The OG of Mycelium Fermentation: The Quorn Story

Paul Shapiro: [00:00:00] Marco, welcome to the Business for Good Podcast.

Marco Bertacca: It's great to see you and great to be

Paul Shapiro: here, Paul. Oh, it's my pleasure. I can assure you I am a very long time corn consumer. I have I, I actually think I'm like, if you were, if you had a term for people like super corn consumers or something like I, I eat it on a regular basis and have for a very long time.

So, let me first just start out by saying I appreciate the work that you're doing because it literally feeds me.

Marco Bertacca: Fantastic. Thank, thanks a lot Paul. Actually, really, really great to hear. That. Th there's, there's some very, very keen consumers out there. And you know, even better to hear that, that I have one in front of me

Paul Shapiro: now.

You do, you do for sure. Now, you know, you guys are dominant in the EU market. I know. I want to get into You know, I want to get into the history here, but I just wanna mention for, you know, for those of you who are American and are listening, corn, which is of course Q U O R N, is dominant in the EU market for [00:01:00] plant-based Marco, am I correct that you're the number one brand of plant-based meat in the, in the, in Europe.

Marco Bertacca: That is correct.

Paul Shapiro: Yes. Okay. Yeah. And not, not so much in the us obviously the US is a larger market for plant-based meat, but I know Marco, that you're trying to change that, and we're gonna get all into that and I'm really looking forward to to hearing more about those plans. But lemme just first say, you know, like a lot of people, they think of plant-based meat as these newer companies, right?

They think about Impossible Foods and Beyond Meat. But corn is like the OG in this space. It goes back decades. And I, I just want you to tell people this story about how corn got started and what it is, because it's not really technically, but plant-based at all. It's fungi based. So just tell us the story about how this all came to be.

Look

Marco Bertacca: really keen to tell you also because the, the story of Korn is somehow what brought me here in the first place because I, I also didn't know a lot about it until three and a half years ago where I, I met the, the current owner of Korn and told me everything about how, how it all started in [00:02:00] the sixties actually.

And it's all coming from the vision of, of a man of those days, I would call it a real industrialist who is Lord Rank, who already at that time saw that the world would face a, a massive crisis, a massive A risk of running outta food. And he had capabilities in both bakery and other industrial sectors.

And he saw that by finding a solution and finding the ability to transform what was at that time really available, which is carbohydrates into, into protein. That was a, that was, that was a dream that he had. And and so he, he, he just went and, and looked for different microbes around the world and in different places.

And then his scientist, through his knowledge discovered the way to to do that. And and you know, I, I'm, of course, I'm summarizing a long, long story because it, it took them about 30 years to do something that would become. [00:03:00] Commercially viable because at the beginning it was just an exploration.

An exploration into. Into, let's say, technological ex exploring something that they didn't know if it worked. And that's what I find fascinating. So they, they knew that they wanted to resolve the problem of, of protesting the world. They had an idea about how to do it. They knew some technologies, but they required belief investment.

And, and, and and persistence really, you know, we, we, we, we think about our days are, are, are difficult now, but in, in those days, finding people that would be prepared to continue to put investment into something that was not proven was incredible. So, you know, 35 years later they found a way to transform this through fermentation.

So basically by fermenting this microbe and feeding it with with glucose, they developed this, this, this protein that was the containing a lot of positive elements into it. And that is how was born.

Paul Shapiro: Okay, Marco. It, it's funny you mentioned the investors because I was thinking about [00:04:00] imagine going to investors today and telling them, I want you to invest, but there will be no ROI for 35 years.

You know, and, and many of them won't be alive by the time that that you start seeing some of the returns. So, they must have had some pretty some pretty patient and uh, and interesting investors back then for the company.

Marco Bertacca: It's, it's incredible you mentioned that. You know, I've been, it's something that I think about frequently and and I've been reflecting on the fact that, you know, for 35 years, this company didn't make any money.

Right. So, and now Ko since they, they discovered the how to be commercially viable and how to make protein and be present in the market. Quo has become at that stage, and still nowadays, one of the very few very profitable companies in, in the space. But now you were asking me about what about those 35 years.

And I, I, I think there's an element of finding somebody that really, really believes in what you're trying [00:05:00] to achieve. It's, it's not just a matter of money or matter, matter of having a business model at the beginning. You don't have a business model. You're just exploring, right? So, some of the questions, sometimes the venture capitalists ask up, you know, very difficult to answer.

Sometimes the science is not ready yet, but you really believe that something is gonna happen. So having, having the, the, i I even call it luck at some stage, you know, finding someone that really, really believes in your passion and your determination, and that is, Prepared to stay next to you and, and, and, and it takes the journey with you.

I think that was fundamental at that time. I think it's even more important now.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah. It's a, it's an excellent point, and I'm glad you mentioned profitability. You know, it's interesting, you know, nearly none of these companies are profitable right now. Like in. Possible foods or, or beyond, or the other ones are they're all losing money and, you know, they can still attract capital to keep their operations going.

But corn is obviously a much more mature business. In fact, it, you know, it was acquired back in 2015 for 831 million US dollars, which is [00:06:00] one of the larger plant-based meat actually, I bet. For, not for plant-based milk, but for plant-based meat. I presume that's by far the largest acquisition of all time, would you say That's correct.

Marco Bertacca: It is, it is correct. And this is where we actually introduced, if you think about this business as has been moving on from believers to believers. And the last one is is he, so Santo who is who's the owner of the company from, from from the Philippine Monez, is is a gentleman that you know, started his own companies and then turned himself into understanding more and more about nutrition.

Wanted to have a big impact in the world because to some extent the nutrition. That he's providing. The Philippine, he recognizes not, is not possible to, to be sustained everywhere in the world, you know, noodles, and he's trying to, to turn that into a, a healthy business. But he saw in qu the possibility to have an impact on a much bigger picture.

And so he believed in it. He, he, he decided to, to go for it. The business was already profitable at that time, and I think. The essence [00:07:00] is, of course, we ferment our own protein. And and that's a big benefit because again, I, I only joined the business three years ago, so I cannot, I cannot acclaim any, any of the, of the discoveries of the past.

But the fact that we ferment our own protein gives us a, a very, very big advantage compared to some of the company that have to, to, to, to buy and transform the product through a number of processes.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah. I hear you on that. I mean, you know, you're not relying on, you know, the vagaries of pea protein production, for example.

Although, I guess in some respects you are relying on wheat protein for the glucose. But you still have, you know, you still do have a lot more control o over the system since you are essentially generating your own product as opposed to just taking other ingredients off the shelf. So, you know, Monday Nien you mentioned, this is the acquirer who bought the company in 2015 for, again, 831 million.

They announced about a year or so ago that they were gonna pump in 355,000,355 million US dollars [00:08:00] to expands corn's. Corn's presence in the United States. And so I'm wondering like, how is that going? It's obviously an enormous amount of money. You know, like we, we think it's a big deal when we hear about some fermentation startup getting a, a 10 million investment or even a hundred million investment in eyes pop up and but $355 million to expand corn in the us.

How is it going so far, Marco?

Marco Bertacca: Yeah, look, the so the, the big i p o that the modern, the Philippines was in fact targeted to expand the capacity of corn. And I, I still remember where two and a half years ago our overall categories growing at 2025, 30% big growth everywhere. And at that time we really needed an injection of of capital because we wanted to build a new ferment.

We wanted to go in different channels. We wanted to grow both in the US and in other areas like QSR with some of the big global customers. So what we've done, we've done quite some significant investment in In the us you know, we went for [00:09:00] a let's say we decided to invest money from the marketing perspective into a partnership with Drew Barrymore.

That has really helped us to increase our awareness overall. We invested in the new to market. We opened a, a food service division. We also opened a new innovation center. So, clearly a, a a lot in particular in the US and but not only there because also in the UK. We were the number one, we've been the number one for number of years, but we were really challenged by a num, a number of newcomers into, into the market.

So really stepping up on some fundamentals, like marketing presence, new product development and so on, has been, has been important for us on the, on the housing going look, we, I have to, I have to be, be very transparent that we have. Three key strategic pillar, let's call it the one, is to remain number one and to strengthen our position in the, that is going really well.

We're growing market share. Quarter on quarter, grow our food service and European, sorry, food service at [00:10:00] Q S R presence in the world. That is also going very well. Our growth in the US is not really going according to the plans that I had. You know, we've invested a lot, but the, the market in the us has not giving us, you know, it's probably an element of market, an element of us.

It's not giving us the, the returns that we were hoping. And I think it's a combination of, of different aspects. We've certainly grown in our awareness, in our presence, et cetera, but the, the, the current time I think in the, in the US is, is challenging from the price perception of of the middle alternative business.

So we find that the consumers in the current times are kind of going back to some of the basic and nutritional elements, basic carbs. And so the, the category is thinking a bit of a hit. So in the, in this environment, we are actually being a little bit more cautious about accelerating the investment further.

So we've done a, a big investment in the last year and a half. [00:11:00] We're now po I, I don't wanna call it Posy, but we, we are strengthening what we've done until now, until the category turns back and we're ready to, to grow further in the posture, posture, challenging times that we see currently.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah, I do think that the inflationary environment is making people less willing to spend more for these products that cost, generally speaking more than commodity animal-based meat.

And so it's you know, it's a difficult thing. But I guess fortunately for you, most of your products are frozen and the frozen. Alternative meats category has done better than the refrigerated lately. So yeah, it, it, it is

Marco Bertacca: absolutely true. And look, one of the, one of the plan that we, that we always had and that we still have, we just need to, to see maybe to wait a little bit better days, is of course, we, we currently export the, the vast majority, if not everything that we do that we sell in the US from the uk.

And this is not this is not ideal. You know, so we are always wanted to establish our facilities, our factories in the us. And and this is what I [00:12:00] really hope is gonna be our next step of, of our growth in, in the country.

Paul Shapiro: So you, so you would be building fermentation systems in the US also?

Marco Bertacca: I can, I can share, you know, when I, when I arrived there we have. Done an investment in the uk. But then we were really planning to, to invest in the US because I think the best way for us is really to have fermentation in the country where as close as possible to the to the consumers. We've also currently developing something that I hope I can share a little bit more with you in the future.

We are. We are developing a new technology that will enable us to transport our myprotein ambient, stable. And that is that is gonna change the game for us and for Myprotein in general because as you know, at the moment, Micro Protean needs to stay at a chill stage or a frozen stage, and that will give us a shorter te shelf live while we're developing some technology.

That is in the second half of this year, I'll, I'll, I'll share a bit more about this, [00:13:00] but that's gonna really change the game. Great.

Paul Shapiro: So I, I presume it would still be sold to the consumer shoulder frozen, but you just would be able to ship the actual product from Europe to the US or Otherwhere in an ambient

Marco Bertacca: state.

Yeah, correct. I think it's about sharing, you know, shipping the, the ingredient and then finalizing the ingredient in the local markets. And that's why can you be shipped everywhere on the world and then locally, then you finish

Paul Shapiro: off the product. Right. Interesting. Okay. I, I do look forward to hearing more about that, but, and rather than talking about the future, I just wanna go just to your past a little bit, Marco.

So you mentioned that you joined corn three and a half years ago. You had worked as an executive at Unilever and other food companies in, including in the dairy industry. But I, I just wanna ask, I, I read this story about you, which seemed pretty incredible, almost like reality tv. It said that when you started as c e o, that you started for the first couple weeks just by working as a factory laborer, as like an undercover boss side sort of way.

Nobody knew that you were the CEO of the company. You were just working on the line. So why'd you do that? And what was the experience like? Was it valuable for [00:14:00] you, what you learned? Tell me about it.

Marco Bertacca: Yeah, look, this is I, I'm, I'm smiling because this is something I've, I've, I've always done, you know, I'm my, my background is I, I grew up in, in factories.

I, I learned I'm an engineer, not a very good engineer, I have to say. But I, I joined those big companies and, and I thought that the, the best way to understand how a company works is to go. To go into details and, and normally a place to go where companies are producing products is just go in the factory and understand how it works.

So also what I've done here, I, we have three plants in the uk and without telling anyone I, I just did. Some shifts in, in those factories. So you, you don't go and visit, you just go and, and, and, and, and next to the operator, and then you do what they're doing. You, they train you to do things and and then you learn I think there's a lot of.

Lot of reasons why I do it first. It's, it's really helping me to understand the second you understand [00:15:00] about the products, you understand about technology, but you understand about the people and the culture that you have around you. Is that the question that people ask the you, how you see them behaving?

How, how do they interact with each other? How the bosses interact with the people on the shop floor is, is a big, big sign of of the culture that that is in the place. And and, and now what, what OTO creates creates incredible stories. Because now I can go in every factory. I know the people by their name and they know me by my name.

And you can interact. I know about their kids. I know who, who's, you know, who's doing what. I know. So there, there's this, you, you become, Yeah, you become much more than just a colleague. You know, you become yeah, you be you. There's an element of friendship that is also developed when you, when you clean a bean with a high pressure pump on a shore floor.

That, that, that's what I.

Paul Shapiro: Did you find that your acumen at performing these jobs was comparable to those who were doing it? Or did you find there was a steep learning curve for you to do it?

Marco Bertacca: I absolutely, you know, that's a very interesting part. You, [00:16:00] you'd really find how your limit, right? So, when there's a manual operation that needs to to happen on the line, you just find yourself thinking, how, how do they do?

It's so much time that I need to, to learn about it and then that, so both from the manual perspective and the, and also you, you appreciate the skills and the, the expertise. I, I am extremely fortunate because I have colleagues in my company that have been here for 35, 40 years and And, and the, the enthusiasm and the, not just the expertise, but the passion that I have is, is something that I've never seen before.

So it's I feel extremely privileged and the, the best, the best thing that I could do was, was to go in into that also, because if you think about what happened is that three months after I did that, I just got completely locked down in a. In a Airbnb where, because the pandemic struck, so I was actually running the company from, from the computer behind.

So without having done that, I wouldn't even know the people that I was working with. So it was a good [00:17:00] timing and, and, and full of learnings for me.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Well that's pretty cool. I hope there are some photos or videos of you working the line with high pressure pumps that, that might go on the wall in some type of a, a historical document of corn's history here.

But, you know, speaking of corn's history, actually, Marco, you know, the company seems to, at first, from what I can ascertain, was really intended. For the vegetarian and the vegan market. O obviously now you're seeking to expand that and to reach the so-called flexitarians. There's a much wider audience of people who do eat meat, but want to enjoy more alternative meats or maybe more plant-based food.

You have this partnership with K F C you're really focusing on chicken here. So let me first ask you like, why chicken? Do you see a path to price parody with chicken? You know, it seems like beef is so much more expensive than chicken. A lot of these companies like to focus on that because, It's easier to compete on price.

Not that many of them are competing on price, but in the future they hope to be, but chicken is even cheaper. So there's a lot of reasons to go after chicken. What

Marco Bertacca: are yours? Yeah, [00:18:00] so we have a, a very fundamental reason, which is intrinsic to our technology. We develop myprotein, and Myprotein has not only all nine essential amino acid, but has got this high fee, this structure of the, of the fibers that are really, really able to replicate the texture and the bite of chicken.

So, I think instead of trying to compete in the world of burgers where everyone nowadays chop some stink together, put them back together and, and, and sell a burger with different level of success, I think the ability of replicating the chicken texture and the bite into that. Is, is really proper and, and very well fitting to the core technology.

So that, that's one element. And the other element I think is also that when we, when we recognize that we are good, that we are good at something, we, we also know that the chicken[00:19:00] Market globally is, is enormous. So we prefer to become the best one at, at one thing and and, and continue tofe to, to, to improve the technology in that direction.

Now having said that, we have about a hundred different products. So it's not only chicken that we do, but. You refer to kfc, the, the, the, these KFC has been our partner of choice and we've been their partner of choice really around the world. And the reason is exactly the product performance. You know, one, one of the reason why somehow the categories a little bit finding a moment of reflection at the moment is that the product that all the different companies they come up with do not fully reflect what the consumer they're expecting.

And that's why. Having the recognition from KFC and our partnership with them on chicken and the fact that we are rolling out in country after country in the world is really, in my view, a demonstration that where we decided to focus is working for our technology and is delivering the best product that is available on the [00:20:00] market is recognized by the chicken experts like kfc.

Paul Shapiro: I, I definitely think they are the chicken experts. I'll grant them that. Yeah, I mean, you mentioned you have these hundred different skews. I mean, you know, my wife and I love the corn fish sticks which are not a chicken product, but I'll tell you are absolutely delicious. They're fantastic.

I like that they happen to be one of the vegan lines as well. So, the, the spicy chicken patties though, which are also vegan, are fantastic. I absolutely love them. And it leads me to this question, what, like what is the plan, if any, on the egg white issue? So I know, you know, you guys are really focused on trying to create a more sustainable protein that is less reliant on animals.

Obviously many of the skews you have do have eggs in them. So here's my question. You know, you do have vegan lines the fish sticks, the chicken patties and so on. Is there a plan to move toward more of those vegan lines? You know, you look at the other companies in the space and possible beyond, like all of them don't use animal products at all.

What's your plan, if any, on this, Marco? Yeah, look,

Marco Bertacca: I [00:21:00] so the, the executive summary is, Potentially simple. The reality is much more complicated. Let me start with the, with what is simple. We have a clear commitment to transform all our products by 2030 into vegan as long as they taste at least as good as our vegetarian product.

Okay? Now this, as long as, is what makes it complicated. And the reason is that egg and Myprotein have an incredible relationship and a, and a very complex one because the, the, the quality of the binding and the quality of the texture that egg andin are able to create are not easily to, to replicate.

And this is why. We have now dedicated the team to go into the deep technology and science of what a, a product apparently simple like ag is able to create with Myprotein. It's, it's really not simple at all. So we stay with our ambition and in fact we, we, we launch a number of a growing number of vegan [00:22:00] products.

But it, the, the reality is also that some of our vegetarian products have an incredible success with some of our consumers. So the, the reality is also that I, I always take, take the following perspective, number one I want to be seen as, as a, an extremely good and tasty. Alternative protein product, which I'm, I'm very careful not to.

I've chosen a different path. I'm not going against meat or in any shape or form. I'm not saying that meat is gonna disappear for our planet. That that is not what I'm saying. And the reason why I say that, because you, you may be aware, I live them and traveled. I've mainly lived actually in a number of different countries, and I know that meat in different cultures around the world has a very different and a very important connotation, even from the social perspective.

You know, small villages meet around around the fire and they, they make their [00:23:00] own they have their own tradition and, and some of them involves meat. So for me, the, the, the key element is reduce industrial farming. Eliminate that, therefore reduce the amount of animal protein that we eat and balance that with healthy for us, human and for the planet.

Alternative protein. So you will never hear me talking about I'm against this one on, against that one. I want to offer a healthy choice for us and the planet and that that's why. Vegan, vegetarian and, and flexitarian all are all different consumers, and, and they, they can find something that they would benefit from when they encounter corn in the shelves.

Paul Shapiro: Indeed. Although I, I have read that you are, well, you are not a vegetarian yourself, that you eat very little meat. Is that so I I, you've apparently said about once a month, right? Is

Marco Bertacca: that, is that the case? Yeah. Yeah, we go into family issues here. But Paul, the, the truth is the [00:24:00] following. So my wife stopped eating meat about seven years ago.

Okay. And and this is where our, our family conversation started. So she's, she was she was reading books and understanding more about the impact that the meat has on our world. And it's not just meat, but how we, how we. How we develop meat, how we feed meat, how we we cultivate our environment, how much of the land in our planet is dedicated to meat farming and to animal, animal growing.

And and she kept, she started to educate me, in fact, you know, and she started to, to, to train me on that. And I became more and more aware also because at that time I was working for a dairy company. So you can imagine the type of conversation that were having our family, and, and, and by listening, by learning I, I've, and then, but by chance, actually, I, I was contacted by, by, by Harry, who, who, who offered me this possibility in, and I started to read and learn much more about it as, as exactly as you say now.

I've I've been you know, I, I normally [00:25:00] eat corn about probably three, three to four times a a week. I eat meat once a month, but probably less. I am still a little bit on cheese and on fish. But I try to be as selective as I can. You know, if I, if I, if I know where the products are coming from, I try to go to, yeah.

To proximity, but it's not

Paul Shapiro: always easier. Well, I'll tell you Marco you know, I, I have I, I have been plant-based for the last 30 years, and I always tell people the same thing. If you're eating meat once a month, you're basically plant-based. You know, if everybody in the world did that, there would, we would not need to Go through all the burdens that we are going through to try to satiate the meat tooth that people have.

So, I I, I don't, I don't think you should beat yourself up over that. I, I do want to ask you there's a, a bit of a I, I don't know if how good so far is a controversy regarding the terminology in the fungi protein space, but, you know, there is the new Fungi Protein Association of which corn is a member.

And the [00:26:00] group, the companies in that space don't always call it the same thing. You know, corn is using myprotein. Many of the other companies use Myprotein. But then you have some companies that are saying nutritional fungi, protein, or some companies that are saying mycelium, or even one company that's saying mushroom root protein, which is odd since it's not mushrooms if they're using.

But You know, there's different terminologies here and I presume you're sticking with Myprotein no matter what, but I wonder if you have thoughts about these other terms that are now being used to describe what some of the other Fungi protein companies are utilizing in the space. You know, nature's Find is now on store shelves and Whole Foods, and you look at that and, you know, despite the fact that they too are using a, the genus fusarium like corn does, they don't call 'em myprotein, they call it nutritional Fungi protein.

So, Do you think there should be some type of standardization here to help consumers or do you think it doesn't really matter?

Marco Bertacca: It's a very good question. Paul, now let me share with you my perspective, which of course is. Is only three and a half years in this space. So I always take [00:27:00] myself with a pinch of salt because I'm I'm, I'm learning so much every day.

And so the, what makes me extremely excited and what I think really, really matters is that in the last few years, three to five years, actually maybe less, we now have about. 37 at last, my last count companies that have decided to invest into fungi fermented fugi fermentation, myprotein into this new space of fermented fugi because they recognize.

That uses much lower resources of the planet provides very, very good nutrition is light on the human, is light on the planet and is actually building on the history of scientific evidence that corners developed during the 35 years. So for me Anyone within this [00:28:00] space that is exploring new things, that is able to convince the consumers and tell the story to Google consumer is playing to the strength of the overall subcategory that I call foot guy fermentation.

So I'm really not, not only not bothered, and I don't have a black and white view on the on the, how it should be called. What I'm really, really keen on is that we as a group, Clarify between ourselves to the industry, to the consumers, and to our customers. The power of what Fugi can give and, and the fact that this can represent an extremely natural, you know, like part of the old fermentation that has been there for hundreds of years and, and the positive internet that this can have on our planet and our world.

I think that's the most important thing, and the fact that we team up, team up on that. And you, I I don't just say that Paul. I was, I was in expo West a few weeks ago. I met a number of what could be called competitors, and I [00:29:00] said the first thing I said, guys, if you find that can be useful for you to come and visit KO in our, I'm very open to open our facility.

Come in, see, and if there's something you can see that is useful for you, please do so. US collaborating is much more important than having. You know, even losing too much time in how do we correl we call it one way or many other ways. I, I think let's leverage our power and, and let's see what we can do to really change the, the current direction of the food chain.

Paul Shapiro: Well, that's very magnanimous of you for sure. And I, I'm sure that's highly appreciated. And, you know, Korn has been such a leader in this space for such a long time. There is a very wide gap between you and everybody else. So the companies that you're talking about, you know, they. Are are not even producing a million pounds yet, right.

Of product. Whereas you posted on LinkedIn recently, Marco, that corn's capacity is about 67,000 tons of Myprotein per year, which is about 134 million pounds [00:30:00] of Myprotein. So, you know, you think about like the Myprotein market today. I mean, it's 99. Percent plus more, more than 99% is corn still today?

I'm sure you hope that that continues. You know, we'll see. I I think that the question I have for you is, you know what other companies are trying to do? They're, you know, they like try to, you know, boast to investors. They're running a 1000 liter fermentation or a 10,000 liter fermentation, maybe even tens of thousands of liters of fermentation.

But you guys, I mean, I don't know, it must be in the millions by now. If you take all of the fermentors that you have it must be in the millions, right? And so, I guess you know, one question I have is, With the scale that you have, it's such a dramatic industrial scale that you have compared to those of the rest of the companies in this space, which are again, you know, all collectively, less than 1% of the myprotein market today.

You know, what are the types of prices that you can achieve, right? What's, you know, what's the selling point for corn? What's the cogs on producing the myprotein? Like, how do you. [00:31:00] Think about now that you're scaled, like it's probably hard to bring costs down that dramatically. So how do you think about that from being, you know, the, the largest player by far in the space?

Marco Bertacca: Yeah. So f first of all, I you know, I'm I always played probably the opposite of, of many companies that are out there. I I always encourage us to say to be very, very humble and to acknowledge that yes, we have the scale and the truth is that other, other players will get there sooner or later.

And so always stay focused on what can we do better? What can we learn by others? You, you may have seen that we recently decided to invest in this very, in a very nice startup actually in the US where we believe we can help them, but it's also true that we, we can also learn from them. So in, in my personal view, which,

Paul Shapiro: you know, sorry, Marco.

Sorry to interrupt. You know what? I didn't see the investment. Which company did you

Marco Bertacca: invest in? [00:32:00] Yeah, so it is a company called The Prime Roots.

Paul Shapiro: Oh, okay. Yes. Yeah. Cool company. Yeah. And

Marco Bertacca: yeah. And yeah, very, very nice. And I think that the perspective that I have is always size is, is only, is only telling you a lot about your past but not about your future.

So

Paul Shapiro: that's a good line. Yeah. Prime Roots is a great company. We've had their C e o Kimberly Lee on this show before, and we'll link in the show notes to this podcast will link her, her latest episode with us. But they're a, they're a cool company. I really enjoy eating their dough slices.

Marco Bertacca: Absolutely. And they, they, they do, they do a great work and and they're discovering something that is, that is really interesting.

And we will welcome them here at, at our facilities. And, and we, if we, you know, whatever we can share, we will share. So for me really, really important is that the, in order to be able to drive enormous changes, [00:33:00] In the food chain that are absolutely required. It's much more important to, to share and to help others within the same space to create a bigger movement.

And and that's what I'm, I'm really, really keen to drive. And I think I am in a good position to be able to drive it because as you said, as I shared with you before, opening the doors to what we currently do, I think is It's the best demonstration of our, of how serious we are on that. Going back to your point about the cost and the, and the the parody, which I think is, is a very important step in particular in the current environment.

I was sharing with investors just a couple of weeks ago that when I look at let's take a reference point, a market reference point where I know the price point extremely way, which is the UK currently we are on the market with a chicken pieces product. At just under six GB pound per kilo, while a very similar product still from [00:34:00] Tesco actually sometimes is, even private label is higher than six pound, just above six pound per kilo.

So the truth is that we already have the possibility. To achieve a price parity in a su against the chicken soybean supermarket, and also in a min MI product as well. So, of course, in order to be able to do that around the world, we need to find a way to produce our micro protein or to ship our micro protein in a much more effective way than we're doing at the moment.

That's why we have mm-hmm. An incredibly strong position in the uk, but not yet in some of the markets where

Paul Shapiro: we are. Got it. Which goes back to the shelf stability and a ambient temperature shipping point. Speaking of doing things better than we do today you have commented many times in other interviews, Marco, about the desire to find a different substrate.

For your fermentation rather than just wheat-based glucose. And you've said you want to investigate the use of agricultural byproducts so you could have an even lighter footprint and maybe even lower cost of goods [00:35:00] to use. So what are some of the more promising explorations for you? You know, right now you feed your fusarium microbes, the glucose from wheat.

What else might you think would be a diet that they may enjoy?

Marco Bertacca: Look, it's a, it is, in my view, is a really, really fundamental, this is one of the things that can change change the game completely because we have if you think about how much of our agriculture. Is going to feed animals for animal protein production.

And then what we are, what we're left with is the leftover in the fields. And a lot of those leftovers still contain a lot of sugars, a lot of carbohydrates. If we would be able to convert those. Into a feed stock for micro or when we are able to do that you can, I then imagine that we would really be able to transform waste into, into protein.

We, we hear more and more exploration around this, this topic. And the, what I can share with you is that we have engaged with a number [00:36:00] of, of universities in the, in the space. We are establishing some partnerships also with deep science groups that are really. Doing a scientific exploration on the, on this conversion from wasted to, to protein.

And on top of that one other element that we are spending resources and we, we hope to have some, some interesting success. So is there is always a certain sub-product. That is the result of fermentation. And you could talk about water, which is extracted. We still contain protein. You can talk about other elements of the, of, of the process and the ability to convert those product into something that is useful and is natural.

That can be used as a, as as a flavor. National flavoring or natural, natural salt is, is, is super important. We we have some. We, so we have a number of streams that we're working on. Of course everything that we do is, is, is big because the size of our fermentors. [00:37:00] So that's why it's yeah, something that I'm really, really excited about for the next the next few years in fact, because it's not gonna be, this is gonna be a bit of a marathon, is not, is not a sprint.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I mean, it is kind of like the holy grail. If you can find some agricultural byproduct that can be up upcycled into high, high quality myprotein, it, it would be, as you said, game changing truly. For sure. Yeah. I, I wanna ask you a question about your children, Marco, because you mentioned.

I've heard you mention before that when you started working at corn, you have said maybe jokingly, I'm not sure that your children were proud of you for the first time in years. So what do you mean by that? Like, why, why are they proud of you?

Marco Bertacca: Well, but Paul, I, I, I never I never really joke when I talk about my kids, I've I'm, I've really, I've really developed I'm very sensitive to that.

He's look, I, I. I, I'm born in Italy and I started to travel. I left Italy 23 years ago, and I went around the, the world of many, many countries and moved my [00:38:00] family and my kids have been with me. So the. We are a very, very small, enclosed group. And so, and we've always been about the five

Paul Shapiro: of you.

The five of you meaning your wife

Marco Bertacca: and three children? Exactly. My wife. And, and the three kids, I still call them kids even if they are 26, 24, and 22. So, but they're still my kids, of course. Two boys and a little and little girl. And when, when I was in the Philippine, in fact, they. You know, I had a career with a number of big, big sizable companies, and they understand the, they understood a bit what I was, what I was doing.

But they were never that close to the products that I was selling, if you want. And that was how can I describe? It was a bit, you know, I was in bakery, I was selling sugar, I was in, in dairy, I was selling, I was selling the powder and And then they, I came back and I said, look we, you know what about this?

I've been interviewed with [00:39:00] this company called ko, and then my, my daughter came to me with this, with this Instagram posting of, of one of her friends in the US actually, and she, and they were talking about ko. Because this girl is is vegetarian, so she was eating this product, so she knew much more about corn than any of the product that ever did in the past.

And that, that's why I had this, this conversation in the house where everybody was really excited and for the first time in a while, they were excited about my job which they haven't been for some time. And they, and when I told them, yeah, because they told me I can change the world with this if I do this and I do that.

And they, and I, I saw that, you know, I, I became a topical conversation and for those who are listening and they went through the teenage phase of their kids. I moved from being very, very important when they were younger to not, not really, not really being very relevant when they were through the teenage phase.

And, and at this stage, they're now back, they still ask me questions. They still want to know what I'm doing, you know, they hold me accountable, which [00:40:00] is. I find fascinating. So my, my daughter, if she doesn't like a product, you know, she's gonna tell me, I could tell you this. So they're very, very involved.

And for me, I, the dream, I, I always had as a, as a human being is if I can do something that provides all my family that I really, really love and that I find as a passion, you know, I'm the luckiest man on, on the planet. And I think I'm extremely fortunate because I've got the combination of the two.

Paul Shapiro: That's really nice. I'm glad that your kids are are rooting for you here at Corn. I, I know that you've had a, a very varied background in terms of the companies that you've worked for. So, you know, whether it was working at Unilever or working in, in the dairy field, or now working in the alternative meat field, I presume, Marco, that you've picked up a, a few things or two and that many resources have been useful for you.

And so let me ask you, If there's somebody listening right now and they're thinking, oh, I really love what Marco is doing. I admire his trajectory, or whatever they're thinking. Are there any [00:41:00] resources that you think have been useful for you, Marco, in your own journey as an executive to now being the c e o of Korn that you would recommend for others?

Any books or any other things that have been useful for you that you think, Hey, check this out. It was useful for me?

Marco Bertacca: Mm-hmm. This is a very good question Paul, and I think the. Maybe, maybe just a, a couple of of reflections from, from my side and the first one is when we talk about books and we talk about benchmarking, we talk about comparing ourselves with others.

One of the learnings that I, that I've, that I've embraced and I always like to share is We tend to benchmark when we compare ourselves with something that has already been done. So while there's always value in that, when you sit at the forefront of developing something that is not there, is not available out there, benchmarking has its own limitation.

So [00:42:00] one of the biggest thing that I, I could, I could share is the, maybe two, is this element of curiosity. And this element of my wife calls it the power of listening. Stop watching videos, reading stuff. Just get out there, meet people and listen to them. Are they consumers? Are they customers?

Are they normal people? Are they people that you have no idea what they're doing? But this element of being very, very curious, not relying on something that has already been done, but relying on something that is existing out there that is not, not many people have seen, I think is is fascinating. We, we tend to.

Only learn when we listen, while we learn nothing at all when we say something. And I, I find it very, very, very important. And the other one, which I, I thought has served me well is [00:43:00] take any opportunity that passes in front of you. You know, if it is you invited and something and you don't know what it is, you, you.

Somebody's connecting you or somebody's offering you something to go and visit a place that we never just, just take any opportunity in front. You will learn so much from anything that is wrong at you in in that direction. So I think these are few of the reflections that I would like to share.

Paul Shapiro: Very useful.

You know, sadly for you, you are the ones speaking, not listening now, but there are lots of people who are listening to you. There, there are lots of people who are listening to you right now, and so, they may be thinking, you know, geez, I, I want to get into this game as well. Are there any companies that you wish existed, Marco, that somebody listening right now might pursue any technologies or companies that don't yet exist that you think?

You would do a great deal of good in the world if you would pursue this idea?

Marco Bertacca: Absolutely, yes. It's this element. You, you actually you mentioned that earlier. You triggered me on that earlier. [00:44:00] There is this ability to transform waste. Into something that is, that is useful and I any form of it. I really think a lot has currently been done in the, in this recycling, in the, in the up scaling, in the elimination of you know, deification and pollution.

But the The identify something in that can transform food waste and, and what we tend to waste into, into good protein and for, and healthy nutrition for humans. I think this is the area where I would every time I talk to my kids and their friends, I always trigger them on this. I so that's what I would love to see much more out there.

People that come up with what, what is not existing, which is a transformation of waste into healthy nutrition.

Paul Shapiro: I couldn't agree with you more, Marco. I, you know, this is a passion of mine as well and something that my own company, the Better Miko has vigorously pursued. And it's [00:45:00] something of, of great interest to us too, I can assure you.

And you were very kind. You've always been very kind to us and I, I hope that we get to meet up sometime, either in California or in the uk. But for now, let me just say thank you. I appreciate. The leadership that corn has shown for decades now. I love eating the products and I hope to be getting more of the totally vegan ones in the future as well.

So tell your team. Let's move on that by 2030, maybe sooner we'll see. But for now, Marco, just wanna say thanks so much and we will be rooting for corn's continue to success both in Europe, the US, and elsewhere. Thank

Marco Bertacca: you very much, Paul. Thanks.