B4G EP 145 Leveled

Paul Shapiro: [00:00:00] Guy, welcome to the business for good podcast.

Dr. Guy Sandelowsky: Hey, Paul. Thanks for having me.

Paul Shapiro: Hey, it's my pleasure. Should I call you Guy or Dr. Sandolowski? I don't know. I feel like whenever I talk to a vet, I should show some respect here.

Dr. Guy Sandelowsky: Guy is fine. Thank you for asking though.

Paul Shapiro: Okay. Well, if you ever if you, if you ever inspect my dog, Eddie during that inspection, I will refer to you as Dr.

Sandolowski. Okay. Deal. Yeah. Just to make myself feel like I'm actually talking to an expert, but guy, I trust that you're an expert. But I'd love to know why you became a vet in the first place. You know, there's a lot of a lot of people go into veterinary medicine for different reasons, but you not only went into it, but then you left it to do something else.

So before we get to that part of your journey here, guy, why'd you do this? Why'd you become a veterinarian?

Dr. Guy Sandelowsky: Yeah, it's a, it's a great question. I really think it was a childhood calling in my instance, because I've forever loved dogs. Even as a toddler, I would go and call up to a dog and start interacting and trying to make friends.

And then that just [00:01:00] stayed with me into adulthood. And I just always felt some sort of affinity, I guess, to dogs in particular, but pets more generally. And I thought, well, how awesome would it be to dedicate my career to helping dogs and other animals like. You can do that as a career. Amazing.

You know, what could be better than that? And I was pretty interested in science as well at school. So putting the two together, it was quite a natural career path.

Paul Shapiro: Were you in school this time at Switzerland?

Dr. Guy Sandelowsky: So I was schooled in the UK in London. Yeah, I, I was born in Switzerland. Yeah.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah, because your accent is not like pure British, like you can tell it's like British and somewhere else, so I know that you're from Switzerland though, so there must be some, some blend there.

Correct. If

Dr. Guy Sandelowsky: I speak with my kind of British accent in Switzerland, no one understands what I'm saying, so I've had to adapt to survive, pronounce my R's.

Paul Shapiro: That's really funny. So, yeah, you know, I I, I had a similar childhood in that [00:02:00] respect in that I loved animals really deeply. And in fact, my mom worked at a local animal shelter when I was growing up.

And so we always had rescue dogs in our house three or four at a time. And I, I loved them. Like if you go back and look at like the essays that I wrote in grade school, they're all about dogs. And so when you love. Animals as a kid, people tell you, Oh, you should become a veterinarian, right? Become a veterinarian.

The difference between your story and mine though, is that when I went to school, I wasn't that great in science and I did love animals. And then I learned that to be a veterinarian, because I, as a kid, I thought I was be a veterinarian. And then I learned that you have to go to like six extra years of school and you got to do all the science.

And I was like, ah, I don't know. This is for me. And then when I was a young teenager, I learned that there were people who professionally devote their lives to helping animals who are not. Veterinarians, but who work in like the nonprofit animal protection movement. And then I thought, ah, that's what I'm going to do with my life.

So I can help animals without having to go through all that extra schooling. But I admire that you went through that route, but obviously you decided after becoming a veterinarian that you didn't want to do that forever. So [00:03:00] what happened? You're practicing veterinary medicine. Presumably it's a good living.

I mean, veterinarians do pretty well. And you thought. Ah, let me take a detour here and do something that has a high chance of failure instead. So why'd you decide to stop being a vet and become an entrepreneur?

Dr. Guy Sandelowsky: Funnily enough, before I answer that, I was actually the opposite. So I didn't, I wasn't allowed pets at home.

Like we went, you know, my, my dad was quite strict about us not having any pets at home because he was going to look after them and all that sort of stuff. And so it was the opposite for me. I just thought, wow, how amazing not only have a pet, but then also work with pets forever. So it's funny how we got to, to that place in different ways in a way, but but yeah you know, being a vet I'm still you know, clinical to an extent, but yeah.

Really, for me the, the great thing is how, how much you're on the front line. You're able to really talk to people who have pets in their lives and really make a difference for them and the pet's health. I think the limitation though, for me was that, you know, even on a really busy day, you might treat 20, 30 mats, maybe [00:04:00] even 40 pets a day.

And I just felt after a while that. I wanted to have even more impact and I realized as well that there was an opportunity to kind of combine what I'd learned being clinical and being in the vet space with some, I guess, business acumen or business knowledge to really have colossal impact. So rather than, you know, impact 40 pets a day.

You know, something that would really change the game, impact millions, if not billions of pets. And that's really what drove me to leave something that I quite enjoyed and focus on something which I thought would have, you know, more impact in the future.

Paul Shapiro: Had you become a vegetarian? Was this why you were thinking about this?

Like, most people aren't thinking like that. You know, most people, even veterinarians are not thinking, how can I maximize the number of animals who I'm going to help? Right? Like, so why were you even thinking in that type of a mindset?

Dr. Guy Sandelowsky: Yeah, actually, this wasn't related to my own kind of lifestyle or dietary choices.

It was more born out of the day to day of being a vet in a [00:05:00] busy clinic. And it just occurred to me that so much of what I was treating was actually preventable through better nutrition. So as vets, we're great at treating things. I don't think we're as good at preventing them. So, you know, in the UK and in Europe, we know that almost one in two dogs are actually obese.

And we as vets are treating those dogs with lifelong painkillers for their sore joints and so on. But it also was other things, you know, the most common presentations we see in the clinic are gut issues and skin issues. So, you know, an itchy dog that's got waxy ears or a dog that's got runny stools and, you know, you know the story.

And in all these cases, What we're doing is vets was looking for, you know, cleaner diets that were lower in fat, but also that had different proteins to the regular proteins you would expect in pet food. And very often just by switching up to a novel protein, we're actually able to make that pet better without meds, just by using lower fat recipes, lower calorie recipes, we're able to help that pet with their obesity.

So [00:06:00] this is where I started to think, okay, maybe there's an opportunity here to use nutrition to actually improve pet health. And that's kind of where the concept came from for my business.

Paul Shapiro: It's interesting because most of the people who I know who are concerned about their pets diet, right? Including one who I was with yesterday and these people love their dog.

Their dog is like their pride and their joy And they told me their dog only eats because they care so much about what he eats. They only eats a raw meat diet, right? And most of the time when I hear people talking about Quote unquote, clean pet food. That's what they're talking about is like raw meat or something that a wolf might eat.

You're taking a very different approach though. And you're saying what the term you just used is novel proteins, right? So I'd love to know from you, like, you know, what are the novel proteins that when you were a vet, you were thinking, Oh, it'd be better if we were feeding these dogs, these proteins rather than what they're currently eating.

And you know, how'd you even know about them?

Dr. Guy Sandelowsky: It's a great question. I mean, just on raw diet. So there are lots of arguments for and [00:07:00] against feeding a dog a raw diet in a domesticated setting. One really interesting thing that a lot of people don't realize is chicken and beef are the most common allergens for dogs.

So whether it's rural cooked, if you're giving your dog one of those proteins and they have, you know, telltale signs of a sensitivity, a food sensitive, your food allergy, It might be that it's because it's chicken or beef, regardless of whether it's raw or cooked. And a lot of people don't realize that and they spend forever looking for, you know, other ways to improve their dog's itchiness or their tummy problems.

But as soon as you switch the protein to something different, actually can really do a lot in terms of helping them with those signs. But you know, I'd love to think that I'm the first person to think of this concept, but I'm not the truth is, you know, novel protein diets have existed in the veterinary profession for generations.

They are usually, you know, hydrolyzed plant based proteins that are hydrolyzed intentionally. So hydrolyzed is when you basically chemically treat the protein so that the dog's [00:08:00] immune system doesn't react to it. And you know, the giants in this space, the hills, the Royal Cannons, the science brands, they've been doing this for the perineas, they've been doing this forever.

But I think what people didn't necessarily realize, or at least a lot of pet parents didn't realize, was that actually, you don't, doesn't need to be hyperallergic to an animal protein to gain the benefits of using a plant protein or a yeast protein. And that was kind of the leap, I guess, to think, okay, rather than just focus this on, you know, allergy dogs, why not offer this to a broader population?

And some of the studies that are coming out now seem to suggest that doing so might actually, you know, improve pet health, improve life spans, improve, you know, the requirement to not have to take all these meds into later life and so on.

Paul Shapiro: So is that what you mean, guy, when you use the term novel proteins, hydrolyzed plant proteins?

That's what that's what that is a code for.

Dr. Guy Sandelowsky: I should actually explain. So in the vet world, novel protein just means a protein that that dog wouldn't have. you know, necessarily had before in their [00:09:00] lives. So you could even have, you know, animal based novel proteins. So you get these funky diets that are made with like reindeer meat, because it's very unlikely the dog will have eaten reindeer or something else like that.

But you know, in in, in, in Omni Omni, we kind of take it away from animal proteins and we're just looking for, well, what other novel proteins can we use that dogs are unlikely to have had a lot of in their lives. So we start thinking about. yeast proteins, algae proteins, things like that. And the reason, you know, you asked earlier about what makes, you know, a good novel protein for me, it's, you know, chemically, it needs to be offering what meat's offering.

It needs to have the same amino acid profile. So amino acids are the building blocks of the protein, but also it needs to be safe for dogs to eat and palatable. And actually what's really cool is you don't need animal proteins to hit all of those three points. Now you can get really great amino acid, rich non animal proteins that are palatable, that are safe for dogs that are absorbable and [00:10:00] digestible.

And it kind of begs the question, well, why bother with the animal proteins? Then it's a lot, a lot of a lot of negative sides to that, which we can obviously go into in a bit.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah, sure. I would like to get into that because obviously most people think. Dogs want meat. In fact, most dogs think that they want meat as I've found in my life.

So I do want to get into that, but let's first just talk about your journey first here because guy like you were a successful practicing vet. You decided to leave that profession. And so what was it that gave you that catalyst? You're thinking, well, Okay. I'm seeing all these dogs coming in who have health problems or gut problems, obesity, skin problems, and so on.

And you're thinking instead, I want to help treat lots of dogs. As you said, rather than just the dogs who come immediately before me, I'm going to start my own company and start hawking plant based dog food. So why, why do this? Why, why take that risk? It's kind of like we had on Umo Valetti, the CEO of Upside Foods recently in a past episode recently, and you know, this guy had a [00:11:00] really successful cardiology career.

And he left because he wanted to start a cultivated meat company and it's a big risk. So we heard from him why he did it, but why you, why did you decide that you were going to be the one to do plant based dog food?

Dr. Guy Sandelowsky: I mean, at the end of the day, it comes down to my respect for the human animal bond and.

You know, the trigger was linked to what I was seeing in practice, but also my own personal experience. You know, my, my black Labrador Bondi who, you know, got diagnosed with mouth cancer when he was four years old was a wake up call for me. I started to just wonder why it is that he got mouth cancer at such a young age.

Of course, we know cancer is multifactorial. There are lots of potential causes, but we also know that If we eat processed meat as humans, three times a day like we eat McDonald's three times a day we're probably, you know, for the rest of our lives, we're probably going to get sick. So why is it that we feed?

Why was I feeding my dog? Why do 70 people feed [00:12:00] their dogs? Processed meat, lard, these ingredients, highly processed that we know aren't good for us. Why am I feeding it to dogs this frequently? And that in combination with all the clinical cases that I was seeing that I could also, you know, relate to the nutrition that was being fed.

It just made me feel like it was almost my duty to not just. Kind of let that go by, but to do something about it. And yes, there was risk involved. There's always a risk when you, you know, you have a decent job and you've worked to get there, but you want to do something different. But I also feel like if you don't take risks, you don't really change the game.

And I've always been quite determined to do something really impactful in the world. So I think that's what drove me. Kind of that real life personal experience based on combining what I've seen in the clinic and that drive to really do something meaningful for, for pets.

Paul Shapiro: So how'd you get started? I know that you were in the pro veg incubator and we can link to that in the show notes for this episode of business for good podcast.

com. But was that like your first step to think, okay, [00:13:00] let's go into an incubator to learn how to even go through the logistics of starting a company?

Dr. Guy Sandelowsky: I didn't do it alone. So I have a co founder. His name is Shiv Sivakumar and he interestingly, his family grew up in Southeast Asia and the dogs that they looked after were on plant based diets anyway, which was kind of interesting.

So he was kind of shocked when he was in the UK. Seeing all these health problems, learning about them, why that we aren't doing kind of more what he was used to back, back where he grew up. But, you know, we have a complimentary skill set to answer your question. So he comes from a finance background.

He understands the business side of things. And I come from, you know the clinical background, the veterinary background. So I, you know, I had good insights into some of the problems that were happening on the front line with our pets. And I think both of us shared this kind of love for pets in general.

And I think when you mix that all together, that was kind of the secret sauce that got us really excited when we were meeting, when we were getting going. And then, [00:14:00] you know, we put together a business plan based on this concept of using nutrition to improve pet health and also do better for the planet.

And we presented it to ProVed International in Berlin at the time it was during COVID. So we weren't actually allowed to meet face to face at that point. There were a lot of kind of restrictions for meeting up, but we, you know, we pitched online, we pitched in a zoom call and we just told them about our idea and what we wanted to do to the industry.

And fortunately they, you know, it was quite a competitive program, but they saw the vision and they believed in us as very early founders and gave us a chance. You know, they gave us a little bit of grant funding to start with, and they helped us develop the business. And it really went from there, to be honest, that was the, the, the starting point.

Paul Shapiro: How much money has the company raised so far?

Dr. Guy Sandelowsky: Oh, that's a good question. I want to say around 1. 6 million pounds.

Paul Shapiro: And your [00:15:00] revenue is already in excess of that, right? I think you're doing a couple million pounds in revenue annually. Is that correct?

Dr. Guy Sandelowsky: Our revenue growth is quite exciting to me because it shows how this sector has so much potential.

So we've gone from doing around, you know, 400, 000 pounds in our first year to then Just shy of 700 and then 1. 2 million and now on track to do four to 5 million. So you can see that the, you know, not only are the products good, people keep buying them, which is why we're able to kind of continue doing business.

But also I think the sector is. Growing. I think the awareness around the health benefits, the environmental benefits of switching out, you know, traditional proteins for these is becoming, you know, more widespread.

Paul Shapiro: So it's obviously impressive that for a company that's only a few years old to already be on track to make four or five million pounds of of revenue.

And so, you know, when you look at that, it really does beg the question for me, at [00:16:00] least is who's the customer, right? Like if you think about them. Plant based meat. All these companies, they want to branch out beyond vegetarians, right? They don't want to just sell the vegetarians because frankly, there's not that many vegetarians.

And so they want to sell to meet meat eaters who want to eat more plant based, essentially, the reduce iterians or the flex iterians. And when I think about the market for plant based dog food, I just think, okay, well, you're starting out with people who are vegetarian, and then it's who people who are vegetarian who also want their dogs to eat vegetarian.

At least some of the time. Is that accurate? Or am I missing something where you're actually seeking to market way beyond the vegetarian market?

Dr. Guy Sandelowsky: In all honesty, you know, the early days when we started the business, We did get a lot of growth from the exact customer segment that you're describing. So people who, you know, live a plant based vegan flexitarian lifestyle themselves, any of those, and for them, there's a [00:17:00] conflict that they're not eating meat for whatever reason themselves, but they're reaching into a bag of meat based dog food every day to feed their pets.

So that's definitely that was definitely an area of tension for a lot of households. And the reason why they didn't switch is because there wasn't really necessarily many or the right credible options for them to feel like they could do it and their pets would be fine. And I think that's where we had a real advantage because obviously we went about things in a very science health first way.

And it allowed people to at least give us a go and see how their dogs got on. And then when they saw that those are doing well, they, they stayed with us. I have to say that. In the last kind of 12 to 18 months, we've seen a lot of growth now from people who don't necessarily fit that criteria. So they are eating meat but they are choosing us for health reasons.

They are seeing that their dog's skin is better on our diets, that their dog's digestion is better, even behavioral improvements. They see that their dogs enjoy the taste. You know, a lot of the people that choose us just do that [00:18:00] because their dogs get bored of other foods and they don't get bored of ours.

So we're attracting. Customers, I would say, you know, still, of course, because they may be plant based or vegan or vegetarian, but the other side, I would say about 50 percent of our customers now do eat meat, but they basically choose us for health reasons for their pets.

Paul Shapiro: What's the cost differential if somebody is going to buy this versus conventional dog food, not like high end dog food, but just conventional Mars or Purina dog food?

Dr. Guy Sandelowsky: We charge around 6. 50 a kilo. And that puts us what we call in kind of the lower end of the premium segment of the market. We're never going to play in the budget sector of the market. The foods you, the foods you might find in the grocery store, you know, that are sold in bulk that's not us.

We're also not at the top where, you know, fresh frozen foods are even raw diets. We're really kind of the affordable end of premium. And there's a reason for that. We, we believe that. To really [00:19:00] have the biggest impact, help the most pets, help the most pet guardians get the benefits of our diet. We don't want to be cost prohibitive.

So it only makes sense to, you know not not make our products too expensive. On the other hand, we also know that We need to spend enough money that the quality is there and that's why we're still operating the premium segment of the market. And I would say for the people listening, we're talking, you know, equivalent to kind of the sort of brands you might find at your vet clinic.

That's the sort of area where we're pricing Omni.

Paul Shapiro: And if you are thinking about the quality that you're referring to, I presume you're talking about the novel protein. So I know that in the future you want to be selling pet food with cultivated meat in it. And we're going to get to that in a moment. But for now, what are they?

What are the novel proteins? Like if I buy a bag of omni dog food, it's Is it, you know, in with Wild Earth, which is the top plant-based brand in the United States, you know, they use Asper ore or, or jis what is colloquially [00:20:00] called as a novel protein in theirs. So are you using something like that? Is there, you, you mentioned algae earlier, like what is the actual novel protein source that you're using?

Yeah. One key

Dr. Guy Sandelowsky: differentiator of ours is that we don't have. a single hero protein, and that's very intentional. So we actually have a proprietary blend of yeast proteins, algae, proteins, pulse proteins, and plant proteins. And that's intentional because we don't want that to be a scenario in 10, 15 years where they discover that if a dog.

is fed really high amounts of yeast protein, for instance, that there's some mineral in that protein that causes toxicity over time. So rather than do that, we actually find that mixing the protein. So you've got low levels of all of them kind of allows you to get all the nutritional benefits because you're still getting that really wide amino acid profile.

So the building blocks, the protein, the dogs need, but we're not risking some sort [00:21:00] of kind of backlash in five or 10 years when we find out that actually dogs don't do well if they have too much of a certain protein source. And that is, I think, as a vet and as somebody who's learned a lot about nutrition for pets over the years, you know, I think the right way to go.

When we're talking about novel proteins, you're right. There is a new arm of our business that is looking, you know, quite intensely at how we might use cruelty free chicken protein, especially for the cat food market. Because, you know, digestive systems of cats and dogs are different and we can go into that in more depth if you'd like.

But, but yeah, I think really when I refer to the fact that we use quality ingredients, if you feed your dog a meat based diet. It's very unlikely that the ingredients that are included in that diet of things you would eat day to day, you know, there's a lot of animal byproducts. There's a lot of kind of highly processed trans fats, all sorts of restaurant grease used to make the food taste good.

We don't do that. [00:22:00] Literally every ingredient in our recipe is something you would recognize something you would, you know, at least know of and maybe tried, maybe have in your fridge, maybe have in your cupboard. And. I think that is what is important. You know, yes, you can fill a dog food with bone meal and feather meal.

And yes, you'll get the protein criteria, but would you eat that yourself? Probably not. So why are we feeding it to dogs? That sort of kind of,

Paul Shapiro: No, I, well, even if I weren't a vegan, I wouldn't eat that myself, but I will tell you my dog, Eddie, every time he finds a bone on the ground, like, you know, we live near a park and there's a shocking amount of chicken bones on the ground in the park.

And I'll tell you, he eats them so frequently. I've seen. I've had him for like four years and he's probably eaten chicken bones that he's found in the park maybe 200 times. And my mom is always like, Oh, he's going to get sick from this. He's going to pierce some internal organ or something with it. But so far he hasn't, it's amazing.

I don't know. But he, you know, he he seems to really like [00:23:00] eating them. I don't, I don't know. I'd like to make,

Dr. Guy Sandelowsky: yeah, I'd like to make a comment on that because I think, you know, sometimes there's this kind of awkward elephant in the room where people kind of look at me and they're like, well, you know, you know, dogs like me, right?

And they'll look at my eyes and they'll be like, yeah, of course I know. And I do, I totally know dogs love meat. And that's the challenge of this sector. It's like, okay, you can make something that's great on paper. That's healthy. And it's got all the bells and whistles. You've got to make sure the dogs like it, right?

Otherwise, that's not fair. You've got to make sure they're having fun because food is one of their biggest joys in life. This is where we spent ages before we released our first product. We did about 20 recipe iterations. We finally got to a product that we felt would be at least as tasty as palatable as a popular meat based diet.

And now we have data that shows, you know, we, we took over 200 dogs. We sent out our food. They were on a [00:24:00] meat based diet and we have data that shows 92 percent of those dogs loved our food and the majority actually chose our food when it was offered at the same time as a premium meat based diet. So, you know, so I'm not saying the dogs don't like me, but what I'm saying is we can get, and I'm sure they like bones and other bits, but just because they like it doesn't mean we can't get the same level of satisfaction with non animal products.

And also doesn't mean it's good for them. And yes, I agree. Feeding a dog. Cooked bones is dangerous. They can splinter. They can. I've seen it in the clinic. I've done the surgeries. If your dog hasn't had that issue, I'm happy, but just be aware there, there is that risk. And, you know, sadly, not all the dogs that do eat those bones are that lucky.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah. I, I, I hear you on that. I am aware that there's a problem. I, I, Don't know why this hasn't been a problem for Eddie so far. He is a very hefty pit bull, and I think he just is like a machine that just churns through them. But you mentioned this doing studies guy, and I want to ask you about this because I was reading about some of and you [00:25:00] found that Dogs who are eating Omni pet food typically had firmer stools than other dogs who, who weren't, which of course, as somebody who picks up a lot of dog doo doo, that is very valuable for me.

I presume it's better for them, but it's definitely valuable for the person who's got to pick it up. So what I first want to ask about that, like, you know, how many dogs have you measured and like, how does one measure the firmness of a dog stool? Like, is there some machine that's doing the texture analysis on this?

Like, what is the, what is the method for making that type of a conclusion?

Dr. Guy Sandelowsky: The headline findings of our study last year are really exciting. You know, we had a hundred dogs eating omni diets for up to a year, so a decent amount of time. And there were statistically significant improvements reported. So yeah, you, you mentioned one of them.

People noted that they were able to pick up their dog stools more easily because they were firmer, but there were others, you know flatulence, a polite way of saying farting. So dogs were farting less on the diet. [00:26:00] skin improvements, you know, dogs that were scratching or had really waxy ears were scratching less this wax in their ears reduced even behavioral improvements.

Like any study, you know, there, there were weaknesses to the study. A lot of the data that was gathered was based on what we call guardian reported data. So that means, you know, you would, if you were a part of the study, you would basically be filling out Some sort of questionnaire to report what you're seeing on a periodic basis with your dog.

And you're not a vet. So you might, you know, your assessment might not have been accurate. And that's one of the kind of limitations of the study. On the other hand, We had a good sample size. We did over a long period of time. A lot of those people, you know, used to feed meat-based diets and were quite skeptical about feeding our non-meat diets, and yet the results were really compelling.

The other thing to say is we are just one company, one kind of group of [00:27:00] researchers and scientists. In this space, there are others now who have done really quite clinical studies looking at dogs eating diets like Omni and have been able to find, you know, more clinical verifications that dogs eating these diets are getting some of these improvements.

So, you know, clinical assessments with a vet, blood test, urine analysis, stool sample analysis, all the sorts of things that you would really need to be quite firm about the fact that, well, the assertion that You know, these diets are actually healthier. So it's not just us. And that's what gives me even more comfort.

Even though there were limitations with our study, there's a lot more coming out every day.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah. Well, I like your point of saying you have to be quite firm about that when we're talking about firming up dog stools here. But I am going to look into how they're measuring. I know that you're saying your study was Guardian reported, but you say.

There are other more rigorous ways of testing this. So I feel bad for the lab clinicians who, who have to be the ones measuring that for sure. But I want to ask you guy about just some of the regulations here, like in the United States, we have [00:28:00] a organization called AFCO, which regulates what ingredients and what nutrition can be used in dog food and cat food.

And the AFCO rules are way stricter. Then FDA rules for human food, and the reason is because, you know, many people just feed their pets the same thing every single meal. And so you want to make sure it's complete. So all these dog foods are supposed to be complete foods as opposed to human food, which nobody is thinking every meal they eat needs to have every single nutrient that they might need because they're going to eat a variety of foods.

So the rules in the U. S. Are pretty strict. on what needs to go into dog food. And this has been a problem for a lot of the alternative protein companies that are making novel proteins because they're using organisms that haven't been approved for pet food. Things that are, you know, many humans are eating that aren't.

And I'll give you an example. You know, you're, you've spent a good amount of time in Britain Well, you know, millions of Britons and other Western Europeans enjoy eating corn, Q U O R N, which is made from a microorganism called Fusarium [00:29:00] venenatum. And Fusarium venenatum is totally safe for nearly all humans who eat it.

But in the U. S., you couldn't put that into pet food because it's not approved. They haven't done all the studies that are required to put Fusarium venenatum into pet food. So I don't know what it's like in Europe, but I presume it's similar. And so my question for you is really, you know, how do you get around these?

I presume you're only using. Foods that even though you call them novel proteins are already approved for use in the EU, like you've not gone through novel protein regulatory affairs in the EU to do this. So is that the answer that you use foods that are novel to pets, but I've already been approved for use in pet food.

Dr. Guy Sandelowsky: We, we do up until recently, you know, we have focused on proteins that have already been fed to pets in one shape form or another. So there isn't that regulatory hurdle, which is great because that means we can get going. You know, there's Millions of pets out there that can benefit from these diets. [00:30:00] So the advantage of that is we were disabled to get started and we're growing and pets already seen the benefits, but not all of the proteins that we are using or intend to use in our recipes are, you know, fit that criteria.

And a good example of that is the fact that we are very interested in the potential of lab grown meat. And we touched on this earlier, but There is a fair amount of evidence to suggest that cats are obligate carnivores, and in contrast, dogs are considered nutritional omnivores, and what that means is, like us, dogs are able to derive all the nutrients, macro and micro, that they need to thrive without necessarily eating animal tissues.

Cats being obligate carnivores, on the other hand, are reliant on certain nutrients that we can only really provide for them in animal tissues. And so I think cultivated meat other way of saying lab grown meat is a really interesting protein source for [00:31:00] that use case. And that is very much under that novel protein umbrella.

We wouldn't, you know, we've, we've made a product already for cats using that product. And we're kind of in the process of the regulatory approval steps. But

Paul Shapiro: it's definitely, how does that work? I started to interrupt you, but I'm familiar with novel foods, regulatory steps that are needed for human consumption in the EU, but is there a different body that looks at what you need for cat food as an example?

Dr. Guy Sandelowsky: I can speak for the UK. So we have the FDA sorry, the FSA in the UK, and we have DEFRA. Those are the two kind of, let's say, regulatory bodies. We also have FEDIAC, which is the AFCO equivalent in Europe. And basically those bodies together will be assessing any kind of novel, ingredients on their safety, on their digestibility, all the stuff that you would expect in the human space as [00:32:00] well.

The difficulty is it's not every day these sorts of ingredients are kind of invented, right? It's kind of a big deal. So there isn't necessarily A very clear path. I think it's kind of being built now as food technology is evolving. Some of the pressures on the planet, the health situation for both humans and pets are arising.

I think it's becoming more urgent now that we find these other solutions. And therefore I think the processes are becoming clearer, but to answer your question in our instance, it's basically a question of communication. You know, talking to the regulators from day one, explaining what we're trying to do, the reasons being very transparent about where we're at with the process, you know, we have this ingredient, we're planning to make this product, these are the tests we're going to do.

These are the safety precautions. These are the feeding trials. And just working together. So it's not us and them, but it's like, how can we do this as a unit to make it the future? [00:33:00] And I do feel from a UK perspective that there is a lot of support for this direction of change.

Paul Shapiro: I know that you are working with Meatly, which is a cultivated meat company in the EU.

Interestingly, I just saw that there. Founder CEO is no longer the CEO and that they've installed a meat industry executive who came from Purdue Farms, which is a major meat company in the United States. So it's always very interesting when we see conventional meat industry executives switch over to the alternative protein industry.

And this is one such case. It's unclear to me, though, how soon this will be. There's tons of animal lovers who have cats who would love not to be feeding their cats factory farmed animals. You know, the plant based cat foods that are out there, and there are some brands that are out there generally are not that popular among cats.

I have tried this myself and seen this as an example. So, I know that you are waiting for certain things, but what are [00:34:00] the stage gates? Like you know, when do you think you'll have your cultivated meat cat food on the market? And what needs to happen between now and then in order to make that a reality?

Dr. Guy Sandelowsky: Our goal is to sell the first cans or pouches of this product before the end of this year. So it's not, you know, too long to wait, hopefully, given how impactful this will be. I suppose. You know, the steps are, you know, getting a protein a reliable source of the protein be it meatly or anyone else that can show that they are producing this kind of novel cruelty free protein in a way that is safe and reliable.

And combining that with, you know, you know, our expertise on other ingredients that go into pet food, cooking processes, packaging, shelf life, all of that. And getting it to a point where we're very confident that on paper it's safe, you know, no microorganisms [00:35:00] that could cause harm, good shelf life, good nutrient profile, good potential palatability.

The next phase is some sort of feeding trial because it's all very well saying you've got the best product in the world on paper, but you need to make sure that. The pets are enjoying the product that is digestible and safe. So that's kind of this year. Once all that is done, then, and by the way, this isn't a lab animal necessarily.

This is, we have a product, it's great. These are all the safety credentials. Would you like to be the first to see what your cat thinks of it? That's sort of a, so it's at home. you know, environment, it's not necessarily anything unethical in terms of how we, how we get that data. And then, and then that's it.

And then it's all about, once we've, you've got that ironed out and, and, and perfect, it's about scale. It's about making sure the manufacturer of that protein, be it neatly or anyone else. Is able to keep up with the demand because like you say, there are just so many people out there that would love to switch to a solution like this.

And that's where the [00:36:00] next challenge comes in

Paul Shapiro: recently. Guy, we did a series on this podcast with various leaders in the cultivated meat space. People whose companies have raised hundreds of millions of dollars, tens of millions of dollars, companies that have been around since 2015. So pretty long time frame in the world of cultivated meat.

Yeah. And none of them think that they're going to have any meaningful commercialization in the 2020s. They think they might have some symbolic things like in some individual restaurants. But if you ask them, when are you going to be actually on grocery store shelves with something like that could start making a real dent in demand for animal based meat, they think it's in the 2030s.

So you're making a pretty bold claim that your aspiration is to release a cultivated meat cat food within the year 2024. What do you think? Why do you think that you can do it? Is it just such a low percentage of cultivated animal cells that will be in the product or is it going to be 50 percent cultivated animal cells?

Like what is the product actually going to be?

Dr. Guy Sandelowsky: I think that's a combination of [00:37:00] factors. So a lot of the companies that you are referring to are laser focused on producing a product for human consumption. And I just think that there are. Limitations to how quickly that can be achieved. You know, humans do care about what the food they're eating looks like much less than pets do.

So things like texture and appearance of this product are the bar is higher, let's say for humans. So if you wanted to create an analog to a beefsteak. Just as an example, I think for that to be accepted and for it to be popular with humans, it really would need to look like a beefsteak and taste and have the textures and be very similar.

Otherwise, you may not get, you know, mass buy in. You may not, it may not be popular, and that could be very damaging for a business. On the other hand, in the pet space, a lot of the food is actually created into these kind of biscuits or tins or pouches of wet food, [00:38:00] and appearance is sometimes less.

Important textures are sometimes less important. So there is kind of this ability to kind of maybe cut some corners in terms of textures that you wouldn't be able to do in the human space. Necessarily. The other thing is. The companies that are just focused on pet need to be an example for that reason are able to go a little bit quicker and able to produce, you know, different amounts.

You know, then maybe somebody that's trying to produce the perfect beef steak. So, yes, there is that component. The other component is that. It will very likely be a hybrid kind of product between plant based non animal proteins and cultivated meat proteins. It's not possible to our knowledge, to my knowledge, this day and age to create, you know, something that is a hundred percent cultivated meat for the reasons you said, the volume limitation, the price limitation or the cost limitations.

So it needs to be a hybrid product. The exact percentage really depends, depends [00:39:00] on how the product's made. And my Punch is that the percentage will be going up very quickly in the next few years. It might start off lower in the next year or two, and then it might really start to ramp up as supply of the protein goes up.

Paul Shapiro: Interesting. Yeah. I know that Goodmeat in Singapore is now selling a cultivated chicken product for human consumption but it's 3%. Animal cells. So the protein is overwhelmingly plant based mainly from soy and wheat. And then it has 3 percent animal cells from chicken cultivation in there. And I would love to taste that back to back with just a regular soy and wheat chicken strip and see, like, can I tell the difference as a human consumer?

But surely as you know, and as most people would know, as far as conventional dog and cat food is concerned. It often has plant based proteins in it. Anyway, a lot of conventional dog and cat food is a mix of animal and plant material. So the idea that cultivated pet food would have to be entirely animal cells is obviously [00:40:00] too high a bar.

I think for that industry to meet, but if it makes it more palatable. Or makes it more nutritious. It could be great. I know that my own dog, Eddie, he's had a very difficult time trying to enjoy a lot of plant based dog foods. And when I do give it to him, I have to mix it in with other dog food to kind of trick him into eating it or I'll like mash it up with other dog food and some wet food so he can't separate it out.

I guess it's it's amazing how discerning his palate is. Yeah. But that's really cool. I would love to see the cultivated pet food come out onto the market within 2024. It'd be a real dream come true. And I've, I've seen some news articles about your aspirations there guys. So we'll include that in the show notes for this episode at business for good podcast, excuse me, business for good podcast.

com. Let me ask you then, you know, you are only a few years in to your entrepreneurial journey here, but you're on a wild Ride here. You know, you're already doing millions of servings and millions of pounds in revenue here. So you probably [00:41:00] having had the success that you've had have thought about other entrepreneurial endeavors that you wouldn't mind seeing happen in the world.

But presumably you're going to be busy doing Omni for some time here. So if that is so, what do you hope somebody else will do? Guy? Is there some other type of entrepreneurial endeavor that you hope will come into the world that maybe somebody listening will take you up on? It's yes, there

Dr. Guy Sandelowsky: is. And it's a little bit technical.

So I'll try and explain my kind of what I consider to be a problem that would be amazing to have a solution for. So if you have food, a pet food, and Let's say you home cook for your dog, or let's say you buy a few different brands, depending on price or what you feel like purchasing. Actually, the ability to really find out in that food, the nutritional analysis of that food, currently, is [00:42:00] very difficult.

You need to kind of mix it all up send it off to the lab, spend thousands of dollars or pounds, wait a really long time. It gets passed through loads of complex machinery. And then you eventually get a report that tells you how many, you know, milligrams or grams per a hundred grams on a dry matter basis.

This combination of foods has for your pet in terms of vitamins, minerals, proteins. I think. We need to make that easier. We need to put the power in the hands of the pet guardians and almost have like some sort of a instant, like you have an instant blood test or an instant snap test. where you just get a sample of the food and add some solvent, add some water to it and put it through like a simple plastic tube.

And then somehow you, you get the results, you know, through [00:43:00] that in a much simpler way, because I think it's just so hard for people with pets to know exactly what they're feeding their, their pets. And I think it's so, It's been, it's so complicated to work all that stuff out. So I think anything that simplifies that process and just gives more power and knowledge to the pet guardian in terms of what they're feeding is going to be a game changer.

I would be very proud to have our food on the analyze in that way, because we do go the extra mile and get everything analyzed and spend the money and wait the time. But I just be curious how many products out there and how many diets out there actually are not meeting those requirements that pets need.

So I would love a simpler way. To do that in the home environment.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah. It could wreak real havoc on the laboratory testing industry. If there was a way to have like a instant at home kit. So maybe that's one disruption that's just waiting to happen. That sounds pretty cool. Finally, guy are the resources that you'd recommend that anybody thinking about maybe starting their own company or otherwise entrepreneurial [00:44:00] contemplations that you think, Hey, this was useful for me, so I hope you'll check it out.

Dr. Guy Sandelowsky: Definitely. I, I went to business school. I went to Imperial college business school in London and. You know, as part of my entrepreneurship program, we were warned loads of times about a very common problem that founders face where they try to get perfection in their first attempt. So they'll spend ages and ages, months and months, you know, perfecting their idea, their concept, talking to everyone about it, building massive reports.

But actually what I've learned is it's better to just test and learn, fail fast, iterate and test again and keep failing and keep iterating until you get somewhere. And I read a book while I was doing my MBA called The Lean Startup. By I think someone called Eric Reese. And that really inspired me to just get going.

I had a good idea. [00:45:00] I wanted to just start and learn and ask customers what they thought and then get their feedback and act on that. And I think that's really what I would recommend is if you've got a good idea, if you want to change something about the world, Try and just do a little bit of it first and see how you get on and then iterate and build up to what you want to get to.

But don't keep it secret for too long and don't like kind of work on it for too long before you actually start finding out what your customer thinks because at the end they're the ones that are going to give you that insight you need to make it a success.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah, you know, it's so funny. I talked to a lot of founders and want to be founders who want to keep their ideas secret because they're afraid that somebody else is going to rip it off.

And, you know, I've told them time and time again, If merely thinking of it is the moat that you have, that's a bad moat, right? Like it's never the idea. Like I could have had an idea for a supercomputer that goes in your pocket, but that doesn't mean that I invented the iPhone, [00:46:00] right? Like there's lots of people who have ideas and if merely having the idea and people knowing the idea is such a threat, then it doesn't.

Really seem like you're going to have that much success. I'd also suggest that I've read that we can start up and we liked it. We'll link to it on this episode page at the website, but you know, when people want to, let's say, learn how to play soccer, they don't read a book about. How to play soccer, right?

They get on the field. They start kicking the ball around and see how it feels to play soccer. And, you know, eventually if you want to get really good, you may start actually reading books about the history of soccer and about the, you know, various ways to improve your practice, et cetera. But most of it is going to be from practice.

And so, you know, with entrepreneurialism, it really is one experiment after the next. And it means getting out there on the field and actually Testing your product, seeing if people like it, seeing if it's worthwhile and going from there. But guy, I am impressed by what you've accomplished so far. It's definitely in a rarefied world when it comes to entrepreneurs [00:47:00] who are having the type of revenue that you're having after such a short amount of time.

So congratulations on finding something that people really want. And I'll look forward to getting to see how cats respond to the Omni cultivated meat cat food. Hopefully within 2024, that would be quite amazing if that occurred. So I'm rooting for your success and both for the health of the dogs and cats who will be your customers.

And also for all of the chickens, pigs, turkeys, cows, and fish who also will not be eaten because of your good work. I say, thank you.

Dr. Guy Sandelowsky: Thank

Paul Shapiro: you,

Dr. Guy Sandelowsky: Paul.

Paul Shapiro: Thank you so much.