congress. In fact, an economics professor and you refer to yourself as a progressive capitalist. So Congressman what does that mean? What's a progressive capitalist in, in a world where so many folks view that C word as like this dirty word.

What is it that you mean by a progressive capital?

Rep. Ro Khanna: Well just make sure the record is clear. I was a lecturer, not a [00:04:00] professor. I don't wanna give myself a promotion.

Paul Shapiro: OK. You, you were, you're a, a professor of economics. I dunno if that makes you an economist, but I get it. All right. Thank you.

Lecturer

Rep. Ro Khanna: in a professor applies. Tenure, which, which most people won't care about, but in the academy, they take that stuff really seriously. So I not engaged in title inflation. I, I will,

Paul Shapiro: I will attract the inflation here. But anyway, so tell us that's fine. Progressive capitalist. What, what does that mean?

Rep. Ro Khanna: A progressive capital is, as I see it, it means someone who believes in innovation, someone who believes in entrepreneurship, someone who believes that markets are good because they have foster creativity and production and human ingenuity. But then we wanna make sure everyone has a, a, a shot at success.

And that means having healthcare for everyone, education for everyone a livable wage for. Being able to have a home if you are working. And so we need a capitalism that actually means that everyone [00:05:00] participates

Paul Shapiro: and succeeds. And so how does that differ from what other people might think of as just regular old capitalism then?

Rep. Ro Khanna: Well, the regular old capitalism, as, as we've been practicing it over the last 40 years has had all this wealth pile up in my district, $11 trillion of market cap. Has had jobs massively, offshore millions and millions of them to China and Mexico communities destroyed the state basically stood by as, as people's means of living was taken from them.

It, it has allowed for young people to go into debt, thousands of dollars, totally in contradiction to the moral act that was supposed to for provide free education with land grant universities back in 1862, and it was free for almost a hundred years in this country. It has meant a state that has watched as healthcare costs has have risen to 23% of GDP and families are facing a crushing tax from private health insurance of almost $12,000 a year.

So it has basically meant a market system that [00:06:00] has had no state intervention that has had no concern for jobs. No concern for healthcare costs. No very little concern for education. And has left. I would argue the majority of Americans out.

Paul Shapiro: So it, it is interesting that, you know, you, you describe the trillions of dollars that have been amassed in the district that you represent as somehow of a problem.

Because most of the time, you know, a Congress person is not gonna complain that their, their own district residents are becoming too wealthy. And you have really developed Congressman a national platform in a very short amount of time. You've you've been in Congress. For only about five years or so.

And you already were the co-chair of the Bernie Sanders campaign. You've been on a, a very high profile journey here, including even having Politico saying that they think that you are, if Biden doesn't run or if for president or maybe a fine stain doesn't run for a Senate in 2024, that they think that you would be a.

A natural progressive candidate for either statewide or even national office here. So obviously I know [00:07:00] that you are focused on serving your own district and being a, a member of the house of representatives, but as you continue to build a national profile here, what is it that you're trying to accomplish?

Like, what is the main reason that you are in DC working on public policy issues?

Rep. Ro Khanna: I want the reindustrialization of America. I want us to be creating good paying jobs, developing here again, innovating making things leading, not letting China lead. I fear that we've had too much production go offshore.

I fear that so many communities have been de destroyed with deindustrialization. In the modern economy and the jobs of technology and the 25 million digital jobs aren't available to many young people or, or folks in those communities, we need to create both production across America. Again, we need to bring the opportunities for the digital economy.

To rural America and places left out. That doesn't mean it's a zero sum game. My district has had an increase in 40% of net worth over the last two years. It makes sense with [00:08:00] everyone going online and technology, you've had the increasing digitization of the economy. I'm very bullish on my district in the next, next 20 years, as you have even more digitization, what I wanna make sure though, is that the opportunities aren't aren't limited to a few geograph.

And that there's really a mission, a call to re industrialize America and to produce new value in

Paul Shapiro: this country. So let's talk about something specific then on this. So you mentioned we don't wanna lose out to China. Well, if you think about our solar panels, our lithium ion batteries, like those are often coming from Asia now, and it's hard for us to catch up in the queen energy race.

And that is the direct. Of Chinese of the Chinese government prioritizing the exploration and innovation in queen energy. Whereas the us government seems to have been more focused on subsidizing fossil fuels than on advancing queen energy. For some time. Now you've introduced a new bill. In Congress that would try to avoid the same thing happening, not in the energy space, but in the queen protein [00:09:00] space.

And I wanna talk about that. It's called the security of the economy, climate and other us interests with recent and existing food alternatives or the easier to say the secure food act. And this bill would require the director of national intelligence basically to submit a. On the effects of increased protein production and consumption from the alternative protein, meaning animal free protein and that impacts and how it impacts national security in the United States, the report would address plant-based and cultivated meats impact on food security, water supplies, climate impacts, public health, the ag sector, and more and you also are looking for a detailed explanation.

From the DNI about what progress, the production of alternative proteins made by foreign countries like China constitutes a competitive threat to America's national interest. So, you know, oftentimes we hear about animal free protein technology as being very good for climate. Very good for other environmental purposes or even public health.

But you hear less about it as a national security issue. So why is it that your bill isn't asking the department of agriculture or the food and drug [00:10:00] administration, but rather the act, the national. Of intelligence to look into this.

Rep. Ro Khanna: Appreciate it. Well, we wanna make sure we're leading in alternative proteins.

All alternative proteins means is that in developing new food, that there are now synthetic ways of doing it that are both good for the climate. And it's good for nutrition and good for jobs job. And it doesn't displace in any way. The FA the family farmer, because family farmer is making very cultivated types of meats.

And that is not something currently that you can do through the alternative protein process. Really the alternative proteins for mass production. What. A lot of these companies do to make a, a beef burger, for example, as opposed to a ribeye steak. And the question is how do we do that? In a way that is creating food security.

How do we do that? In a way that is nutritious, how do we do that? In a way that is gonna create jobs in the United

Paul Shapiro: States. Sure. So let's talk about the national security implications [00:11:00] of this. So as I mentioned, China is leading in things like solar panels, a Theo ion batteries. And so on Xi chain, just put out a new plan for China's agricultural vision for the next five years, which relies heavily on animal free protein technologies here in the United States.

However we seem to be not really. Taking a leadership role, private industry is especially funded by investors who live in your district. But it doesn't seem like the us government has done that much on this. So places like the Netherlands they're spending billions of euros to help farmers to raise fewer animals for environmental purposes, they are putting tens of millions of euros into.

Consortiums for studying cultivated animal meat. So growing real meat without animals China is doing this as well. And in the us, there's only been a real pitance of grants here. You see, for example, U S D a and the national science foundation giving single digit millions. To universities like UC Davis and Tufts.

But you don't see a, a, a real strong embrace here. So [00:12:00] I realize that your bill is not asking for any appropriated funds for these purposes, that you're asking the, the DNI to explore what this means for national security. What do you think, what do you think it'll take to have agricultural research hours going into animal free protein research here in the United States?

Rep. Ro Khanna: I think it's doable. And the reason it's doable is because this could actually be a new opportunity for a lot of farmers. I mean, farmers could be growing things that then ultimately lead to new food production. I mean, the the, the material that we're gonna. For alternative proteins could be grown and provided by farmers.

So we have to make sure that this program is seen as a positive for farmers. And then it could definitely get funding if it's seen as good for job creation. Good for farmers. Good for nutrition. Good for food security. It seems an appropriate place for agriculture to, to support

Paul Shapiro: it.

So farmers will definitely be growing. The crops that are fed into this system, right? So if you buy a beyond burger today, you're still buying farmed [00:13:00] products, right? They're they're coming from peas or impossible foods uses soybeans as their basis. So, you know, these are still farmed products, whether peas or soy, and even in cultivated meat, you still are.

Feeding your cells farmed products. They're still agricultural products, but there probably would be some dislocation in the supply chain, right? Like if people were to switch to more plant-based options or in the future to cultivated meat, it would mean that, you know, we would have fewer people slaughtering animals as an example.

And so just in the same way that, you know, Netflix creates a lot of jobs, but at the expense of blockbuster video jobs or digital film creates lots of jobs, but at the expense of Kodak jobs what is your view on how we can help those who are today involved in the raising and slaughtering of animals who might be dislocated from these types of technologies in the same way that Kodaks.

Failure to embrace digital film or, or Blockbuster's failure to go to DVD mail in and then eventually to streaming. What do you think we can do to help those to transition to 21st century jobs that don't [00:14:00] involve the raising and slaughtering of animals?

Rep. Ro Khanna: Well, I don't think there is gonna be dislocation anytime soon.

I think this idea that they're gonna replace ranchers or replace farmers is just wrong because so much of that meat is meat that is cultivated and, and, and is not just a mess mess produced. And also there's a huge global market. That is, that is there. So it, it's not gonna cut. To the us market.

So I, I really think that we ought to be focused on how this is supporting the the, the agricultural community and how it can be a wind for farmers and ranchers and support the, the research in ways that can be additive. I view this as a very different thing than the situation.

Fossil fuels where mm-hmm you actually do have a transition and you have to move off of coal here. I, I think that there, no one is talking about disrupting in my view, the, the rancher or the, or the

Paul Shapiro: family farmer. Sure. So there's definitely a distinction that people make between like factory farms, [00:15:00] of course, which you're referring to as these like mass industrialized farms, where you have oftentimes millions of animals confined in very small spaces and ranchers and other folks who raise animals.

In ways that would be more recognizable to most Americans as farming. So are you suggesting that you think neither one of these would be competing with the animal free proteins or only that the that the more extensive family farms would be not competing here? Well, the

Rep. Ro Khanna: more extensive family farms would not be competing to the extent that the CAFOs, I mean, I think we ought to have a moratorium on CAFOs anyway, mm-hmm, given.

Climate disasters, given the runoff environmentally, given how much they're hurting communities. So the extent that they're in some ways allowing CAFOs to be reformed, I think that's a good thing. Mm-hmm is a good thing for the family farms. It's a good thing for these states where CAFOs have huge environmental consequences, right?

I, I think though it's the in industry is still in such an influence stage. The idea that they're gonna be even. Against CAFOs is so far off. Now, maybe there'll be some [00:16:00] transformation. I think right now the point. How do we research this so that this industry is something in the

Paul Shapiro: United States? Yes. Yeah, for sure.

I know you know, countries like Israel and Singapore are really racing fast. We already mentioned China, but they're really racing fast to try to bring about their plant based and their other types of animal free protein industries. Here in the us though, the aspiration of those in these industries is to compete against KFA.

So if you look at, for example, impossible foods, you know, their, their goal is to, you know, end CAFOs, basically not just a moratorium, but to really end KFA. And they point out that raising animals in these factory farms represents. About 14% of all greenhouse gas emissions globally, according to the United nations, which is more than all of the planes, trains, and boats and other forms of transportation combined.

And so it's also raising animals for food is the number one cause of deforestation in the world. The Washington post just had a really excellent, a one story on this, about how the destruction of the Amazon rainforest is happening [00:17:00] primarily to produce. That this is a, a, the number one cause of deforestation in the Amazon is beef production.

And how the answer to this could be that, you know, maybe people will eat less beef, but it could also be that people will just enjoy more plant-based beef. And so certainly so far there doesn't seem to have been much cannibalization from the plant-based side into the KFO side, but do you think it's.

That in the next five or 10 years of that might actually start to happen, that we would have fewer CAFOs and more plant-based production right here in the United States.

Rep. Ro Khanna: The I think that

absolutely we could see plant-based production that helps put pressure on CAFOs, and that would be a good thing. That is one of the promises of. Alternate proteins that both it will provide a secure food supply that it would create a, a taste of course in cul in certain proteins that are based that are exactly the same chemical compound as as the meat itself.

That it would taste the same and that it would be [00:18:00] good for the climate because you're not gonna have these K flows producing all of this emission mm-hmm and also all of the environmental consequences. So that is a promising reform that the industry could bring. Yeah.

Paul Shapiro: So you, so first, let me ask you, do you eat these products?

Do you enjoy plant-based meats or do you, have you ever had. ,

Rep. Ro Khanna: you know, I've had them I wouldn't say that I'm a regular in eating them in any way. Mm-hmm but I, I have had them.

Paul Shapiro: Okay, cool. So, you know, look Congressman you are somebody who isn't afraid to, you know, cross the aisle, you have authored op-eds with Republicans, like.

And Paul, you regularly go on Fox and other conservative shows despite being a progressive Democrat yourself. So let me ask you, why do you think more Republicans and other free marketers don't appear to be as enthusiastic at least today on this as a potential climate solution? So, if you look at the, you know, they don't want to have, let's say a carbon tax but if we could have private market innovation to [00:19:00] create alternatives that people really want to eat that are economic and that could be better for the planet, then KFO based meat in other animal products.

Why is it that we don't see more on the right embracing this type of food tech innovation? As a potential solution either to climate or even just for national security purposes, like your new bill is is suggesting.

Rep. Ro Khanna: It's new. And it, it it's concerning to people who don't understand it. I'm sure there's some concern.

Is it gonna really hurt family farmers, which it won't? What does this mean in terms of the quality of the, of the type of meat? Is it gonna hurt traditional industry? So those are all reasons that people are for the status quo. It's always easy to default to the status quo change is always.

But I think when people study this and they see that this is actually going to empower farmers, this is actually going to create jobs. This is actually going to make America more competitive. Then they, they will be open to this and the extraordinary climate

Paul Shapiro: impact. [00:20:00] Are there any Republicans who you think of who who you can think of right now by name, who you think would be particularly interested in supporting your new legislation in the house?

Rep. Ro Khanna: You know, not by name but we're gonna try to circulate it and, and see if we can get some of the, the folks who. Care about climate. There are several Republicans in the climate caucus mm-hmm to, to sign up.

Paul Shapiro: Do you think there's an opportunity for this instead of just getting a, a free standing vote on the house floor, just to be attached to some other vehicle that might be moving?

Anyway.

Rep. Ro Khanna: I think we still have a lot of work to do. I think we have to build up co-sponsors we have to get more Republicans. We have to build a coalition to support this. And the work is just beginning. So I wouldn't say that this is gonna move anytime soon. I don't wanna be misleading. But it's a marker that can then build support and the administration can look at it to do some of these things on their own mm-hmm

Paul Shapiro: sure.

Okay. Well speaking of things that take a long time and that need a lot of work, I do wanna just point out, you know, you first ran for Congress back [00:21:00] in 2014 unsuccessful, you came close but you lost and there was something in you that said you. I'm just gonna get back up and try again. And there's a lot of people who fit this same description.

For example, the first time president Obama ran for Congress, he lost also. And you know, there's sometimes when people just become resilient and they get back up after they failed and they decide to get back in the ring and keep moving. So what was it for you? Like after losing, you know, it's a very public failure to lose a, a public race for Congress that made you think, you know, I'm gonna go back and do this again.

The following session, the following cycle in 2016, when you finally won. Well, you know, I

lost

Rep. Ro Khanna: twice. I ran the first time as protest campaign against the Iraq war. And got maybe 19% of the vote. What? That was something I'm so proud of for standing up in 2003 against the Warner rock is the Patriot act and I didn't run.

And then for 10 years I really was proud of standing up for those principles but then was serving and doing things in many other capacities. Then 10 years later, I said, [00:22:00] okay, let me give this a try. Because there was a seat in SIL valley, the heart of te. I said technology is gonna change the world.

We need someone from this area who understands it and can understand those who been left out and figure out how we bridge the divide. I ran against a good man. Mike con is a decent person. He had good values, but he just was not really in touch with the changing nature of technology and understanding all of that Silicon valley represe.

And I lost my first race, 52 to 48, and I probably didn't have sufficient at the time. Deep roots in the community, the way my conduct did it forced me to really go very deep in the community. Knock on thousands of doors, meet people at farmers' markets meet with coffees, with PTA leaders at parents.

It made me a better member of Congress. So I often think that. Loss is instructive though. It it's easy to say, say that

Paul Shapiro: in the moment. Yeah. So you say that it made you a better member of Congress. I presume if you could go back and, and do it over though, you would not choose the same order that you would choose to win the first time.[00:23:00]

Rep. Ro Khanna: You know, actually, no, because I, I genuinely think had I gotten into Congress in 2014, I'm not sure I would've been is similar as aware of the economic hardships. So those who been left out of the anger of the frustration that exists. And I may have been too much a techno optimist though. I still retain.

But, you know, obviously I would've it's easy to say if you, if you know, you're gonna win in 2016, it would've been the better path. The problem is if I had won in 16, I probably would've. The end of any political ambition. So I'm not sure I would roll the dice on a run like that. right. But, you know, I do think I'm a significantly better public servant having gotten to Congress in

Paul Shapiro: 16, unfortunately.

Yeah. You know, it's interesting. You look at so many people who have. Failed and gotten back up. I, I mentioned that Obama lost his first race for Congress, obviously. Abraham Lincoln lost in 1858 when he ran for Senate against Steven Douglas even bill Quentin lost none of his statewide races in Arkansas.

Prior to O [00:24:00] ultimately of course, becoming president. And there do seem to be some lessons here for entrepreneurs. A lot of times entrepreneurs start businesses and fail or their businesses struggle. And so if you had a piece of. For people who are thinking about starting a company to try to do something good in the world.

And you're looking at the vast expertise that you have about Silicon valley funded startups. What advice would you offer to people thinking about starting their own company to try to solve some climate or environment, or maybe some other social issue that they wanna solve with technology?

Rep. Ro Khanna: Well, I think it'd be very pretentious for me to offer advice to a a business entrepreneur. Given a lot of my work has been in politics and public policy, but I would say one of my favorite quotes is Nelson Mandela's that it always seems impossible until it is done. And the point is that I think sometimes the people who are the most destructive are people often the closest to.

Who may doubt or not believe what we're capable of doing. [00:25:00] And they don't mean it with bad intention. It's just so ingrained, ingrained in their own system and frame of reference. And so I would say you have to have a healthy balance by tuning out. A lot of people are naysayers or you just won't have the strength and vision to continue and be resilient while having enough people on there to.

Most of us that we couldn't play in the NBA. And so to keep our dreams tethered, to some sense, a reality. And that balance between having sufficient skeptics, but not having too many naysayers, I think are, is a art, not a science, but it's critical for anyone who's trying to do something unconventional

Paul Shapiro: mm-hmm

Okay. Nice. And then on the flip side of that, let's say you were talking to somebody who is thinking about starting an alternative protein. And they're being weirded right now by China, by Israel, by Singapore. And they're thinking about starting it in the United States, what message would you have to them?

Why should that entrepreneur think about [00:26:00] starting an alternative protein company here in the us, rather than any of these other countries that are seeking to get them to start over there? We're

Rep. Ro Khanna: still the best place to invest. We're still the best place to engage in science. I mean, not to be facetious, but I mean, Gigi pink could wake up tomorrow and do to you what he did to Jack ma, just to cut your company in half, take over half your company, tell you not to appear.

I don't know many people in the United States or around the world who are clamoring to get into China. I do know a lot of people around the world who still wanna come to the United States. There's a reason for. We're still the freest place in terms of innovation and entrepreneurship. We still have some of the greatest science and technology research.

We have the greatest entrepreneurial ecosystem I would argue, ever known to humankind. Are they problems with our democracy? Of course, are they problems of. Inclusion of course. But I don't, I don't think it's a wise bet to go

Paul Shapiro: somewhere else. Okay. And you Congressman referred to yourself as a techno optimist and I, I, I certainly put myself in that camp as well.

Are there [00:27:00] any are there any business ideas out there that you wish that somebody would solve something let's say on environment or anything else that nobody yet. Has cracked that nut that you think maybe somebody's listening to this podcast and they're thinking about what type of problem they want to solve with some new technological innovation.

What do you hope that they solve?

Rep. Ro Khanna: You know, there's so many out there. I I'm just amazed by all the entrepreneurship and climate. I was talking to someone a few days ago, who has a company that is taking some of the biomass that folds from, from plants when they decay and making sure the carbon of that will be put in the ground and not go back up out in the air.

Seen companies that are tackling fusion and making progress on it. I've seen companies that are tackling, making clean steel, making clean batteries, making thicker steel for offshore wind companies that are, of course in the alternate protein space that are figuring out how to do more of the solar manufacturing at scale, you know, at, at costs lowering battery costs and making batteries last longer, making batteries [00:28:00] cleaner.

When you look at who's really leading on climate. It's certainly not the politicians. It's the scientists and technologists and entrepreneurs. And that to me is a, a cause of great optimism. Sure.

Paul Shapiro: I appreciate that. So finally then Congress move, before we adjourn, you have been on a wild ride. You've done a lot.

You've run for office. Many times. You may run for office many more times in the future for people who look at your story and they admire your resilience, they admire that you got back up off, off the ground when you fell and you kept going forward. Have there been any resources that have been useful for you that you would recommend whether books or speeches or anything else that you would suggest for somebody who wants to make a positive difference in the world that you think, Hey, this was good for me.

Check it out too.

Rep. Ro Khanna: I would say, have an inner circle of believers who, people who will be there for you when you fail people who would be there for you when you are down for me. It's been my brother, my wife, my mother, my, some of my close friends. And it's so important because there are very few people.

Maybe there are some. [00:29:00] Who don't doubt themselves, who don't give up and really it's a group of people around you, your support system that keeps someone going. And so for me, I think more important than the experts or or anything else is to have people really who can sustain you through the tough times in life.

And that's probably prob probably applicable, not just in political ambition or business ambition, but. The difficulty that life itself deals

Paul Shapiro: indeed. Well wise words to bring us out here, Congressman Broka thanks so much for your time. Good luck with everything. And I hope that your new bill, the secure food act is going to become law.

And we'll see a report from the director of national intelligence on how animal free proteins can help secure our country's future in a better way. So appreciate all that you're doing. And we'll be rooting for your continued success.

Rep. Ro Khanna: Thank you so much. Thank you for having me on a great honor and pleasure.

Paul Shapiro: Thanks for listening. We hope you found use in this episode. If so, don't keep it to yourself. Please leave us a five star rating on iTunes or [00:30:00] wherever you get your podcast. And as always, we hope you will be in the, of doing good.