Paul Shapiro: [00:00:00] Toni, welcome back to the Business for Good Podcast. Thank you so much for having me. It is a pleasure to have you back on the show. You are one of the very few guests who has repeated their performance on the show because we had you as a guest more than 50 episodes ago to talk about when you were releasing your last book.

So I, I think that you are one of a rarefied group of people who have been on. Repeat guest. I know John Mackey, the ceo, former CEO of Whole Foods, has been on twice. Kimberly Lee, the, CEO of Prime Roots and, and now Tony Okamoto.

Toni Okamoto: No. Well, I'm honored to be among. A few amazing people .

yeah, they're pretty cool people too.

but you're really, this is not really like your second time on the show. It's really like your 22nd time on the show. Since the first 20 episodes of the show is longtime. Listeners will remember, we're co-hosted by you. So welcome back Tony for your 22nd appearance on the Business for Good

Toni Okamoto: podcast.

Thank you, and thanks for holding the podcast. You've gotten much, much better since I left. I love, I love all the [00:01:00] guests you've brought on, and you're so smart and thoughtful in your question asking, so I'm glad to be here

Paul Shapiro: chatting with you. Well, that's very nice. I'm sure people don't want to hear us praising each other.

so let me just start out by saying the following. So first of all, you know, the last time you were on, I had said, you know, somebody said to me that they were an in. I would've thought it meant like you have no job, right? That's it. Like you have some other source of income or revenue or something somewhere else in your life and you don't have a job.

Paul Shapiro: But you told us that actually many influencers make a very lucrative living. And you still don't introduce yourself as one though. What do you introduce yourself at before? You said I'm an author now. Is that still what you say? A couple years later? Yes.

Toni Okamoto: I'm, I'm still an author. That's how I introduce myself,

Paul Shapiro: So why, I mean, being an author is definitely not even close to the largest source of your revenue streams at plant based on budget. So why say you're an author instead of something else? It's

Toni Okamoto: something that people understand. I can be writing in an Uber or chatting with someone and they'll know what an author is.

They'll know that I work hard [00:02:00] and that I produce something tangible. But if I were to say I, I was an influencer, that could really mean anything. I could have a whole YouTube channel devoted to farts and spitting on people and pranking people, and that's so not what I.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah. Well, first, as, as you know, I, I do, follow YouTube channels that are focused on pranks.

Not really on farts, but we do have a neighbor whose son is a, fart influencer on YouTube. And, we met him. And how much, I mean, he, he, all he does is make YouTube videos about farts or how much was he making? 10 to

Toni Okamoto: $12,000 a month. Yeah.

Paul Shapiro: Right. So the guy's making a six figure salary a year, just putting part videos on YouTube.

That's not what I subscribe to. I. Watching the prank videos on YouTube. But yeah, you do something pretty different, I guess. So, you call yourself an author. so you have this new book, and it's based on the work that you do on plant-based on a budget, on the website and in the social media channels,

Toni Okamoto: right?

Yes. It's called Plant-Based on a Budget. Quick and

Paul Shapiro: Easy. Quick and [00:03:00] easy. Okay, so people want to get plant based on a budget. Quick and easy. How can they do so? Tony?

Toni Okamoto: They can do so at plant-based on a budget cookbook.com. All right,

Paul Shapiro: so we'll link to that of the show notes at business for good podcast.com.

But if you just can't wait to get It Plant based on a budget, cookbook.com is where you can go get this book. We're gonna talk all about the book a little bit later, including how it's different from your cookbook to cookbooks ago, which is just plant based on a budget. So get ready to answer. So, you know, just for the.

Tony doesn't know any of the questions that are gonna be asked. Isn't that right? That's true. Right. In fact, I asked Tony, do you want to know any of the questions? And you said, no, thank you. Right, exactly. So, probably because it would be better for our, our marriage just to do it and not debate these.

In fact, the reason why Tony, Ceased being a co-host of this podcast really had to do with this. I was going on a book tour. , well, maybe your memory. My, my memory is that it was better for Marital Harmony . but yes, your, our, our, our Life Together has been punctuated by numerous book tours that you have done, including right after our wedding when you went on a book tour four years ago.

And. [00:04:00] We, never went on a honeymoon, and then we finally just did as listeners of this show know from here in the past couple episodes, we did go on honeymoon, so congratulations to us four years later.

Toni Okamoto: Yeah. And shout out to Paul for. Being very patient and supportive while I worked on, promoting this cookbook while on our four years late honeymoon

Paul Shapiro: Yeah, that's true. I was actually quite pleased. I was a little bit nervous that you were not going to, want to work as much as I was going to, and I thought it'd be like some tension if, I was working too much on the honeymoon, but I was grateful that you had this. Launch going so that you would need more time during the honeymoon to work.

I'm honestly, this is the truth. but anyway, I'm psyched for this new book. I know you've worked very hard on it. I've seen you, we're gonna talk all about the book creation stuff a little bit later, but first I just wanna ask you, you know, a very basic question. How many plant based cookbooks are there out there?

Oh,

Toni Okamoto: countless. Countless, right?

Paul Shapiro: Thousands, right? Definitely more. Okay. And how many free recipes are there on just your website alone? Almost a [00:05:00] thousand. Okay. So you know where I'm going

Toni Okamoto: with this. Mm-hmm. . I have two websites by the way, and on both of them there are many ,

Paul Shapiro: right? So, so why should anybody pay for this book when there are thousands of cookbooks out there already, and when you have thousands of free recipes available for these same very people?

Toni Okamoto: Well, people like to hold something in the kitchen. They want to have food splattered all over it, and they want to write their notes in it. That's how I learned how to cook, even though there were re free recipes online, and I know that my audience wants this from me because it's also more polished with plant-based on a budget free recipes.

They are tested by me. Then they go to Alfonso and they're tested. This

Paul Shapiro: is Alfonso River.

Toni Okamoto: Yes, he is Alfonso Revia. He is, Staff, food photographer for plant based on a budget. And he's, also the photographer for my new cookbook and, and,

Paul Shapiro: and an all

Toni Okamoto: around great guy. Definitely, definitely , but with a cookbook that I'm writing, [00:06:00] it has a very rigorous testing process with 100 people testing the recipes.

I, I have each recipe tested five times and you pay for. Quality control. You pay for beautiful photography, notes from not only me, but from my recipe testers. And it's a much more polished

Paul Shapiro: experience. Yeah. I know that when you were doing all the recipe testing, you're getting, really, constructive criticism, from many of the testers coming back to you, who are saying, you know, they liked this recipe, but here are all the problems with it.

And I, I think that my mom tested some recipes for you even. Right. She's

Toni Okamoto: my harshest, my harshest. Hmm.

Paul Shapiro: What, what was the harshest thing that she said to you?

Toni Okamoto: Oh, one time she said that something was inedible and it was so bad that she couldn't even give it to her dogs, that she had to toss it in the backyard for the insects to eat.

Hmm,

Paul Shapiro: interesting. Oh, I bet the insects liked it. yeah, so it's a very rigorous testing process. I know I was a volunteer test. for at least two or three of these recipes that are in here. So you're basically getting like the [00:07:00] cream of the crop with these recipes. Okay.

Toni Okamoto: Also, Paul's mom and I are very cool.

She's the nicest lady and I love her dearly . I know she listens to this podcast, Jolene. Love you big time, and I appreciate your feedback.

Paul Shapiro: All right, so let, let's talk about the book a little bit later on. I do want to get back to this issue about the business of being an influencer because I was looking up some things and, you know, I was thinking like when I was a kid, My friends and I, we wanted to be things like firefighters or astronauts.

But now influencer is among the most desired career paths for children and young adults. And so one poll found that 54% of Americans aged 13 to 38 would become an influencer if given the chance. And another poll found that of 3000 kids. If in the US and the uk if choosing between a teacher, a professional athlete, a musician, an astronaut, or a.

A third of them ranked YouTuber as their top choice. Do you think this is healthy ? Like, why do all these kids wanna be influencers?

Toni Okamoto: You know, I, I was actually chatting [00:08:00] with a friend and her kid was really into cooking and she was considering allowing her to start a YouTube channel. And I said that I do not recommend it for young kids.

I do not think that we should open up the whole world. Critique and criticize, young, young kids who care very deeply about what people think about

Paul Shapiro: them. Yeah, so I mean, the, the criticism can be harsh online of course, as you have found repeatedly. but there is like a lot of money to be made. I mean, you know, I was reading an article on Vox and they said that a micro influencer, which is defined as somebody with 10 to 50,000 followers can earn anywhere between 40 grand to a hundred grand per year.

And influencer. Who have like a million or more followers can earn tens of thousands of dollars per post. Just per post. So I mean, I've seen these stories about kids, you know, who are like video game influencers, like, you know, 10 years old and they're just playing video games, , and they're making more money than their parents are.

So why discourage them? ,

Toni Okamoto: [00:09:00] I would like to say that before you make a lot of money, you make no money and, and in my experience, I had plant-based on a budget for many years before it became lucrative. And so it's not an overnight success story for most influencers. It's a lot of hard work. consistency over a long period of

Paul Shapiro: time.

Okay, so I, I take it when I was saying that like my friends and I wanted to be a astronauts or firefighters that you presume we did not want to be an influencer when you were a kid.

Toni Okamoto: I, I didn't even know when I was an adult that I wanted to be having this

Paul Shapiro: job. What did you want

Toni Okamoto: to be? Well, when I was younger, I wanted to be a doctor.

And then when I was older, I knew I wanted to work in animal welfare, so I was working for, non non-profits in the animal welfare space prior to running plant-based on a budget full-time. . So

Paul Shapiro: basically while you were working in the non-profit space, you started this [00:10:00] blog? Mm-hmm. on the side? Mm-hmm. . Why?

Because

Toni Okamoto: I wanted to help people, especially my family, who was suffering from all types of diet related health issues, know that money should not be an obstacle when eating healthy and plant-based.

with money being an obstacle for a lot of people right now, especially with inflation and rising food costs, I would imagine.

Paul Shapiro: This is a better economic prospect for, you know, companies like Plant-based on a budget, right? Like basically there's some companies that do well in recessions, right? Like more people were gonna go shop at Walmart rather than Whole Foods during a recession. Has that been the same for you? Are you seeing an uptake of interest given inflation and rising food costs?

Toni Okamoto: Definitely. There is more of an interest, in for people who want to save money, eat healthier. not only are we in a recession, There is so much information in the mainstream media about the benefits of plant-based eating. Doctors are recommending it for people who have type two diabetes and high cholesterol.

[00:11:00] And and so overall people have been more interested in plant-based on a budget in the past year or

Paul Shapiro: so. . Okay. well, I'm, I'm glad to hear that, not that people need it, but glad to hear that it's, you know, there's a silver lining here and that it's better for your business and that people are getting more and more interested.

But let's just talk briefly about the sources of revenue because, and being an author is not the primary way that plant based on a budget brings in revenue. So, you know, a lot of the times people think about, you know, a blog or they think about, you know, somebody having a brand and, they either don't comprehend how it can be monetized.

or maybe they just think that having a lot of followers leads to a book deal and that's how you bring the revenue. But tell people what, how does plant-based on a budget actually make money?

Toni Okamoto: I make the majority of my money on sponsored content. I don't want to make the majority of my money on sponsored content. It is active work and basically I have someone full-time on my staff who works with brands for me to create content for them. [00:12:00] We put, information about them in our newsletter, or I create a recipe that's custom with their product or I.

film a whole reel and post it on my social media channels as an ambassador for their company. And at the end of the day, I feel like I'm working for them. I am a, a contractor for their company and they provide the deadline, they provide the materials they want me to use, and, what I would like to do, and this is my next stream of, of money, but for some content creators, especially food bloggers and other blog.

ad revenue is totally passive. It's what lives on their blog. It's what makes everybody angry. I get about one to two emails per week about all of the ads and the popups that come up on their website, and it's also the reason that there's so much front content. Before you get to the recipe, you'll get a whole story of how to.[00:13:00]

Mix and match ingredients or how the origin story, and I know people don't like that, but it's how, bloggers make money.

Paul Shapiro: So, you know, for those of you who go to recipe sites, like basically what you'll see is you may think, oh, I just searched on Google for, you know, how to make vegan pancakes. and I got there.

Instead of getting a vegan pancake recipe, I got like, you know, Tony's biography and you know how much she loves her family. And then finally, you know, like 500 words later, I'm getting to the vegan pancake recipe. And you're saying that that's not just to annoy people. There's some ads that are there that you people were seeing first, and that's why

Toni Okamoto: you do it.

Yes. There are many ads and 500, that's a short blog post right there. 500 words. Yeah. 500 words. Mm-hmm. , it would probably be more like a thousand. Minimum. Some people do like 3000 and they do that because every one to two paragraphs you get to pick. Some people even choose three. There will be an ad and you get paid based on the [00:14:00] impressions of the ad

Paul Shapiro: and, and so if you put a jump link at the top that says, jump here to see the recipe, do you lose all the ad revenue there?

Toni Okamoto: Different techniques around that. there's called the jump to arrival, which you press the jump and it takes you to an ad before you get to see the recipe. So that's how a lot of people get around that and still, Monetize. I

Paul Shapiro: got it. So there's basically active income, like you're filming a reel for a company that has sponsored you, and then there's passive income, which is basically you get enough traffic to your website that the ads start really paying a lot.

Toni Okamoto: It's not completely passive because there's all this strategy that you have to put in place before you get. The clicks from Google, but,

you mean strategy you'd like to maximize your seo, your search engine optimization?

Toni Okamoto: Yes, yes. I've had my website rebuilt. I've had, different consultations with experts who give input on ways I can better maximize [00:15:00] the, my place in the algorithm on Google.

And it is a lot of energy and money. . Then after you do all of that, you have a better chance. Creating substantial passive

Paul Shapiro: income, substantial meaning five figures per month.

Toni Okamoto: I'll tell you what I know is possible. This is definitely not what I make, but I have blogger friends who make about a million per year or more just on passive, just on their ad

Paul Shapiro: revenue.

Right. You know, it's interesting. We were, we were just, talk, I was just talking about this with my father. Like if, you know, if you're married to a blogger who has that type of revenue when they die, That's all new income that's gonna be coming in for months, if not years in the future. Right? And so it's like, you know, what happens to that?

Does that, you know, if there's not a will that determines where that's gonna go, what happens? Why

Toni Okamoto: are you talking about this ? Oh, so conveniently just

Paul Shapiro: talking about, yeah, I just wanna make sure that we're squared away on this cuz as you make more [00:16:00] money on your revenue, you know, on your ad revenue no, but I mean, you know, this passive, this passive income has LA allowed a lot of these bloggers that you've told me about.

Just to retire, basically. Like they just live on, on this, on, on this ad revenue on their website. It's incredible.

Toni Okamoto: Yes. Because even if you stop working and you stop focusing on, on it and say you, lose 50% of your traffic, you're still making $500,000 per year. Right. And that's a lot of money for a family.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah. So how many people are working at plant based on a budget? . There are a total of five of us. There's five. Okay. So when you were just deciding that you were gonna start this blog, and then fast forward to when you started to do it full-time, is this what you envisioned? Like are you now, have you realized the vision that you had back then, or have you exceeded it or you still have other aspirations that you haven't met yet?

Well,

Toni Okamoto: this book is a really big. A milestone for me, hopefully. it is the book that I have cared about the most and I've also had the most resources [00:17:00] for promotion, for making it everything I wanted to be, wanted it to be. And I have big, big, giant lofty goals. And it, they're even scary to think, but what are they?

I would love to hit some best sellers. There are, a few in particular like the New York Times bestseller list, and it's a curated list, so you really never know if you're going to make it. You can sell 30,000 copies your first week and not make the list while another book has 4,000 copies and make the list.

But

Paul Shapiro: why? Why do they even call it the best sellers list if it's not truly who the best sellers? , I'm not sure , because what you're saying is this curated, meaning they're not just looking at book sales, they're actually, you know, picking, they're picking the winners. They say, oh yeah, this person had 10 times more sales than you did, but we're gonna call them a bestseller.

Toni Okamoto: There are a lot of books consistently on the list that cell [00:18:00] far more books than anyone else. Like Atomic Habits has been number one for, I think my agent said something. 147 weeks or something like that. Hmm. or, or on the list oftentimes at number one, and they do sell 30, 40,000 copies per week.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah.

And to be clear, the first week sales is when a book is most likely to hit because you get all the pre-orders counting in that first week. This is why authors always say, please pre-order my book because they. To basically have all the pre-orders count toward that first week sales to maximize their chance of getting on the list.

So when does your book come out? March 7th. March 7th, 2023. And this podcast is gonna air on March 1st, 2023. So we'll see how many pre-orders we can gin up

Toni Okamoto: for you here. Thank you. And another thing to note is that they're looking for diverse sales, so. Books, your book sales can't come from only one retailer or two retailers like Barnes and Noble and [00:19:00] Amazon.

They also have to come from Target and Walmart and independent bookstores and. and that all factors in, into whether or not you make the

Paul Shapiro: list. It's so stupid. . Why does it matter? They're just gonna say it's a bestseller list. If everybody buys it at Amazon, what does it matter? It's still the bestseller.

It needs to come from a, a variety of places. I mean, it seems like. Just, they oughta call the West something else. It'll be like books that we really like. The way that they sold them rather than the best hours list. Is that the way that they all are? Or just the New York Times West Hours

Toni Okamoto: list? they're all different.

Actually. There is the USA Today, which is based on sales and that's now on hiatus. It was something that people could aspire to For book sales only, or, yeah, book sales only. But in December, I think they had a layoff that put their. list

Paul Shapiro: on hiatus. Interesting, huh? Okay. Well anyway, we'll be rooting for you.

I know that, my life will be much better if you make the New York Times so sour list cuz you'll be so [00:20:00] happy. I think my life will be worse if you don't though. Yeah. So everybody go out and buy this book. . you're gonna say something? Nope. Okay. You look like you were gonna say something. okay. So why should people buy this book?

W if they already have the other one, if they already have plant-based on a budget, now there's plant-based on a budget. Quick and easy, like what's the

Toni Okamoto: difference? When I came out with plant-based on a budget, I was very, very strapped for cash and I had a lot of time to cook from scratch. I showed people with that book how to make.

their own bread, how to make their own pizza dough. I show people and encourage them to cook their beans from scratch, which can take a couple hours on stove. And now in life I have very, very, very little time. I'm still very budget conscious, but I'm in a position to decide where I wanna make compromises.

Toni Okamoto: And with this book, I show that I show how you can. Lean on canned beans, lean on the $2 50 [00:21:00] cent pre-made pizza dough from Trader Joe's instead of making it from scratch.

Paul Shapiro: So basically the last book was plant based on a money Budget, and this one is plant based on a time budget. Yes, I

Toni Okamoto: want people to maximize the efficiency in the kitchen and not spend any time that they don't need to be spending cooking.

All

Paul Shapiro: night . Okay. have you noticed that your own life has changed? Like, you know, you went from, somebody, as you described the last time we did an interview together as somebody who really had very, very modest financial means to somebody now who's running a successful business that's profitable.

have you noticed your own cooking style has changed? Like are you still, I mean, I remember going to the supermarket with you and you would like literally bring a cup measurer to like measure from the bulk bin to make sure you didn't get more than you needed. I don't see you bringing the cup measure around with you anymore.

Paul Shapiro: So have you personally shifted as your own economic situation has modified to being more on a time budget than a money budget? Most

Toni Okamoto: definitely. I used to cook from, I used to cook everything from scratch [00:22:00] and then I would say the biggest thing that has. , and this happened because of the Pan Pandemic, is that I got an Instacart subscription and now I very rarely go to the grocery store.

Mm-hmm. , I used to love it. Paul used to be my companion, unwillingly sometimes where I would go up and down every aisle looking at all of the sales and. taking my time and now I don't, I don't go very often.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah, I know like if we travel somewhere together, like one of, one of your hobbies is to go walk through supermarkets, even if you don't buy anything, just to go walk through them and look at what all the prices are.

even on a honeymoon, we did that and we marveled at the prices of foods in Hawaii, which are dramatically more expensive than they are here on, on the mainland .

Toni Okamoto: Yes. I think it's important for me to know what people in different places are spending on.

Paul Shapiro: Groceries. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. okay, so I want to just ask you, this question.

I was thinking more [00:23:00] about, you know, this word of influencer and, you know, you talked about some of the revenue streams, like, you know, you've got the books, you've got the passive income, the active income. you didn't mention though the, the meal plans, which I know are really what got you started with revenue or they still a big part of it.

People were downloading meal plans from the website. Not as

Toni Okamoto: much as they used to be. They really. They're placed in my life in 20 17, 20 18, around the time what the health hit, Netflix. And, I was featured in that documentary for my meal plans. So around that time, it really, really blew up for me. It still provides passive income, but not what it used to.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah, I remember that you very quickly had like 15,000 subscribers to your meal plans. These are people who are paying like a minimum of $5 to download a, a PDF of the meal plans that you were offering.

Toni Okamoto: Yes. I worked on that sh project with my friend Michelle Kane, and we actually have a lot of different.

Projects that we work on together [00:24:00] now, like our podcast, which provides, a stream of revenue and our cookbook, the Friendly Vegan

Paul Shapiro: cookbook. Yeah. So your last cookbook was the Friendly Vegan Cookbook, and then you mentioned the podcast was another stream of revenue. So you and Michelle do this podcast and there's ads on that as well, so that you're getting revenue.

So it's a really multifaceted revenue stream. Like there's like half a dozen sources of revenue that are coming in. So, . You know, you could say like, if Instagram ever goes the way of MySpace, that you still have these other things,

Toni Okamoto: right? Yes. And I did that purposely. I did a big, I did all of my hiring in 2020 in February, and then in March, 2020, a lot of my sponsored content dried up because we were in a global pandemic and companies were not sure of supply chain issues or.

it. They just had so many different concerns, and even if we were in contract, they just said, sorry, we're not going to honor our contract. We have no idea what's happening. And so I had hired [00:25:00] four people, no, three people, and lost all of my money that I planned on using to pay those people. And so that's when I decided to.

Be more thoughtful in making sure that I have a lot of different streams of income and a really big savings so that I can pay for six months of not making money with my primary income

Paul Shapiro: source. Right, and you mean plant-based on a budget's treasury being the savings, not personally in your own personal bank account?

Yes.

Toni Okamoto: I plan based on a budget as a business I. Right. But keep my finances separate.

Paul Shapiro: Right? Yeah. I just wanna make sure when you say savings, that you mean the, the company's savings. Yep. it's really incredible to me what you've built. I mean, when we started dating, you were, you weren't making any money from this.

It was just, you know, your side. passion project that you were doing to now being a successful, profitable business with, you know, five people working there and, bring in, pretty substantial revenue. And so I saw this [00:26:00] tweet from, Seth Bannon, who is a venture capitalist who we both know. And I want to ask your opinion of it because I, I saw it and I didn't want to be provocative and respond to it, but he tweeted recently.

I'm quoting him. Can we stop calling influencers, creators? They're entertainers, creators are people who actually build things. So what would you say to Seth? Are you a entertainer or are you a creator?

Toni Okamoto: I'm definitely a creator. I am a podcaster. I create video content online. My content is seen by millions of people per.

And I have built a company from nothing. I employ people, I help them feed their families, buy houses, and I, I definitely consider myself more of a creator than an

Paul Shapiro: entertainer. Interesting. so I was looking at the Subtweets who were commenting on Seth's tweet, and, many of them were supportive of his point of view, but one of them I thought would resonate a little bit more.

the person wrote L m a. Laughing my ass [00:27:00] off. Tell me you don't understand the creator economy without saying it. . so I, I thought, well, I know that that wasn't you writing it, but it may as well have been you. Right? I, I would

Toni Okamoto: not publicly write that, but I, I do think that when I hear something. With that similar sentiment, it makes me believe they don't understand, and maybe they don't have a, an intimate relationship with anybody who is a, a creator with a solid online business.

Paul Shapiro: Right. Okay. Well, there are a ton of these people out there who are creators with solid online businesses, and it seems like the number of plant-based or vegan creators out there is just, you know, mushrooming. It's, it's really, incredible. So how do you stay. You know, plant based owner budget has been around for about a decade now as a very large following on Instagram and on Facebook and your email list.

There's a ton of people who are following you, but they have lots of other options that they can follow as well. so how do you actually remain relevant in a increasingly crowded [00:28:00] space?

Toni Okamoto: I collaborate a lot with my friends who are also creators in this space. We just had a big retreat in Mexico where for five.

We talked about the best strategies, the best sources of, income that we should be trying out. There are so many opportunities and many of them are untapped by each of us. And so to learn about them, to also know how much people are charge charging so that we can stay, relevant and all on the same playing field.

Has been so immensely helpful and important in the growth of my business.

Paul Shapiro: It almost sounds like collusion. It, it's like, you know, all these people who are going around to the same companies seeking PO sponsorships from them talking about what they're charging, so they make sure that they're citing around the same prices.

am I getting that wrong? .

Toni Okamoto: Well, I will say that before I started making friends in this space, I undercharged by far, I didn't realize that everyone [00:29:00] else was making 3, 4, 5, 6 times more than I was making You mean, for sponsored content? Like for a post? Yes. Sorry. for a sponsored content and, having learned that I'm able to work smarter and not harder.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah, I guess it, you know it when prices are not, You know, it's one thing if like, you know, competing ice cream companies are colluding to keep prices high. it's another thing when prices aren't public at all. If you don't talk to your so-called competitors, you wanna make sure that you're not underselling yourself here.

so there is this, I, I wouldn't say a secret club, but there is a club of many of the biggest plant-based influencers that's going on retreats to Mexico to talk about their influence and how they can become more influential is. ,

Toni Okamoto: well you said competitors and I think of it more as the, my collaborators.

We are all in this together trying to help people eat more plant-based meals. And it's not like they're taking my bottom from my bottom line. [00:30:00] We are all able to promote each other and help each other and, in. help people eat more plant-based. Nice.

so how's your life changed? You know, like you've gone from, just starting a company where you really weren't sure what was gonna happen or whether it would be, successful or not, to now being the CEO of this small business that.

Paul Shapiro: Unlike the venture-backed companies, is actually profitable. You know, a lot of these venture backed companies, they take money from investors and they tell them in the future that they're gonna become profitable. So it'll become a good bet, whereas you've never taken money from outside investors, you've never put any of your own money in just through revenue generation alone, you've created this business that has given you like some amount of, at least internet fame.

So how has it changed your life? Like, is it different for you now when you go out? what do you do differently than you did? ,

Toni Okamoto: my rollout plan based on a budget has changed dramatically. I now run the business as a CEO and I make sure I meet with all of the people who actually create the [00:31:00] content to support them and make sure that our vision is aligned.

I have someone who runs social media. I have a photographer. I have someone who runs support for my Facebook group, and I have someone who works with brands, and then I am, I am the. The,

you're the face and I am more of the face now. I run our podcast, I write books and I do things that only I, I can do. Yeah.

yeah. I mean, I know like if we go to a vegan restaurant in some city, like it has happened more than once. People come up to you and they generally hand me their phone and say, can I take, can I take a photo of you with them?

but I know, like you don't even, you usually, you know, wouldn't even post where you are while you're there. Right,

Toni Okamoto: right. I've had some experiences where people show up or want to show up. They, they say I'll be right there. so I have become much [00:32:00] more private online, and I am. Always very extremely flattered when people come up to me.

It's happened at the airport, at Disneyland, at all these really random places, and I feel so honored and grateful for. This being

Paul Shapiro: my life. Yeah. I, I, I will confess that as you know, I've, recently been really enjoying Mark Rob's content. He's another influencer who does like science, YouTube stuff, and, he lives in Northern California.

So I, I secretly hope that I will run into him one time, and I get to go and get my photo taken with him. cuz I, I love his channel. It's really, really awesome content. so, and I'll include if you are interested in, in Mark Rober, I, I know that, some of the listeners. We're, when I've been talking to them, I've mentioned that they should listen to him or watch his videos and they're like, how?

And you just found out about him, like he's getting like tens of millions of views. You know, he quit his job in NASA to do this as an influencer and he is making awesome content.

Toni Okamoto: Yeah. And he's sponsored by huge [00:33:00] companies like.

Paul Shapiro: Bows. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's really incredible. Anyway, we'll link to his stuff to Mark Rover stuff and, the show notes at Business for Good podcast, podcast.com.

Tony, what are you aspiring to now? Like, obviously you said that you wanna be a New York Times bestseller, made that come true. but if you're looking at the next 10 years, like, you know, 10 years ago you would hardly be able to fathom what plant based on a budget is today. So 10 years from now, what do you think or hope it.

Toni Okamoto: the con, the algorithm is constantly changing and I want to make sure I am able to stay on top of that. Who knows what the next TikTok will be or the next, brand new social media platform. I feel like there is always something new that I need to be staying on top of, and I want to stay relevant. I want to bring on people who are really passionate about helping people eat plant-based.

also, it's very extremely important for me to take care of the people who've been with me the whole time. Like, I have, like I mentioned [00:34:00] for other people, three of whom have been my first employees. So I, I care about them so much and hope that they stay with the company. forever.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah. I I, I certainly hope that too.

When you think about the impact that you're having, like obviously Plant-based on the budget is a for-profit company, with the mission. The mission is to help people eat plant-based for less money. And you hear from people I know on a very regular basis. For him, it has made a big difference. So they've transformed their life.

You have guests on your podcast, you, you know, say they've lost hundreds of pounds, or you get people who, just have made really transformational changes in their life. So anecdotally, like we know that this is having an impact as you're reaching millions of people and, Subset of them make changes to be, to eat more plant-based and therefore have a lighter footprint on the planet and animals and, and their health.

but have you thought about ways to measure your impact? Like obviously you hear from people who say that you're having an impact on them, but have you thought about [00:35:00] whether there might be ways that you can determine whether you're meeting the mission of the company or not? To reduce the number of, meat-based meals that are being consumed in exchange for plant-based?

Paul Shapiro: I would love

Toni Okamoto: to learn about how, if anyone has any ideas of how I can measure, that would be fantastic, but I don't have anything more than hearing from people on a regular basis. And I celebrate every meal that's

Paul Shapiro: plant-based. Yeah, I mean, presumably you could be doing surveys, right, of your followers. I don't know what, you know, sometimes people don't tell the truth in surveys, but you could ask them if, if, you know, if seeing your content has modified their dietary behavior.

Toni Okamoto: yes. That would rely on people taking the time out of their very, very, extremely busy schedule. But I, I have done surveys. I have not asked that question, but I've been able to learn other very interesting facts about my audience in that way. Mm-hmm. .

Paul Shapiro: Okay. Cool. Well, a, as you know, Tony, we end every interview on this show with the same [00:36:00] two questions that I will now pose to you.

So the first is, what resources, if any, have been useful for you? If somebody's interested in doing what you. Are there any resources that you would recommend for them, whether books, podcast, speeches, anything that you think they should check

Toni Okamoto: out? If anyone is interested in food blogging content or food creation, there is a fantastic podcast and course called Food Blogger Pro and it's.

An immense wealth of knowledge. They bring on every big time creator, and they share very transparently how they've built their business.

Paul Shapiro: Cool. And I, I know that, you've been listening to Food Blogger Pro Podcast for a very long time. Mm-hmm. , so it's a big deal that recently you were one of the big time creators who they brought on as a guest.

So you can go check out, we link to it in our, episode. If you wanna listen to more of Tony talking about her business with them and, and how she makes money, then you can go check out her [00:37:00] episode on Food Blogger Pro. any other resources that you would recommend? . Oh, okay. I'll take your silence as none.

Okay. Finally then, the last time that you were on the show, and I asked you this question about what companies you wanted to be created that don't yet exist, and you said, well, you know, somebody is gonna do plant-based meat for cheaper than animal meat, basically. And we talked about. The Soyrizo brand, which is often, when we see it sold, it's sold not cheaper then, but identically, to the pork chorizo at least.

but are there any other ideas whether for a new influencer channel or for a new food company or anything in the world that you hope somebody listening will start on their own, that will be influenced by you here right now,

Toni Okamoto: I don't have any company in particular that I want to see created besides seeing vegan companies come down in price for their products. But I do wanna encourage anybody who is listening and feels like [00:38:00] this space is so saturated, how could they offer anything different? I hope that they will still give a try.

become a creator if that's what they want to. There is still so much that can be added and you never know who is going to resonate with your content.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah. Are there any particular genres of maybe food that nobody has done a vegan creator channel for, or regional cuisine or anything? Is there a, an Ethiopian vegan food creator out there,

Toni Okamoto: for example?

I'm sure there is, but you can be a different voice.

Paul Shapiro: All right. Very good. Well, Tony, congratulations on the fourth Cookbook Plant, based on a budget, quick and easy, I cannot wait to see it. Hit the New York Times bestseller list and we'll have a big celebration. So I'm looking forward to that. And congratulations on all of your

Toni Okamoto: success.

Thank you so much for having me.