Selling Shovels and Pickaxes to the Cultivated Meat Pioneers

Paul Shapiro: [00:00:00] Taryn, welcome to the Business for Good podcast.

Teryn Wolfe: Hi, Paul. Thank you. It's great to

Paul Shapiro: be here. Hey, it's really nice to be talking with you as well. first of all, congratulations on becoming the new c e o of Matrix ft. That's exciting. , thanks. Thanks.

Teryn Wolfe: No, I'm really excited

Paul Shapiro: too. Awesome. I can't wait to talk all about it, but lemme just get straight to the point here because you know when this show began, when this podcast began, it was back in 2018, I had just published a book called Queen Meet and there were probably like less than 10 companies working in the like cultivated meat space or what would now be called the cultivated meat space.

Now there's over 150 and you are one of 'em. So tell us why does the world need another cultivating meat company? What are you all doing that's different that is useful for everybody else?

that's a really good question and I think I should probably start by saying we. Don't make cultivated meat, nor do we ever [00:01:00] intend to make cultivated meat.

Teryn Wolfe: Okay. Um, and I, two things about that might be, there might be two misleading things out in the ether there, that might make people think that we make meat. the first one is that before we rebranded in early 2022, the name of the company was Matrix Meats. So that's a little confusing.

, yeah. Yeah.

Paul Shapiro: Fair. fair enough. Okay. , is the ft what does Ft even stand for? I know for food technologies. Food technologies, okay. Not football, not football team, but just Matrix food technologies. Ok, got it. ,

Teryn Wolfe: I would not be the CEO of a company that had anything to do with football, so

Okay. Which apparently is a very embarrassing thing when you live in Columbus, Ohio. Cause everybody here lives osu. I might have just shot myself in the foot by admitting that I don't know anything about football, but . so Matrix, before we rebranded in early 2022 was Matrix Meads and obviously, Pretty, serious misnomers.

So we always started these conversations saying, Hey, we're called matrix meets, but we actually don't make meets. We make the enabling, technology that allows, two for the production and then also scale of cultivated meat. and the other thing is recently we [00:02:00] published some images and a press release, which was picked up by a lot of different.

media outlets in our space, around the chicken nugget that we made on our own micro carriers in our lab.

I I saw this, the photos are pretty good. I saw it touted as Ohio's first cultivated chicken, so that was pretty cool that we're now getting into the first in each state. But it's awesome that, it's not coming from, Silicon Valley or, somewhere in the Bay Area, but rather it's coming from the heartland in Ohio.

I know that you all don't intend to be selling these chicken nuggets, but tell us what is. all about the first chicken nugget. that was cultivated in Ohio.

Teryn Wolfe: Yeah, sure. I mean, the chicken nugget really goes back to what our core technology is, and that's micro carriers and scaffolds for the alternative protein industry.

and so what we make is a product that mimics an extracellular matrix. So in nature, cells need vertebrate cells need an extracellular matrix to grow on, right? They need something for cells to attach to so that they can, start to proliferate beef up and then to. Actually develop into muscle tissue or in

Paul Shapiro: this case, chicken up.

Teryn Wolfe: [00:03:00] Exactly. Exactly. Yep. There you go. . and so our product as serves as that extracellular matrix and has a couple different functions. So first, the micro carriers, they're very teeny tiny, these are for use in a bioreactor, and cells will adhere to those micro carrier. and create lots and lots of cells.

so cells will stick to these, they really like these micro carriers and they'll make more cells. And then let's say I'm really oversimplifying this process, but, I guess to make the conversation accessible to everyone. So you

Paul Shapiro: don't Yeah, make it, mix it, make it accessible. Tear into a dummy like me.

So just, you got these cells they need to. Something to grow, right? Because otherwise, the otherwise, the media, which is a fancy way of saying the feedstock, what the ingredients and nutrients that they're going to eat can't get through to them. All right? You're gonna have necrosis in the middle, and so you gotta actually get all of these cells happy.

And if they're gonna grow into a three-dimensional structure, you need something in there. .

exactly. And so what you'll get with the micro carriers, for example, is probably not, yet, alar, you won't get, [00:04:00] that 3D structure. These are something, they're made for, to function with the fluid dynamics of a bioreactor.

but you'll get lots and lots of. Sell mass. And what's interesting with that is all of our products are animal component free, and they're all edible. So they're all made with plant-based proteins and food safe ingredients. so that can actually become part of the final product. Now this is really interesting for early stage cultivated meat companies, I probably shouldn't even say early stage for cultivated meat companies that are doing things like sausages, mimicking processed meats, because there's no need to create a whole cut of meat and then grind it down into something else to make it a sausage, right?

Teryn Wolfe: You can. Have that kind of cell mass and that biomass with our micro carriers included, and they can become a part of that, final customer facing product. the scaffolds are a little more complex. so we use, different technologies to make our scaffolds, but our core technology is electro spinning.

And so electro spinning is gonna make these really teeny tiny fibers that cells will adhere to. And then once they adhere to those scaffolds, they will, the alignment of the fiber. The size, some of the [00:05:00] different parameters and things that we can change on these scaffolds, which are like a sheet, will start to signal protein expression, gene impression, OB expression, obviously, alongside growth medias and other factors in the process.

but that's actually going to allow for. The maturation and differentiation of those cells so that you'll get a whole cut of muscle tissue. that's also for proliferating cells, but they have two different functions and you can use one or the other, or you could use, both in tandem, but you know, in our industry, a lot of people have experience using micro carriers and scaffolds.

Teryn Wolfe: These aren't new technologies. These have been around for decades. And, medicine and life sciences and, regen, regenerative medicine, teacher engineering, et cetera. , but a lot of people were struggling on how to use a product that was made with food safe ingredients or also just what is this going to look like in food, right?

Is this gonna look like, is this gonna show up in my final meat product? Is it gonna change the texture? Is it gonna change, the bite? what is this actually look like? and because we're making a self culture food ingredient, it doesn't stop. Culture [00:06:00] process. A lot of our customers were struggling to understand like, what's the end use of this particular thing beyond this cell culture process.

so that's when we decided, hey, we should make this chicken nugget and show people how it works. we were a little nervous at first because we didn't want people to think that we were going to start making cultivated meat. That is not our intention. We, our intention is to stay in enabling technology and manufacture this technology that can actually help cultivate meat companies achieve a better product.

Teryn Wolfe: At scale. but we,we, we've been using this kind of on a case by case basis and then finally this year we decided to let it out to the world. But the chicken nugget was really interesting. We have a university partner that we source some, chicken sas from, and then we grew those in our wet lab.

So we have both our engineering lab and we have a, our wet lab where we do all of our testing on our own products, plus we do some contract research. services for other companies, cultivated meat companies. so we grew the cells and we made a hybrid chicken nugget and it turned out really well.

We did the first tasting internally. everybody signed a [00:07:00] waiver. It was great. and so actually we're planning another tasting here over the next couple months that we're already preparing for.

Paul Shapiro: Very cool. Taryn. Very cool. So when you say it's a hybrid nugget, what you mean is that it's not entirely comprised of animal cells, right?

So it's a chicken nugget. What percentage of that nugget is chicken versus whatever else you're putting? .

Teryn Wolfe: Yep. For these nuggets it was, we didn't make many and we don't have cap a capability to make a large amount of cells in our wet lab, today. And so I think our nugget, we only made a few nuggets and they were like 20% cells in the rest was the plant-based protein.

Paul Shapiro: Interesting. Okay. correct me when I get this wrong, but essentially there are a lot of companies out. That want to be the brand, right? They want to be the impossible foods or the beyond meat of cultivated meat, right? So companies like Upside Foods, they want to or eat, just they want to sell the product.

You are not [00:08:00] seeking to create a brand, you're seeking to create a process that helps those brands make better products. So instead of, rushing for gold, you're essentially selling the gold rushers. Their shovels and their jeans and their pickaxes is that an accurate assessment of what Matrix FT is doing?

Teryn Wolfe: That's exactly what it is. And literally the enabling technologies are referred to as the picks and shovels. Yeah. So the thing that actually allows the gold rush to

Paul Shapiro: happen, . Cool. Yes. I didn't think I was in inventing the analogy, but Yes. I appreciate that . cool. So why are you doing this? you're now the C e O, so the, the founder and c e o Eric has left the company and you now are in his shoes at the helm.

Why you, what led to you being the one who's gonna run this company and sell all those, picks, uh, the pickaxes and shovels to the company's rushing for gold? I think there's a lot of personal story involved in this, and then also just a series. Life events that led me to matrix.

Teryn Wolfe: But the first one is personally food has always been really important to me. And, so like [00:09:00] longtime vegetarian, vegan for many years. I worked in development. I spoke a

Paul Shapiro: little bit. what led you to become a vegetarian or a vegan turn?

when I was younger, I grew up on a farm, and we always had, cattle on our farm.

Teryn Wolfe: And I remember when, one day we were sitting at the table and I was with my sister. So I'm the youngest of five. Of course, my uncles, my dad are at the table and we had just set off. Sent off like our three pet steers that were our family, that they had names. And I was gonna be like, I don't know, 13 years old.

and we're eating burgers at the table and my uncle and my brother, of course, high school boys start teasing us, start making jokes. I don't even remember what the animal's name was. but they were like, oh, this, yeah, this Taste delicious. I don't know, I can't remember what the beer's name. But it all of a sudden hit me clearly.

Teryn Wolfe: I knew where meat came from, clearly I knew the reason why we had those animals. But literally it hit me that I was like, I can't believe that I'm eating one of my pets and my sisters as well. We were furious with our parents. I'm sure there was a, some storming around like, young teenage girls were leaving, how could you [00:10:00] do this to us?

We're running away, blah, blah, blah. but I, at that point, both of my sisters were also like, We're gonna be vegetarian. my other sister's vegetarian, I have a sister who is like lifelong hardcore vegan. There was a period I, so I moved overseas when I was a teenager. and I lived in Europe.

I lived in Spain, and I saw a very different food system than what I was used to seeing in the United States. and when I was there, I did eat. some meat. I do remember like having it and I felt like, hey, this is a little bit different, but why? at that point in life, that wasn't my top priority exploring the food system

but I remember when I went to college and I moved back to the United States, I really felt like that was one of the things that shocked me about the states was, Food and access to food and what food even looks like and how it's packaged and it tastes. And, so made that transition again, was vegan for quite some time.

Teryn Wolfe: And then long story short, ended up living in Columbia. and when I was in Columbia, I'm still vegetarian, but I was working in development and was, I was traveling a lot to rural areas and, I could only survive up so many packs of peanuts, [00:11:00] for weeks at a time. started, so had a vegetarian diet, just to make it through.

But yeah, when I'm home, like in my house, we eat completely vegan. and I would say probably the vegetarian part is more of a social thing.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah. Interesting. for folks for whom it's not obvious, you're referring to Columbia, the country, not Columbia, Maryland, where I grew up near there.

but while I grew up in, near Columbia, Maryland, I remember back in like 1994, my parents sent me, one, summer for six weeks to Costa Rica to do this. It's like a community service project where you basically, built playgrounds and reforested areas that have been deforested and stuff like that.

Paul Shapiro: And, I was vegan then and still am now. but I was a relatively new vegan back in 94. And when I went to Costa Rica, I remember, it was not the easiest thing. it was, lot of free horo . It was,and I remember thinking like that if I lived there, it would've been more difficult.

I mean, it was only six weeks. It was fine. And I was actually. With a family, like in their home. and the mother there was very interested in it. Like, she was like, oh, [00:12:00] just like in a , very healthy. but for them, like meat wasn't a daily experience anyway. Maybe today it would be all this years later.

Yeah. But back then it wasn't a daily experience anyway. , but, okay. So that's interesting. you have an animal welfare motivation partly for the reason that you wanted to become vegetarian and then vegan. And, I interrupted you, Tran. You had mentioned as part of the reason how you became the c e o of Matrix ft.

That it was your interest in plant-based eating and so on, but obviously there's a lot of vegans in Ohio, so that's not the reason why you became into the situation. So what happened?

Teryn Wolfe: Yep. So I think that's just one piece of it. This has always been something that's really motivated me, and that I've been very interested in.

And, So when clearly, I ended up moving to Columbia, so I ended up going to Columbia in 2013. And then from there, I was awarded a Fulbright Research, scholarship. And so I

Paul Shapiro: was a Fulbright research scholar, not too Abby. Congratulations.

Teryn Wolfe: Thanks. Thank you. and so yeah, I was in Columbia and I was working at the National University in Medi as a Fulbright research scholar.

And while I was [00:13:00] there, I ended up finishing my time there teaching at the university for a while. I opened a nonprofit, and I'm covering like eight years now, very quickly. but then through the nonprofit I ended up opening up a company. and what the company did was basically set up projects, do consulting, and, we worked with a lot of different types of clients from like big companies to small nonprofit.

Government, some VCs, basically saying, look, this is how we manage social, environmental, and financial value. we don't, value the right things in society because the things that we value have,monetary value on them. And so that immediately is like this unit of measurement that we all share.

But because of that, we're destroying a lot of. important value. That's environmental, that's social. and we need that because that actually creates wellbeing for us. and so this has been the way that I approach business, that I approach, the way I think about things is how, where are we balancing value?

What's this give and take with every single decision that we make? Eric, our former c e o, I had actually met Eric, briefly in [00:14:00] Columbia through a company that he had before Matrix. and he, I remember him saying, look, you're in this kind of social environmental space. , I need to talk to you.

I have this company, I that we're thinking about opening, and I think this maybe in like 2018, two early 2019. and this is what it is. So we started talking about alternative proteins and I, this space that I followed very closely, that I'm, that I think has. the, there's a huge opportunity for impact here.

and so we were just talking back and forth and, I mean, just listening to him and how inspired he was about the impact that alternative proteins could make. and just hearing someone who came from background in military talk about this and how he inspired he was by it. for me that was.

that was huge. so I don't, we talked about it a couple times when I started following the cultivated meat space a lot. Getting, getting really familiar with the space, the, with the alternative protein space. Clearly very different in the United States than it is, in Columbia. but, I think, we had talked a couple times afterwards and then.

Teryn Wolfe: I spoke to someone who is now on our board of directors, from UN Novis. [00:15:00] And then from there, there was a position open and we had talked about it a couple times and Eric said to me, Hey, I think you're the person. to, to help me lead this. I think this is it. This is the right attitude.

This is where we need to go. There's a lot of uncertainty in this space. and we need to, make sure that we're making the right decisions for the right reasons, especially as an enabling technology, which you joined the team. at that time, I was living in Santa Mata, which is on the Caribbean.

It's really beautiful. I had a house in front of the beach, so I was like, no, dude. Sorry. I love what you're doing. You got all my support. but , I don't think so. everything was going great, with my company. but then long story short, my son was born, and we, I started having a change of heart and I was like, this is actually something that I really would like to be interested in.

But we couldn't leave Columbia because my son was technically a Columbia National before he was a US citizen. And even though we had sent all his paperwork pandemic, whatever, they said it was gonna take several years. but long story short, I spoke to Eric again and he said, Hey, Would you come and [00:16:00] join us?

and I said, yes, I would, but there's this problem I can't leave my son in Columbia. And then literally the next day, his passport showed up in the mail that we weren't expecting for years more. Wow. so it was like, okay, universe, we get it. I'm going to Matrix. and so I, came to Matrix and I started October of 2021.

Teryn Wolfe: and it's been incredible how the company has grown since then. And of course, I wanna say it's incredible how the cultivated meat industry has grown then. but I think, also that with the statement that it's crazy how it's grown, but also all the things that have happened and cultivated meat and alternative protein just, over the last year, which are difficult and, make things difficult, I think in the short term for people who are working in this space.

but regardless, just shows the need for this growing need for alternative proteins.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah. So you talk about how the company has grown Terran, I think you guys have 10 full-time employees now. Right. You've, and you've raised about 4 million or so. so Congratulations on that. [00:17:00] it's wonderful.

but you talk about some of the struggles that the whole space is facing right now. What are those that you see? you alluded to the struggles, but what specifically are the biggest hurdles that you see preventing cultivated meat from becoming mainstream? Aside from lack of regulatory authority, of course, but just in terms of anything else that you see that needs to be overcome.

Paul Shapiro: before we start seeing this and, let me give a little bit of background actually. I am working right now on an updated version of the book Queen Meet. it came out in 2018. It's now 2023, and a lot's happened in those five years. And, what's striking to me is I'm updating the book, for the forthcoming paperback edition is.

So many timelines that were predicted by people in the space back in 20 16, 17 and 18 have been missed. Right. And I, I say this only because it's sad and painful and true, not because I like it. In fact I don't like it. but, people were thinking these products would be on the market in 2018 or by [00:18:00] 2022.

And here we are in 2023, and in the US at least zero grams have been sold. In Singapore, it's a very small amount and everywhere else in the world at zero gram still. So what are the hurdles that you think need to be overcome so that five years from now when you and I are sitting here, cultivated meat will actually be on the menu?

Teryn Wolfe: So I, I think that there are probably two big things to this that if you can get these two things, the rest will follow. the first one is the regulatory piece. And just like you said, there have been so many really important target dates that have been missed. And early 2022, we were preparing, our customers we're preparing to literally have cultivated meat pro products on the market by the end of 2022.

And I even remember having a conversation with, And there was a group who were like really involved in regulatory, issues and really close to what was happening with cultivated meat in the F D A. And they said, yeah, you might even be eating cultivated Turkey by November, 2022. So of course, [00:19:00] we're all just working like crazy.

We're like, yes, this is happening. We need to be ready for this. And then I think it was in July of 2022 that there was a statement, published by the F D A saying that this was now a long-term priority. I can't even tell. The chaos in our lab that day, because what does that mean, ? I think it was just very confusing for us.

Like, what do you mean it's a long-term priority? Does this mean one year? Does this mean three months? Does this mean, 10 years? And so I think we, we very quickly got some clarity on what that means. And somebody did respond to us from the f d N said. Going, do not stop, do not lose momentum. And they do have an incredible understanding of the space.

And I think our moving relatively quickly, if you consider how long it often takes, novel foods to be pushed through the fta, A F D A. but that being said, that was really chaotic for us, especially as a B2B company, as an enabling technology for cultivated meat companies. and that regulatory piece, we still don't.

Clarity on that particularly. And I think that [00:20:00] probably is holding back a lot of things in the industry, just understanding, when are we gonna have a market, right? cuz there's the when and we know the market size and how much, but it's, how long can we hold on? Especially, when this is a almost completely funded venture capital funded industry, right?

Paul Shapiro: But I mean, there, there certainly has to be regulatory authority in order to get things going. But if the F FDA and U S D A today, Came and said, okay, we're approving this. All of you all can sell. They didn't just do one company at a time. They said the entire industry can sell it. It wouldn't still be on,big box grocery store shelves.

It wouldn't be on fast food menus. Like in the way that you can go to Burger King and get an impossible whopper, you shouldn't expect to be getting, cultivated Burger because the infrastructure to actually produce large amounts of this doesn't yet exist. Like the largest plant of its kind is upside foods.

and it's not in production yet, but still, even once it is, they're not gonna be producing enough to be able to put this on thousands of menus. Rather, it's the type of thing where it's really like a [00:21:00] demonstration pilot scale plant. So even if there is regulatory authority, Taryn, what do you think needs to be done?

Like what actually needs to be done to create a new industry? To mass produce animal cells to the point where it could really make a dent in the number of animals who have raised for food. I mean, even plant-based meat today, despite being on, essentially every grocery store ha carries it now.

it's still only about 1% of the total volume of the meat industry, which is, a very small, it's not even a rounding error in the meat industry. So what will it take for cultivated meat, let's say, to get to 1% of the total meat volume, which would be around a billion or so? . I left on the venture capital funded point on purpose.

because I think that piece is really important is that's really been driving the cultivated meat industry. And you know what? Great job venture capitalists. Thank you. I think that's gonna be very impactful in the future. Related to the regulatory piece, government needs to step up and I really hope that the US government will start investing a lot more, into research, into [00:22:00] science, into infrastructure, around cultivated meat.

Teryn Wolfe: This is a huge priority for food security internationally. and I think it's really important that we have, non venture capital cash, in the cultivated meat industry that's really promoting science and technology and allowing for a lot more innovation. Look, innovation requires a lot of forgiveness because there's a lot of mistakes and sometimes.

Private capital does not allow for that. but grant capital and other types of money can actually really drive innovation and I still feel like that's lacking in this space. It's been really insignificant amounts that have been, channeled through universities and that's great, but you know, those tend to.

Stay within those kind of university bubbles. So I would like to see a lot more money, from different actors outside of venture capital space and cultivated meat industry.

yeah, I'm totally with you, Terri. Like people, I, including myself, are very excited to see government. Funding for this industry starting to trickle in.

Paul Shapiro: And people talk about, uc, Davis, got like three and a half million dollar grant and Tufts got a $10 million grant. And [00:23:00] these sound like big numbers until you start looking at how much the meat industry gets. And like, just, not that long ago, the Biden administration announced a billion dollars just to expand the nation's slaughter cap.

 just so we can slaughter more animals. 1 billion. And that's, just one of numerous federal assistance programs,for the meat industry. And so when I think about like, do you remember the, the Lin scandal? wonder, like the Green New Deal, like Slen was a solar company and they got like a 500 million loan and it.

Paul Shapiro: Bankrupt basically. And it became this like rally and cry, for people who were against renewable energy or for government assistance, for renewable energy. And they were like, oh, Cylindra, they wasted all this money. And I'll sit there and think, how did you know if Cylindra got 500 million? Why can't they cultivate AME companies?

why don't we getting $500 million in government backed loans? That would be great. so anyway, I, the kind of money that's going into renewable energy I think is the kind of money that needs to go into the queen mech space. And unfortunately, we've seen. Nothing like that. We've seen, like [00:24:00] essentially, again, like a rounding error in terms of federal large s or even state large s going to support this despite the enormity of good that it could do for climate and for other environmental, aims that the government has.

so yeah, I think we need, like a real Manhattan project here to help we humanity off of animals as a food source, in the way that we need to wean ourselves off of fossil fuels as an energy source. .

Teryn Wolfe: I agree. so whenever you're ready to start tackling that one, just let me know because , I share the same feelings.

Yeah. yeah.

Paul Shapiro: Oh, go ahead. Go ahead. Thank you. Yeah, so I, I do wanna just, chat briefly then Taryn, about specifically what Matrix Ft is doing because,it's one thing, you know for people to understand that you need micro carriers, that you need a scaffolding in order to grow animal cells, to make something like a three-dimensional meat product that could then be used to, let's say, make a chicken nugget.

But what is. Like you talk about electro spinning, which you know, sounds, like something that might be [00:25:00] like a medieval torture or something, maybe not medieval, but might be like something like torture that you do to like, prisoners to get them to confess to horrible crimes, electro spinning.

but you know, what's electro spinning and what are these carriers made of? You said they're food safe, you said they're edible. Like what are they that you're actually. .

that's really funny. I was about to invite you to the lab afterwards. if we have this chicken nugget tasting, you should come.

Teryn Wolfe: But now I'm like, oh, maybe he doesn't wanna come. Electros spinning does sound really ominous. .

no,I I actually am. I don't know if this is true, but I feel like it's probably true that there is no human who has eaten a greater variety of cultivated meats than I have, I think. so I've eaten, cultivated fish, multiple species.

chicken, Turkey, beef, chorizo, fo gra. like, so many of the companies have been gracious in, in offering me tastings, because of this book, queen Meat that,I have like a personal identity of wanting to try all the products. So I would very much happily come and, witness some electro spinning and get my Ohio chicken nugget.

Paul Shapiro: But [00:26:00] what is it, what are you spinning here, Terran, that becomes a scaffold.

Teryn Wolfe: Okay, so I had briefly mentioned that all of our products are made, with plant-based protein. So we use, very commonly use plant-based proteins in food space. So think corn protein, which is Zane soy pea, algenate, we're experimenting with some other types of plant-based proteins.

and those are the base of the

Paul Shapiro: product. Okay. And for those who aren't initiated, algenate is basically a seaweed extract. Is that what you're getting it from? Correct? . Okay, got it. Yep. So you're using things like soy protein or pea protein plus seaweed extracts. Okay. Let's hear the rest.

Teryn Wolfe: Yep. So these are all really common plant-based proteins.

I guess what's the process look like? just breaking this down, this is, we, these all come as powders. So we make a solution with these plant-based proteins. Those solutions, are then put into a syringe. That syringe may have one needle, may have multiple needles. and then, that will be [00:27:00] connected to, in this, to this machine that has an electrical charge.

and then it shoots out these fibers. Through this electrical charge, and then it's collected on a spinning drum. So those fibers will dry in the air, they're collected on a drum. and then we take off these sheets of scaffolds. and then if they're, we also use electro spraying with a similar technology, which is also within electric charge, but it creates like little, like grains of sand almost.

Teryn Wolfe: So really teeny tiny. Balls. and those are micro carriers, so we have some electro sprayed micro carriers, and then we have some electro sprayed scaffolds. so those processes are our most commonly used processes. electros spinning is a really highly scalable technology. there's been a lot of criticism of this specifically because of the use of plant-based proteins, because they're a little bit slower than other types of polymers, for example, that are like plastics or, not edible, non-edible products.

but I mean, the technology of electros spinning itself is very highly scalable. Think of like, for example, like flame retardant fabrics, like used [00:28:00] for fireman's uniforms. Those are electro fun N 90. , also electro sponge. So this is a really, and clearly those have been scaled up cuz they're all over, like every beach and in every corner and, Yeah,

Paul Shapiro: I, I, yeah, I agree with you, but I, we need some better example because we start talking about flame retardant clothing. It doesn't sound that, that, mouth wedding to me. But, yeah, I think that, I don't know if this is the same type of technology, but think, and correct me if I'm wrong, that Daring Chicken is also using electro spinning for their soy protein-based chicken nuggets.

So it's, This is not a cultivated cell product, it's purely plant-based. but I think there's a company in the Netherlands that has pioneered electro spinning for this particular purpose that they utilize. If I, if what I've read,is correct. but that's cool. So you're basically using electro spinning to create these, let's just say soy algenate combinations that then go into a bioreactor and allow a company like upside foods, let's say, to grow their cells more efficiently.

Is that.

Teryn Wolfe: Yes, that

Paul Shapiro: is correct. Cool. And so were, I don't want to, I don't wanna ruffle any feathers here, but, [00:29:00] like, can you state who were some of your partners in the industry? Cuz you mentioned you have customers, so presumably some of the companies in the space are using your micro carriers or your scaffolds.

So who do you work with?

I cannot say who they are. Okay.

Paul Shapiro: but you have customers who pay you to buy the products that you're.

Teryn Wolfe: Yeah. Yeah, we do.

and

Paul Shapiro: so you're not a, you're not a pre-revenue company is my point.

Teryn Wolfe: So we have, so Matrix has a couple of different revenue streams.

One is a product selling, selling, which are micro carriers and scaffolds. But then, we also offer contract research services and contract development services. And this kind of came through. just talking to other cultivated meat companies and our customers and saying, Hey, what's the best way for us to get to what is our core business, which is an exclusive manufacturing agreement.

So another interesting thing about Matrix products is that not only are they all made with these plant-based proteins and with food safe ingredients, so they're edible, they're also all animal component free. So no gelatins, no animal derived proteins used in any of our products. But they're all customizable.

So if you, for example, go to [00:30:00] the Good Food Institute's, like deep Dive website, they have some amazing research. and the, for example, if you look at their cell lines, their scaffolds or their bioprocess design, they'll all say, look, really, there's no one size fits all for scaffolder or micro carrier.

There has to be some kind of customization that's fit to the type of cell, the process, and also to whatever it is that you want that final. Customer facing food product to be the scaffolder microcar carrier will change that if it's part of that product. so we have a base set of products. and then from there we can customize those base set of products with different proprietary coatings, shapes, size.

there's quite a lot of interesting things that we can do. I think right now most of our customers that are at a. Early stage where they're using something pretty basic. So pretty standard micro carrier, pretty standard scaffold. and they'll probably stick to those for like the first generation of cultivated meat products.

but we also set up these cultivated,or sorry, these contract research services and these contract development services because a lot of companies were just saying, , we have so much to [00:31:00] get done in so little time. We don't have the bandwidth or we're just not sure how to do this. can you just help us with this?

can you do it for us? and we do have our own wet lab, and so we can, so we do either exchange of different starting materials like growth medias and cell lines, or we just do parallel testing with our customers to make sure that we're optimizing a product for them as quickly as possible. That being said, going back to the micro carriers and scaffolds piece, thinking about, who are we working with?

Teryn Wolfe: Another really interesting thing happened in 2022 for us, which is our product is a cell culture food ingredient. So micro carriers and scaffolds and all in their other industries and including in, tissue engineering. there are lots of medical devices that are made with scaffolds, similar, the exact same technology that we use, which is electro spinning.

but really never at the scale and never with the purpose of being. Consumed, right? And so consuming it is not just food safe. It has to taste good and it has to have the right texture, and it has to really contribute to what that final food product is gonna be. So we've always been really focused on let's not just make a product that's good for cell culture that sells the [00:32:00] tier two, and then you grow lots of them, or they turn into what they should be.

Teryn Wolfe: But how does it also make that final product taste good? because I think we've seen this a lot with plant-based meat, where customer, where the general public is. Great. It's fine. The health part, whatever. It's not meat, lower cholesterol, all these great benefits, but it doesn't taste like meat. So there's always this idea of that this is a substitute for the other thing, and they're comparing it to meat and it doesn't have that like tissue like texture.

And I know that is a concern with cultivated meat. As well. How are we gonna get that right? Texture? How are we going to add structure? And that's something that our products can also do. So interestingly, we're working with cultivated meat companies, not only on that, hey, let's get yourselves to work with this product, and then let's figure out how it works well in your final product.

But also how can it add to that overall kind of, unique selling proposition of each product line that you have. and last year we were contacted, A few plant-based companies, and they said, look, we're having issues with our plant-based products. We're trying to get our gen, whatever, a three, four product[00:33:00]

I'm not sure which generation of plant-based products we're in now. and we're trying to get these products onto the market, and we need a more. Tissue like texture. We need springiness, we need that kind of like oils and fats release. we want something that's fibrous. And I think, you mentioned daring.

They're doing an incredible job. I think they do a great job. I've seen so many interesting plant-based products on the market. so one thing that we do at Matrix is. if we see a new plant-based product on the market, we snatch it up, we do tastings, we talk about our product, about their product, and how could we contribute to that?

How can we improve? And not that anything is wrong with these products, but that if the consumer is thinking, I want this to be exactly like meat. How can we actually help turn that plant-based product into something that is more tissue like? and so also thinking of not just cultivated meat with the entire alternative protein industry and using our products a for cultivated meat company, companies as cell culture, food ingredients, but also for plant-based companies as these advanced moisturizers to make sure that they're achieving, that.

Tissue [00:34:00] light, fibrous, stringy texture. that's within meat. And of course, this all coming from a person who has not eaten meat for a very long time.

Paul Shapiro: But that's where we're headed. Right. So that's pretty cool. So you're envisioning being a supplier to both the cultivated and the plant-based sides.

So that then raises the question, Taryn, if one of the huge plant-based meat companies say like Morningstar Farms, right. Came to you and they said, okay, Taryn, we've tried your, we've tried your ingredients. They make our product more meat. Like we love the texture, we wanna put you in our products, which are in tens of thousands of supermarkets.

How quickly could you. To be able to actually supply a company the size of, let's say a morning star, as opposed to, daring, which is of course much smaller. .

. So that's a really good questions, and I think this is the number one thing that we're tackling this year, as an enabling technology, and which is a really hard, problem to tackle, especially in the context of no one really knows when the cultivated meat industry is gonna be regulated.

Teryn Wolfe: So when do you scale and when you do, you prepare to scale what's the right time to spend that money? Right? and it, I, what I can say is it depends on [00:35:00] the product that we have. So we have electros bun products, we have electros paid products. We also use a couple different methods. so we have some extruded and some kind of spins on extrusion.

We also do a kind of like a cast film product. and so there are a lot of different methods. Some of them are more easily scalable than others, but we're also working with a couple different food industry consultant groups who have experience. In scaling these technologies, to say, okay, look, how do we not just scale this process?

This electro sprinting or electro spraying process with our, I think, are the two largest challenges. But,how are we scaling to produce, let's say 90,000 kilos a month? But how do we also make sure that is price accessible as a food ingredient for both cultivated meat and for plant-based?

because that is also a really important piece for us as an enabling technology whose mission is to scale the cultivated meat industry. There's also that price point there. so it's really, we're already thinking about that price piece and how, what exactly is that perfect machine and process that we're gonna have to be able to scale [00:36:00] to that level.

Teryn Wolfe: And I will tell you that the easiest thing for me to answer that question, would probably be for one of those plant-based companies to call me up and say, Hey, Terran, we wanna buy 90,000 kilos a month. So if you know what you, Morningstar,

Paul Shapiro: I'd be happy. maybe somebody from Morningstar is listening right now.

but for other people, Taryn, who are listening right now, and they're thinking, Hey, you know what a cool story, I love that this person was so motivated to help animals and now she's running her own company to try to make the animal free protein industry more successful. They want to just be more like you.

Paul Shapiro: Let's say, were there anything that was helpful for you in this journey? Any resources that you would recommend, whether books or otherwise turn that you think, Hey, this is really useful for me in my journey. I recommend it to you as well. .

Teryn Wolfe: Sure. I think, specifically related to Matrix, there are a few incredible resources out there that are, in terms of the technical side that are driving the cultivated min meat industry.

Like, new [00:37:00] Harvest, the Good Food Institute. They have incredible technical resources. But, my team has been incredible. I can't tell you how much time I spent, and I'm one of those people that, wakes up at four 30 in the morning. Thinking about like, but what about this particular thing and how this happens?

so I'll send like very technical questions to my team at four 30 and for some reason they respond. , was like, you guys don't feel obligated. Right. Don't feel obligated to respond to this.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah. it's a contr, it's a controversial issue whether CEOs should be, sending these late night emails.

I know. in, I forget, there's some Latin American country. I don't remember which one that actually, by law prohibits, I'll look at it. I'll include this in the show notes at, at business for good podcast.com so that people don't think I'm just making this up. But there is some Latin American country that I read about that prohibits executives from emailing, staff members, off hours because of the, the feeling that, you have to respond.

I, I'm somebody who works seven days a week. but I also, I will tell you, I. Been trained to often on weekends, just queue up emails to colleagues Yeah. To send at, at like 8:00 AM Monday morning . anyway, sorry. [00:38:00] So you're, you're emailing people at 4:30 AM They're responding.

Paul Shapiro: They wanna make sure that, that they're working. Okay. Go on. I, maybe that has something to do with it, but you know, I think it's also that they're also thinking about these things and they're so great at responding to these really challenging questions and really digging deep and doing the research behind it.

Teryn Wolfe: And I learned so much from our technical team. so I mean, on the technical side, like they are. My best teachers and mentors,is our team. And of course, we learn a lot from our customers. I think we're very much on the cutting edge of what's happening in this industry, and we get to see so much of what companies are doing.

And so we have a very interesting perspective of, what's the process, what's the technical part, what's the innovation that all of these companies, are driving? and I mean, that may, that's really on the technical side. I love this industry and I think it's incredible where it's going.

It's just crazy the amount of technology that you see. and it's also very humbling. Like you think you're smart until you go listen to a PhD from the Cultivated mean industry Show present their latest paper, right? ? [00:39:00]

Paul Shapiro: Yeah. it help te taran, I'll tell you, it helps if you just don't think you're smart, which is what I, my strategy, just accept that you're stupid and that you try to surround yourself with people who are a lot smarter.

And speaking of stupid, I, I feel stupid cuz I just Googled which country had banned bosses from emailing staff members. And it turns out it's not a Latin American country, it's Portugal. and so I'll include a link to that. Maybe there was also a Latin American country that did this, but it is in Portugal apparently.

Legal to do. but, I wanna ask you also, Taryn, because you're somebody who's done quite a lot of things, like you started your own company in Columbia, you started your own nonprofit organization, now you're running a company that was started by somebody else. surely somebody who has this serial entrepreneurial streak that you have and your personality has thought about, other ideas that you hope will be in the world.

presumably you're gonna be. Matrix FT for some time. So are there any other ideas for companies that you wish that somebody else would start that could do some good in the world, that you're wanna put it out there to the universe now the [00:40:00] universe got your son, his passport. Maybe they'll get whoever is gonna hear you say this following recommendation to start the following company.

Yes. And I'm one of those people where, you go to the party and everybody's talking about what they watched on Netflix or some series, and I'm talking about that idea to solve this problem. This is just what motivates me. This is a thing that I care about. That's why I'm messaging people at four 30 in the morning, not because I'm a crazy boss, but because I genuinely care.

Teryn Wolfe: I really do, and these are the things I think about. And, my, I love work. I love solving these problems, and that is really what has motivated me. and I think, ideas to change the world. I don't think we've even scratched the surface of technology for, People's wellbeing for wellbeing, for, environmental protection, like you name the problem.

it's shocking to me that we have Uber and we have like all these like door dashes and wraps and all these really highly technological things like just to get people a pizza. quicker, right? But there's still hunger and why [00:41:00] aren't we harnessing any of that, to solve these issues? Because it's not really an issue of that.

Teryn Wolfe: We don't have the technology and we don't have the capital. It's just really the distribution of those ideas. And then who is the benefit going to? so I think, that, it would be great to see a lot of these ideas channeled, to more of the, these really pressing problems that we have.

I think technology is a really important piece. there, to make sure that we're getting services to people who really need it until all these like very, tough issues that we're facing today that are really just getting worse.

I hope that somebody can figure out how to make money doing, what you're just saying.

it's, it's easy to see how you can make money by getting somebody a pizza faster. so let's see if somebody can make money taking the suggestions that you have just made to, help people with better lives. We'll see. but. Terran. It's really a pleasure to talk with you. Congratulations again on the first ever Ohio cultivated chicken nugget.

Paul Shapiro: I hope to be there, see some electro spinning, eat some soy algenate, and enjoy a nice cultivated chicken nugget with you sometime. But in the meantime, please know I'll be rooting [00:42:00] for your success and I hope that if we connect, again, it will be in person and we can dine on some animal free protein together.

Teryn Wolfe: Likewise, and I will show you our electros spinning torture chamber. Ha, .

Paul Shapiro: Very good. I promise I won't take photos and expose this, the horrible things that all were doing. Thank you again. Great

Teryn Wolfe: to Paul. Thank you.