The Billionaire Out to End Factory Farming

Jim Mellon: [00:00:00] These industries can change extremely quickly, and I'm super bullish that it's gonna happen.

Paul Shapiro: Welcome to the Business for Good podcast to show where we spotlight companies making money by making the world a better place. I'm your host, Paul Shapiro, and if you share a passion for using commerce to solve many of the world's most pressing problems, then this is the show for.

Welcome friends to episode 65 of the Business for Good Podcast. How often have you wished that more billionaires use their money to do good in the world? Well, you are in luck because in this episode we talk with British billionaire Jim Mellon. In recent years, Jim has been most well known, perhaps for his work on human longevity research, which we discuss in a fun part of the end of this episode.

But he has also become fixated on ending the factory farming of animals. As a result, Jim has learned, and I amenity about alternative protein and has invested in dozens of startups in the space. He even just published a book on the topic, Mos Law, in which he discusses his views on the industry, which companies he thinks will [00:01:00] be winners and yes, which he thinks might not make it.

Also, as you'll hear in this interview, Jim has little hope that humans are going to give up on eating meat. So he's betting instead on just simply making. Without the animals. In this conversation, we discuss when he thinks such clean meat will be price comparable to conventional meat, whether price parity is going to be sufficient, and which industries he thinks are the big white spaces in this sector, and more so enjoy this wide range of conversation with a truly interesting person who's given a lot of thought to just how he can use his role as an investor to solve some of the world's most pressing problems that we face.

Jim Meen, welcome to the Business for Good podcast.

Jim Mellon: Thank you very much, Paul. Nice to

Paul Shapiro: be talking to you. Hey, it's really great to be talking with you. As, as you know, we met a couple years ago in person, but it's great to be talking, um, during the pandemic, although maybe toward the end of the pandemic it seems.

So hopefully, uh, next time we'll be talking it will be in person. But I'm really looking forward to our conversation because I really enjoyed your book. I read Mos [00:02:00] Law word for Word, and it was so impressive to me, uh, to read about your story. And I'm wondering, can you just share a little bit. How someone who started out like you not in the food and agriculture and alternative protein space, like what led you to make ending factory farming of animals your mission?

Jim Mellon: Ah, that's a great question. Well, I, I basically, um, I've been in biotech for quite a number of years now, and, uh, I'm very interested in, uh, the, the idea that they sell. Uh, which as you know, is what we're focused on. Uh, industries are effectively using biotech processes. So that was one element. The other element is that I do not eat meat.

Um, we don't eat meat in this household. Um, and I'm very. Uh, animal cruelty. We, I, I noticed that you have, you and your wife have a dog. Well, we can trump that. We have four dogs here. And, um, uh, so we're very, uh, positive about [00:03:00] animals and, and animal welfare and, uh, you know, our treatment of animals. So, in fact, just this week I spoke to, I know that you'll know him and probably know him personally.

Peter Singer, you know, the famous guy who wrote the first real book. Um, animal ethics or ethics towards animals. He's now an Australian professor, you know, uh, but very, very interesting. And I spoke to him. I was very lucky to be able to speak

Paul Shapiro: to. Oh, that's really wonderful. Peter actually was a guest on this very podcast just a couple episodes ago, so you can go and check out that he had a lot to say about food technology and in addition to being a renowned philosopher and author, he's also a food tech investor and has invested in a, uh, cell cultured GRA company in France.

Yeah, I read

Jim Mellon: about that. Um, I don't know if I was, Choosing one company to invest in, um, if it would be a far grower company. I mean, even though Far Grow is an absolutely disgusting, uh, enterprise, um, it's, it, it [00:04:00] seems to be like a bit of a niche market and it's not something that will appeal to everyone on the planet, which is how we need to get, uh, intensive farming.

Uh, reduced or removed is that we have to create foods that everyone will want to eat. And, and there's, you know, far gra, caviar, kangaroo and all these other sort of other exotic ones are niche markets at best. Yeah, I

Paul Shapiro: think that Peter's basic point about it was that he was essentially hedging his bet that he was thinking.

How much money he spends philanthropically versus as he spends as an investor. And his investments are very small, uh, because he's pretty bullish on philanthropy as well. But, uh, either way, you know, it's still pretty cool to see, uh, Peter investing in some of the food tech that we're gonna be talking about today.

So let me just get straight to your book, Jim. You know, it's a great book. It's called MO'S Law. Now, for people who don't immediately get the pun there, what is MO'S Law even referring? Okay.

Jim Mellon: Um, that is a great question. So News law is a riff off [00:05:00] Moores Law, Moores Law, uh, which is m o o r e S, with an APositive before the s was invented by Gordon Moore, who was the co-founder of Intel, and it's more than 50 years old, and he posited that every 18.

Uh, the price of semiconductors would come down by 50% and the efficiency would double and it's been more or less correct all the way through. And so I kind of riffed off that, uh, with Moose law because in order to get to the point where the food that you and I want to see dominate the food supply chain, uh, it has to come down in price and it has to increase in scale of product.

And in a way we're seeing that with, um, uh, you know, the early sell ag product. So as you well know, in 2013, Mark Post unveiled his first, um, sell Ag Burger in London. He was backed by Sergei Brin, the [00:06:00] co-founder of Google. And, uh, it is suggested, no one really knows for sure, but it's suggested that that cost about 350,000 euros or close to $400,000.

And today, Mark's company, uh, most meat claims that it can make those same burgers for $9. So that's very much on the trajectory of Moose's law. Uh, so that's where it comes.

Paul Shapiro: Okay. And yeah, one of the lesser known things that people think about when they think about that 2013 unveiling is that they did not just make one multi hundred thousand dollars burger.

They actually made two. It kind of reminded me of the line from the movie contact when they say, you know, when the first rule of government spending is, why by one when you can have two for twice the price? And this wasn't government spending, but it was of course subsidized spending, um, by, uh, Sergey Brin.

And so they actually, uh, made two of those patties, one of which they cooked up and served quite famously. The other was essentially plasticized and sits in a Dutch [00:07:00] science museum on display where you can go see it. And I have personally seen it. It's pretty cool to see that piece of history there.

Jim Mellon: Oh, I must go and see it myself.

That that would be very interesting. And of course, the great thing about, uh, well, not the great thing, but the, one of the interesting things about Mark Post is that for three or four years after the production of that first burger, he didn't have. And the whole thing sort of, uh, uh, you know, just went fairly dormant.

So actually, uh, the fact that it's gone down to $9 now is testimony to just how quickly these products could come down in price, you know, over the next two or three years. Much faster than I think most people appreciate.

Paul Shapiro: Well, we're gonna talk about that, but before we do, this actually leads quite naturally to another term that you coined.

So you coined MOS Law, which is very clever, but you also termed griddle parody. So what is that referencing

Jim Mellon: there? So, uh, grid parity is the level at which, and it's used in the energy business and, you know, it's very hot at the moment because [00:08:00] of the, uh, climate change. Uh, and, you know, the investment in renewable energy, um, it's at the point where the renewables, such as solar or wind come down to the same, uh, cost, price as electricity produced by fossil fuels or by nuclear.

That's called grid parity. So I thought, well, I'll just, you know, riff off another well known phrase. And that's, uh, and griddle. Parity means, uh, the point at which the plant-based foods are, and the cell ag foods come down to the same level as conventionally produced intensively farm uh, foods and griddle parity for plant-based foods is not very far away as you, as you know, better than I.

Um, in cell a, you know, we're looking a few years out basically, but, uh, griddle parity be a very big tipping point because at that point, um, you know, the taste, convenience. Health benefits, environmental [00:09:00] benefits will be greater than with conventional fees for all. All the obvious reasons that you know, your listeners, and you and I know very well, but when the price gets down to the same level, then it's uh, you know, the game's on basically.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah, I agree that the game is on. Um, I have heard some people, not you, but I've heard some people say they think the game is over at that point. And I do wonder whether that's true. Like I think there are a couple limited cases where I've actually seen plant-based meat marketed at the same exact price as animal meat.

And my suspicion is that it'll take actual. Uh, you know, undercutting the cost of animal products before they really start gaining dominant market share. Um, so what do you think, do you think price parity is sufficient? Is it game on or is it game

Jim Mellon: over? Well, I, I don't think anyone really knows, but, um, what I would say is that the pandemic has accelerated the process, and partly because the pandemics encourage people in the US and the UK in [00:10:00] particular to try.

Um, you know, new types of food. Uh, and, but partly also because I think people, uh, are increasingly aware that, uh, you know, the, these diseases, which of course so much disruption to our lives in the last 20 years and particularly in the last year, come from, uh, farming malpractice, particularly in the far East.

And I think there'll be much more recognition, but, If we get a bacterial pandemic, which is, you know, what we don't have at the moment, but where we have antibiotics that are resistant to, uh, you know, to the novel diseases that might come out of, uh, stenosis. Um, but we would be in a much worse situation than we are even today.

And, um, So we have to do something about the food supply. And I, I think the governments are actually increasingly recognizing that, I dunno about the American government. The British government definitely recognizes that. [00:11:00] And um, but we, we actually have to, you know, lower the dependence on intensively farmed, um, animals.

Cause otherwise we're just gonna end up with another, or even more pandemics and, and more death destruction and, and, you know, lockdowns and inconvenience for all of.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah. You know, I think that there may be a phenomenon where just like we're seeing more and more tornadoes, more and more hurricanes, more and more, uh, droughts, we might see more and more pandemics as well, which of course is gonna be obviously very, very challenging for us as a species.

Um, But we're gonna talk more about price and, and price parity, or maybe I'll say griddle parity, uh, a little bit later. But I do wanna ask you, Jim, about something that you wrote in the book, which really resonated with me because, you know, I, I spent a lot of my life trying to raise awareness about the problems associated with factory farming of animals only to see meat consumption continue to rise and rise.

And today we are fond more animals than ever. [00:12:00] Meat consumption is higher than it has ever been before. That's true in the United States. It's true in much of Europe. It's true in China and India and Brazil. If meat consumption is on the rise, not the decline right now. And you wrote something pretty poignant in the book, Moose Law, you said, and I'm quoting you here, you said, Make no mistakes.

Simply telling as many people as possible about the problem will not solve it. More and more articles will not. At the end of the day, food choices are not made in our rational brain. For the vast majority of people, if they can afford to eat meat, they will eat meat. So why do you think it is, Jim, that so many well-intentioned people believe that just raising awareness and telling people about the problems are going to be sufficient like that?

It obviously hasn't worked, and yet still so many people who care so deeply about this issue are persisting in that type of a strategy. That's

Jim Mellon: very good. I think ingrained behavior. Um, you know, we we're all, I mean, you and I were probably brought up, you know, to in an environment where meat was eaten and, uh, it just became part of our, uh, [00:13:00] our daily lives.

And, um, it is distressing that, uh, you know, meat consumption continues to go up because every time that meat consumption goes up, so does the suffering of animals and, and all the bad things associated with the reduction of that type of meat. However, let's look at some positive things. People like yourself, for instance, pros in a very positive and articulate way are important.

But it as, as we both agree, our voices are not sufficient to change things. The second thing, uh, however that it, it is changing is much more money is coming into this sector and money drives enterprise and change. And as, as more money comes in, and by the way it is beginning to flood in, I think you'll see not.

A greater consumer choice and, um, uh, better products for consumers. Um, but you'll also see a greater recognition by consumers as these companies have marketing budgets and they, they make themselves [00:14:00] better known, uh, which in term will reduce, uh, uh, and the tipping point for me should be about two or three, uh, years away, in my opinion.

Um, the next thing is, of course, environmental change. Uh, it, I dunno how many people are cutting back their meat consumption because it is a massive contributor to environmental change. But what I will tell you is that I think that the carbon credit system, which is, uh, you know, beginning to sprout up around the world in quite a big way, particularly in Europe and, and also in Asia, will force, uh, meat producing companies to pay effectively with quite heavy taxe.

And, uh, novel food companies to gain from carbon credit. So the umbrella of pricing from, uh, conventional foods, which will rise in price, uh, will be very positive for the industry that you and I champion. In other words, you know, they will benefit from the fact that the conventional foods will become more [00:15:00] expensive, not less expensive, as a result of the imposition of these carbon, carbon taxe.

Paul Shapiro: Great. Well, I do want to talk about the idea of meat taxes. Um, but you know, you, you've made this claim a couple times now during this interview, and it's probably the boldest claim that you make, um, because

Jim Mellon: it's not a meat, it's not a meat tax per se, it is a tax on anyone who produces large scale carbon emissions.

Got it. And they, they're called carbon credits in Europe. And basically what they, they trade for large amounts of money, huge amounts of. Um, so let's say you're a coal producer or you are a, a chemical producer using, uh, you know, or a cement producer, you have to buy carbon credits from people who actually are virtuous.

And, you know, this happens in, in the United States, very much the only reason that Tesla's made any profits is because of the sale of their carbon credits to, uh, car companies that, or auto companies that don't, uh, you know, aren't sufficiently electr.

Paul Shapiro: I was stunned when I saw the numbers of how [00:16:00] lucrative those credits are for Tesla.

It's an incredible amount of, their revenue is coming from just other car companies paying.

Jim Mellon: Yeah, so it's not, not specifically a meat tax, it's just a tax and it's gonna, and it is a tax, of course, it's going to work very well for, uh, the industries that you and I support.

Paul Shapiro: Well, let me just ask you then. We have tobacco taxes, we have gasoline taxes, we have alcohol taxes.

Do you think that any countries will implement actual meat taxes? I mean,

Jim Mellon: I, I think that, you know, the sugar taxes don't seem to have been very effective. Uh, I think Denmark was a country that, that tried it, um, uh, most vigorously and it didn't seem to work. Uh, meat taxes, I don't know. I mean, I, I think you'd know better than me.

I, my, my own view is that it's unlikely, too many vested interests, too targeted towards a specific industry. Um, but as part of a broader brief, which is, you know, anyone who produce. Uh, large scale carbon emissions is gonna have to pay a tax that [00:17:00] encompasses the conventional meat industry, and that's gotta be a good thing.

Mm-hmm. ?

Paul Shapiro: Mm-hmm. . Okay. Well, one of the things that, um, I, I think I, I was particularly, uh, Buoyed by your optimism on is this issue of when we're going to reach griddle parody here. So, you know, you write, and what I really thought of as like your boldest claim in the book is that you think that clean meat, or cultivated meat, or whatever you wanna call it, meat grown from animal cells could reach griddle parody within as little as five to 10 years.

So let me ask you, Plant-based meat has been on the market for decades. Um, it's never reached price parity for the most part. Uh, so why do you think the cultivated meat is gonna be able to do it so quickly when plant-based meat hasn't been able to do it for decades?

Jim Mellon: Okay. So I think, of course, plant-based meat's been on the market for decades, but it has been taking off laterally because of the improvement in, uh, its quality.

Um, the food innovation, the techno technological innovations that have. [00:18:00] Um, and as we all know, companies like Corn or Beyond or Impossible or meatless farms or whatever, have been doing very well as a result. And so, uh, consumers are much more accepting of it, and you see it much more in supermarkets. Um, and, uh, in my country, in the uk, uh, you can't walk into any one of the big supermarkets without seeing a substantial amount of this park based meat on sale.

Five or 10 years ago, you wouldn't have seen it. The same goes for dairy, um, alternatives. I mean, I, I, I think the figure in the United States is gonna be at one fifth of the dairy market this year will be alternatives. And it was half a percent as recently as 10 years ago. So yes, there is massive traction occurring in, in the plant-based, uh, uh, foods.

It may not be visible to everyone yet, but it is, it is happening and it's going to be very, very, As the scale in increases, um, of course the price starts to come down because, you know, the, the, the more that you make of something, the, [00:19:00] there's exactly this moose law, uh, the, the lower the price in cultivated foods.

The reason why I'm so bullish is because, you know, my, my colleagues, uh, really examine all the input prices into, uh, cultivated foods. So they're looking at, uh, the media price, they're looking at the growth factor price. They're looking at. Buyer reactor price, the scaffolding price, et cetera, et cetera, all of those are coming down and they're gonna come down even more.

And, uh, particularly in the growth factors, we, we think, um, and so ultimately we model that the input price for, or the inputs into cultivated foods will be about two and a half to one. Now, you know as well as I do that en cows, it's about 25 to one and chickens somewhere between six and nine to one. So the capacity.

These cultivated foods to come down below the price of conventional, uh, foods. And quickly, by the way, uh, is absolutely there. And I think, yes, five, I think five years is a bit of a [00:20:00] stretch, but I think 10 years, absolutely likely, And I'm not, it's not just me, uh, saying this, you know, Rethink X, the very, uh, esteemed UK consultancy thinks that by 2030, half of all the meat eaten in the world will be either plant based or sell.

Base and roughly equal quantity. So, um, you know, we're, we're at a very massive tipping point. I, you know, I'll get back to the dairy stuff here, Paul, because your two biggest dairy companies in the United States, Borden and Dean Foods have gone bust because of the encroachment of the, of the, uh, alternative, uh, uh, milk.

And, uh, that's before you get the perfect day in no quote type, uh, you know, rep actual replicas of, of dairy milk coming onto the market, which will be quite soon. So, you know, these industries can change extremely quickly and, um, I'm, I'm super bullish and it's gonna happen. I, my, my big concern with this whole [00:21:00] industry is not that the technology isn't gonna happen or news law won't work.

But, uh, you know, the regulat regulators will get in the way, or the lobbyists will be so strong as to stop the progress. I, my, my big concern is the execution risk. Can these companies actually. Go from nothing to something big in a relatively short space of time.

Paul Shapiro: It's very hard to create something from nothing, let alone to do it effectively and successfully.

Um, and I too am concerned about that for a variety of reasons and a variety of companies. And you know, we've already seen a number of companies that were founded and looked promising at one point, either stall or fail. And so we can talk about that cuz you're, you're actually pretty frank in the book about companies that you think, Promising and companies you don't think are promising.

Maybe we can talk about that in a bit, but I just wanna confirm what I hear you implying and what I thought you were saying in the book as well, which is that you really seem to be even more bullish on cultivated meat companies than plant-based meat. Now of course, I know you invest in both, but lemme just ask [00:22:00] it to you this way.

If you could only invest in one, what would you advise? Investing in cultivated or plant based?

Jim Mellon: Well, I, I, I would actually invest in cultivated, and the reason is not because I don't think plant based is, and that's what we eat here. For instance, you know, we have beyond burgers often in our house. Um, it's because the IP production in the cell based stuff, and bearing in mind my background is in, is in biotech, is much stronger.

And, um, the, uh, the, the moat that these companies can build up around themselves is, is greater as a result. So I, uh, I prefer it from that point of view. Um, I also think that, uh, you know, that, that there is a wider. Variety of opportunity. Cause we're not just looking at foods, obviously. We're looking at materials, We're looking at, uh, you know, all the, the stuff that you know about the leather, the, um, the threads, the collagen, uh, which gives a, a bigger, uh, combined total [00:23:00] addressable market to the.

Plant based, uh, sorry, to the sell ag companies than for the plant based companies. So it's not just about food. Oh, okay.

Paul Shapiro: Well, fair enough. Good point. Um, okay, so Jim, you wrote in the book, you say quote, um, there is no humane. Way of farming animals. And then you go on and you start talking about fish and you're saying, I quote again, Humans are literally at war with fish using quasi-military techniques to scoop up as many as possible of the creatures depleting supplies and in many cases destroying them.

So you are invested in some of the alternative fishing companies. And I know that you're pretty, um, boish, or maybe I should say Phish on them. So tell me about who you've invested in and if you want, why you haven't invested in others since I know you share some pretty frank thoughts in the book on this topic about who you think are gonna be the winners in this

Jim Mellon: space.

Okay. Well in, in Phish. Now Phish is interesting because, uh, it will be faster to the market. Um, as you well know, uh, Blue Nalu is very likely to be on the US market [00:24:00] by the end of this year. Uh, the price of its Mahi Mahi Phillips will be approximately twice that of the regular retail price, but that's not a huge, uh, gap that's on small production of only a few hundred kilograms a week.

Um, uh, my absolute standout favorite is Blue Nalu. Um, I think that they have a platform technology that's really, really good. They have engaged with their regulator, which is the FDA on an exclusive basis since the fish only is regulated by the fda. Meats, which are regulated by both the U S D A and the fda.

And, uh, they have a very veteran, uh, management team that we have high confidence in. Um, so I think that, and, and the other great thing about fish is that yes, there are so many reasons why you would want to eat cultivated, uh, fish over. Farm fish or wild caught fish, uh, toxins, antibiotics, microplastics, you [00:25:00] name it.

We are all familiar with the fact that if you eat fish more than twice a week, your, you know, your, your level of toxins and mercury can go up significantly. So you've gotta be very careful about how much fish you eat. Um, and that doesn't happen with the, uh, with the cultivated, uh, fish. So I think Phish is gonna be the first standout success in this, um, area if you leave aside, uh, dairy products.

Um, and Blue Nalu is the absolute, uh, you know, top company. Now, there are other companies in the field. We have invested in Chik, which is a Singapore based company, um, engaged in the production of Shrimp Paste, which is, um, an Asian. Type of thing where you don't actually have to have a structured shrimp, you just get the shrimp taste effectively.

Uh, you know, in terms of winners and losers, I would say that, uh, blue Nalu is, uh, an obvious winner to me. I'm not sure about x. But you know, I, I, I, I, you know, [00:26:00] we, we, we, we went into it early and I'm not sure that we, that was a wise course for us.

Paul Shapiro: Okay. Well, we've had the,

Jim Mellon: without saying it anymore, because, you know, , I don't want to kinda a lawsuit from, uh, she meets, but, you know, it's not, it's not, um, it's not one of our favorite.

Well, we've actually had the

Paul Shapiro: CEOs of both of those companies on, um, uh, both Sonya and Lou respectively from sh and Blue Na on past episodes of this show. So if people wanna learn more about those companies, you can go back and, uh, and listen to those. They're both really interesting interviews, so, Okay. I, I was surprised, Jim, in the book when you talked about, uh, Corn Q Urn, the, uh, company making fungi based meat out of, uh, out.

Um, the uk I was surprised that you were not more boish on them because they seem like they've been a really major success story to me when they got acquired for a huge amount they've done well. And you basically said that you don't really think that's gonna be the future of the [00:27:00] alternative meats, and that you thought maybe at best it would be something like a filler for sausages or sausage rolls or something.

So why, why do you think that, I mean, why do you think that corn is at best gonna be a filler as opposed to becoming maybe like a, a beyond meat type? Well

Jim Mellon: that's, that's a great question. I mean, that's because it is, I mean, you know, corn is largely fillers for sausages and for pasts, which the things you don't have and you don't eat as much of in the United States.

Um, and, uh, but it's also, it's, it's inter, I mean, I don't really, I dunno if you know, it's owned by a Filipino company called Nien Foods, which is a private Filipino company. And, uh, there is, uh, husband and wife team at the head of that. Um, Henry c Santo is the husband and he is actually a personal investor in a number of these, uh, sell ag, uh, companies himself.

Uh, they bought it, you're right, they bought it for 400 and something million pounds. I think it was a very astute buy. Um, I [00:28:00] think it's gonna be successful. I missing foods itself is going public on the Filipino stock exchange at the moment. Um, I just don't regard it as, uh, as, you know, missing foods is making noodles and it's making all sorts of other food as well.

It's not one of it, it's not it's main division. It's not the reason that you would necessarily buy missing foods. So it's from an investment point of view, it's a bit like buying. Kelloggs, which on the basis it's got one or two investments in, you know, promising new food companies. But we all know that Kelloggs is actually about cereals and it's regular lines, basically.

So it's all diluted in the mix that that's why I, it's not that I, I don't think corn's a good company. It's just I think that the corn element of NI is small.

Paul Shapiro: Got it. Yeah. I, I, I was surprised by it because I'm a regular corn consumer myself. I actually really enjoy, uh, they have a, a number of their lines are vegan, and I think they're really good.

Um, but I'm also a, as you know, um, and, and may disagree with, [00:29:00] uh, that, uh, you know, I'm a fan of getting meat companies to use less meat. And so if corn is selling, its myprotein. As something that's going into sausages so that meat companies can use fewer pigs. I'm quite pleased by that. I think that's a good idea.

Um, so what do you think?

Jim Mellon: That's what you do and very successfully, so thank you. I think that's the key elements, and as you rightly point out, reducing overall consumption of meat. Um, not just because of the animals, but because it's good for people to eat less

Paul Shapiro: meat. Yes. Yeah. That's, that's how I feel about it.

And you know, if you look at, you know, you're talking about like, uh, Rethink X and some of the other, uh, reports, you know, even their most bullish projections show that within a decade, you know, maybe, uh, plant-based meat can be 10 or 20%, or cultivated plant based. It can be like 10 or 20 or maybe even 30% of the total meat market.

And that to me suggests that the vast majority of meat for a long time is gonna be coming from factory farmed animals. And so if we can get that meat that will still be the [00:30:00] dominant source of, of, uh, meat for people to have less animal protein in it and more plant protein, it's gonna be better for animals, better for their health, better for the world in general.

Um, and so I think it's a good strategy. I don't think it's the only strategy. I'm not saying I think it's the best strategy, I just think it's, it's a good supplemental strategy. And, um, I will put in a personal plug. You know, in the book Moz Law, you rate all the companies, I mean scores and scores of companies in the, um, in the back of the book there with your rating of one through five stakes of how promising.

And I was quite proud that the Better Miko got four outta five stakes in your book, Jim. So thank you for that. We're honored by it and we.

Jim Mellon: Having spoken to you, I guess you, I better give you another one as well, . Okay.

Paul Shapiro: The, in the, uh, in the second edition, we wanna get five outta five, but no, we're on for four outta five.

That's good because in the, in

Jim Mellon: the next edition, you're definitely five outta five .

Paul Shapiro: Thank you, Jim. Yes. Well, if Beyond Meat got five, Outta Five and putting Better Meat Co at four, outta five, I'll take it. [00:31:00] I'll take it

Okay. So let me ask you, Jim, you know, you have, uh, diligence, huge numbers of companies, you know so much more about the space than the average investor in here. You've written an entire book on it. Uh, surely though there are companies that don't yet exist that you think could exist that maybe could do a lot of good and would be lucrative.

So are there any freebies that you're willing to give away here, companies that you think, Hey, if these folks had a good business plan, maybe I'd consider investing. Are there any company ideas that you want to throw out there for anybody listening who might be thinking, Hey, I'd like to start my own alternative protein

Jim Mellon: company?

Answer to that is not really because we're about to create a white space company ourselves under our agronomics brand. Um, and so that's obviously, uh, taking technology from a research institution and backing scientist entrepreneurs, which is the way that we operate in our biotech business. Um, but if I was looking at [00:32:00] it, um, from, you know, from a startup point of view, one thing is obviously you mustn't infringe the patents of the existing companies and that's something to, you know, look at very closely when you are, when you're starting your company up.

But I think the whole geographical spaces in which entrepreneurs should be thinking about setting things up. I spoke to a credit Suite's conference for Asia or Asian investors last week, and there's almost nothing in Asia. We talked about she. Um, the cell X in China, there's a event meets in Hong Kong.

Um, there's, um, integrity culture in Japan, but really very, very little. Uh, and yet Asia is the going to be the largest market for, um, it may already be for animal proteins in the world, so surely there should be more innovation out of Asia. Um, I also think in my own country, the uk, which imports half of its food and has a very long.

Uh, background in bio sciences. What, what, which is the basis for a lot of this stuff. Uh, we should be [00:33:00] starting more companies and I, I do believe the government is going to be encouraging that. Um, because at the moment, you know, the three clusters of, uh, that we see are your country, the United States. Um, obviously always the leader in in forward thinking technologies.

And then, um, Israel and then, uh, Holland. Uh, and, uh, but we don't see a lot really in many other parts of the world. So I think, I think regionally, people should be thinking about setting up businesses. Uh, in terms of the low hanging fruit, I wouldn't go into any of the niche markets, uh, that, you know, because there's so much to do in the, in the mass markets.

And, um, uh, if you're not infringing anyone's patents, I would think that, uh, in any of the material areas, there's, there's still white space opportunity. And in, uh, in the ground meat market, I think there's still quite [00:34:00] considerable opportunity. And of course, in fish, I think there's opportunity. And then, you know, the, the, the dairy, uh, companies, you know, the perfect day, which has raised a huge amount of money.

Um, and which I think we're doing incredibly well. Um, we invest in a company called Legendary, which is out of Berlin and is seeking to use the same processes as, um, perfect day to produce, uh, mozzarella substitutes, but surely the other, uh, opportunities and cheese and in other dairy products, um, for company, for entrepreneurs around the.

Paul Shapiro: Great. Well, that's exciting and I totally agree. Uh, there is an ocean of opportunity in alternative seafood, punt pun certainly intended. And, uh, if I were making my own recommendation in this space, I think there's so much more room for more companies in, in that space. So hopefully, uh, some of them will be coming into existence.

Maybe some of them will be inspired by your words here, Jim, And we'll, uh, decide to get started after hearing you. So let me ask you, you know, you talk in the book [00:35:00] about, In the future when we're raising far fewer animals, you think that there will still be some farm animals, like we still have some, you know, horse drawn carriage rides and so on in cities.

But, And then you say you think that the affluent may still eat some hobby animals, but let me ask you, like, if we get to a time when there are so few animals being raised, do you think people will allow that? Like you think that there will be a time when so few animals are being raised that the consciousness surrounding the treatment of animals changes sufficiently that people would not even allow that type of hobby, animal consumption, as you call it?

Well, I would hope

Jim Mellon: so. Uh, I just don't know. And, and, you know, It's, uh, it would be great if that was the case, because it is, well, I mean, we're preaching to the converter here, but it is an absolute scandal, uh, about, you know, the way that food is produced. And there is no, I mean, you know, we're all just made of cells, aren't we?

So there is no justification for slitting anyone and any sentient beings. Uh, [00:36:00] in order to eat it, there is none. And, uh, so it doesn't matter if it's, you know, massaged in coba and fed beer and, you know, lives in a lovely buco environment and then, you know, it's, it's slaughtered at, uh, when it's, uh, you know, sort of gentle and humane fashion.

It doesn't make any, it doesn't make any difference to me at all. I, I would like to see it all erad. Got it.

Paul Shapiro: Okay. So let me ask you then, are there any resources, Jim? So for people who share your vision, Of a more humane, more sustainable food system. They maybe are thinking, I'd like to become an investor myself, or maybe they're think I wanna join one of these companies, or even start one of these companies.

Are there any resources after they've read MOS Law that you would recommend that they check out, that they've been helpful for you or for other people you know that you would recommend to them?

Jim Mellon: Yeah, I think you go to the Good Food Institute, look at their website, look at their, uh, free to view or free to, you know, read, uh, [00:37:00] information, which is very good.

Uh, I'm a big fan of, and I know you are too, of Bruce Friedrich and his team. Um, I think they're the best, uh, initial point of contact and they are also, uh, commercially savvy in the sense that they, they know what the landscape is like for. For new companies, and they can be very helpful in that respects and, and that, you know, I, I just think they're very good people.

Um, then, uh, you know, there are multiple books on, you know, why we shouldn't eat animals. And, uh, there aren't many books about I I read, um, I think it was Chase pers book about, uh, effectively about e just, or just Eat, but it, it covers some of the other companies including Memphis meets. That's an interesting read.

But it's more, it's more sort of journalistic and anecdotal than, uh, the one that I've written, which is basically, you know, here are all the companies, this is what we think of them, you know, here's all their contact details if you want to get in touch with them, which I think is probably the better way of doing it.

Um, [00:38:00] it's important to remember that there are, as far as I'm aware, not one of these, uh, sell ag companies that are, is public yet. And, um, it won't be very long before they. Uh, I'm sure the spank boom is going to, uh, introduce some of these companies to the, to the market. Um, but, uh, at the moment it's very difficult for retail investors or for non-institutional investors to get invested in, in, um, in this area.

Uh, and, uh, and, and the other thing you know, is to get in touch. I mean, I dunno how, how, how many emails you want to get Paul, but, uh, you know, people like yourself, uh, are great points of contact. Very happy on LinkedIn for people to get in touch with me. I'll put in touch with the right people, you know, I think the more people that join our party, the better, frankly.

And, and if you are an entrepreneur and you're looking for funding, then you know, we are always interested in looking at, at, at good ideas and business plans and, uh, and seeing if we can be of.

Paul Shapiro: That's fantastic and we will certainly include then your LinkedIn in the show [00:39:00] notes of this episode. And people can always contact me through the website business for good podcast.com.

I do get emails literally every day with something relating to some questions for resources or something else that people are seeking. And I'm always happy to hear from people. Uh, I view my role, uh, as really more than my own company, of which I'm very proud, but also as somebody who's trying to. Bolster the entire alternative protein space so that it won't be alternative for much longer.

That it'll be the mainstream and rather than the alternative protein. Um, so I appreciate that, Jim, and it's wonderful of you to make yourself so available to folks. Now, uh, let me ask you, you know, finally, one of the, Things that you were most well known for prior to being an alt protein investor was somebody who has an intense passion for longevity.

And when we met first, a couple years ago, you were telling me you were essentially regaling me with tales of how you believe that, uh, maybe even the first person to live to 200 will have already been born. So how long, not how long would you [00:40:00] like to live, but how long do you think you're going to.

Jim Mellon: Well, my dad's 92, so I'm hoping to, I mean, I hope he, he makes it to and plus.

Ok. He's in good form. He's, uh, he's actually the oldest public company, uh, director of a public company in the uk. Yeah. And he's, uh, he's been learning Italian and the lockdown and all that sort of stuff. So stay engaged, uh, is one of the messages. It is obviously the pandemic has thrown a lot of stuff up in the air and you know, unfortunately it's demonstrated, but older people are much more susceptible because of their, um, lowered immune systems to disease.

Um, and that we need to build up that those immune systems. And there are many, many projects in the works to do that. The company that I was reg regaining you about jus is now valued at close to a billion dollars and it's about to go public. So, you know, the industry a rather like the, uh, our industry, the, you know, the, the, the newer gray and revolution industry is beginning to, [00:41:00] um, to, to take off and attract serious money.

Um, but it's still the dial luck phase of the internet. You know, it's, it's, uh, we don't exactly know what's going to work, but we know something's going to work. But I can tell you that in 10 or 20 years time, there will be pills that you and I can. That we'll be, uh, will improve our health span, which is the number of healthy years that we live, that we're not sitting and dribbling in a, in a chair, in a nursing home or a care home since the end of our lives.

So we'll be much more robust. And there are strategies, uh, that are being developed in close proximity, which will allow us to live 3, 4, 5 extra years. And those years will, uh, will snowball, There'll be more and more of them. So yeah, I don't think that anyone is alive today is gonna lift 200, but I think 150 is.

Um, is a very good target. Uh, and who knows, It might be you, Paul .

Paul Shapiro: Uh, I think there's a lot of people who would rather it be somebody else, but I'll take it if that happens. So, hopefully, hopefully you and I will, uh, be [00:42:00] centenarians and we'll be enjoying our, our time together and your dad will still be alive and we'll be taking whatever these magic pills are.

I'll look forward to it. I'll, I'll sign up for 'em. Don't worry. Very good, Jim. Well, uh, it's really great to talk with you. Congratulations on the book. I can at, I can attest that not only did I enjoy it, but I actually sent it to one of, uh, the investors of the Better Miko, who is on our board of directors.

And he read it and was raving about it, saying how useful he thought it was as well. So from a real bonafide investor right there, you got a great endorsement. So thanks so much for writing it. Thanks for all you're doing to help advance this space, Jim, and we'll look forward to continuing. To cheer for all the entrepreneurs in here together.

Thanks for listening. We hope you found use in this episode. If so, don't keep it to yourself. Please leave us a five star rating on iTunes or wherever you get your podcast. And as always, we hope you will be in the business of doing good.