Paul Shapiro: Yves, welcome to the Business For Good podcast. 

Yves Potvin: So nice to be here. So nice to be here. 

Paul Shapiro: Yes, you as well. All right. I actually had your product about an hour ago for the first time, I went to Sprouts and I purchased it. And it was quite good. I tried two of them. One was like a kale sushi and the other one was a tuna sushi. And they were both quite good. And I really appreciated it. Go on. You look like you want to say something about them.

Yves Potvin: Yes, we have kale onigiri. 

Paul Shapiro: Onigiri, not sushi. Thank you. Onigiri. So, for the, for people who aren't familiar with what Onigiri is, do you want to tell them what that is? 

Yves Potvin: Onigiri is a snack quite popular in Japan. It's a triangle, and it's stuffed with, different things. We have, one is a kale gomae. The other one is a shiitake barbecue Korean mushroom. And roasted corn poblano. 

Yves Potvin: And finally, a Japanese curry. So, we have four different versions of the onigiri. So, very easy. 

Paul Shapiro: Yeah, I saw the, I saw that shitakemushroom one and I thought about getting it, there were 4 different SKUs. I got it at Sprouts and I bought 2 of the skews that were that were there. though, and it was, it was great. I really enjoyed it. And we'll include links in the show notes for this episode at business for good podcast dot com as to where you can get all of it. But let's start from the beginning Yves, because, Konscious is the latest iteration of your very successful entrepreneurial career. But let's go back, because you were not always a serially successful entrepreneur, you were a chef. What got you into being culinarily interested in the first place? I mean, before you started thinking about building all of these companies in the plant-based space, you were like this OG plant-based chef back 

Yves Potvin: Mm hmm. So, you know, people will have -- look at yourself, you have many different career in your life and they say, I read [00:02:00] somewhere that people change career average 3 time in their life. So, I studied architectural design and, never complete my degree. I realized that's not what I want to do for the rest of my life.

So, a friend of mine told me, hey, if you love food, why don't you be a chef? So I went to Culinary Art Institute in Canada. And, I was, I studied Nouvelle French cuisine, the healthier version of the French cuisine. And one day, I wasn't sure if I want to do this for the rest of my life. So I cycled across Canada.

I came from Montreal to Vancouver and along the way, you have a lot of time to think. And I think I was always an entrepreneur and I said, what's missing in my life. You know, healthy, convenient food, because I can tell you when you buy it, you don't have a lot of time to cook and there was not a lot of stuff that was healthy and convenient.

So, when I arrived in Vancouver, I [00:03:00] had an epiphany to create a new line of cholesterol-free, convenient food. And if you want to take the cholesterol, you have to take the meat or the seafood away from it. And that's how I started. 

Paul Shapiro: What year was this?

Yves Potvin:  I'm going to age myself a little bit now. 1983. 

Paul Shapiro: All right.

So 1983, you were interested in cholesterol free foods. Now, were you eating -- were you eating plant based yourself back then? I mean, I think in like 1983, I think LightLife existed at that time for a few years already, but there wasn't, you know, a, a broad array of, of, meat alternatives available in the market in 1983.

Yves Potvin: Yeah, yeah. No, it's,  it's interesting you mentioned that because, I think I, I'm, I'm mentioning one of the articles that I, I was the first fresh veggie hot dog, commercialized, in North America. LightLife came six months after me. they came in 1985. they were doing tempeh before, but, their first, product of with, or [00:04:00] something – it came, we met at a show and Anaheim and I asked him when they started, we agreed that it was 6 months after me.

So I can claim that I was the 1st one, commercialized. 

Paul Shapiro: All right. 

Yves Potvin: So, yeah, it was very few company at the time. I always have an interest in, plant-based food. I was not, vegetarian, but I think it's a good, it's a good diet. And so, and that's one of the reason I launched, Yves's Veggie Cuisine, my first product. 

Paul Shapiro: So, you know, LightLife was just doing tempeh.

Were there any meat alternatives in the market? Maybe Worthington's even, like was, were there any?

Yves Potvin: Worthington, Worthington was in the marketplace, So that's why I say” I was the first Yves Veggie Cuisine. They had the “links” in a can, and they had a variety of product. I have to tell you, though, you had to be Seventh-day Adventist to eat those products.

The quality was, it was very challenging to eat. If you're not, you were not a hub for Seventh-day Adventist.

Paul Shapiro: Right. If, if you didn't have God commanding you to eat it, it would be, it'd be tough. Tough to, tough to swallow it. yeah. I, I tried those Worthington, veggie dogs that came in the can, when I became a vegetarian in 1993.

And I remember thinking, you know, I, I'm happy just not to eat hot dogs. Thankfully Yves’ Veggie Cuisine was in existence at that time. And I quickly found it. But how long were you running Yves prior to the exit when you sold it to Hain Celestial?

Yves Potvin: So, Yves, I started in 1985 and we became the number 1 meat alternative, fresh meat alternative in North America.

We were, by the time I exit in 2001, we were in about, I think, 7000 supermarket. And we had, we were just fresh. So that's the big difference between. You know, Gardein and what I'm doing right now. It's all frozen versus fresh. [00:06:00] Fresh brings this challenge because North America, the distance between where we produce in Vancouver to Florida is the same as Paris and the dark side of Russia.

And when they put the prisoner, where's that? 

Siberia.

Yves Potvin: Siberia. Yes. Yeah. So most people in Europe would say, why would you send something that far? But in America, it's so big that, you know, that's the challenge we have with transportation. 

Paul Shapiro: So you, so you're running Yves’ Veggie Cuisine for 16 years prior to the exit. And back then, it's not like there was venture capital funding for these types of startups in their, in the way that there is at least in the past few years there has been.

so did you start it with your own money? Were you, did you have any investors at all when you started the company? 

Yves Potvin: So I started with $5,000 of my own money. I borrowed $10,000 from family and friend, and I had a government loan guaranteed by the bank at $25, 000. [00:07:00] So I started with $40,000. I never had a partner.

I never had a line of credit for the 1st, 4 years. So needless to say, my salary was not that big. The company grew 50 percent per year for 13 years in a row. Wow. and, you know, if you look at the business book, they say that without an injection of cash, you cannot grow that fast because your ratio don't work.

Your ratio of debt and equity does not work. But so I sold the business without having any partners. and but my bankers were my partner, eventually because they're the one financing the growth of the business.

Paul Shapiro: Wow. And so was it publicized what the amount of the acquisition by Hain Celestial was in 2001?

Yves Potvin: Yes, it was, I think 35 million US or something like this. 

Paul Shapiro: And how much revenue did the company have at that time? 

Yves Potvin: We were doing about 35. 

Paul Shapiro: [00:08:00] Okay. And, and what was this a life changing event for you? Like if, if you didn't have any partners and you didn't have that many investors, was that, was the, the lion's share of that 35 million goes to you?

Yves Potvin: Well, I, you know, I ended up giving a fair amount of, the company to all my employees. Yes. So the, the key senior management, even if they were not officially partnered, I give 5 percent to this person, 5%. And so, I'm always a guy that likes to share for the people. You don't, you know, Sir Hillary, Sir Edmund Hillary, who climbed the Everest said, you don't climb a mountain by yourself. And you don't build a company by yourself.

So, I'm, and this is why I know we're going to talk about Konscious, but I'm very excited to say that it's a company that’s employee owned. Mm-hmm. So everybody has shared in the company. Yeah. So yeah, Yves Veggie Cuisine, I was, but you know, 99% of my net worth was in that business and I put 16 years, and I paid myself [00:09:00] $25,000 for like 12 years.

Paul Shapiro: Wow. 

Yves Potvin: Be because you know, you, I'm not sure if you have kids, Paul, but if you don't have enough food on the table, Who are you going to give it to? You're going to give it to your kid. And it's the same thing of business. If there's not enough money, you're going to give it to the business. 

Paul Shapiro: Right. Exactly. Yeah.

So, and to answer your question, my wife and I only have one dependent in our life who is canine and not, not homosapiens. And so we, we, we work hard to give him a better life, hopefully. But, yes, I, I, I very much feel that and in fact, the startup that I run called The Better Meat Co. is actually is not that dissimilar.

We're all full-time employees, have partial ownership of the company. And I can assure you that my salary is very modest compared to what it could be otherwise. So, for that reason that I want the company to have a better chance of survival. Okay. And yeah, of course, we're going to get to Konscious, which is the, you know, the whole purpose of, the, the catalyst, I should say for this interview, but you've led such an interesting life.

I just want to go through [00:10:00] these various chapters for you, from a chef to starting your own company, running it, and then having this 35 million acquisition. And then how long after that did you think, okay, I'm now getting into high moisture extrusion. I'm going to do Gardein to make even more realistic meat alternatives.

Yves Potvin: So, the reason, you know, I, I'm an entrepreneur and, I mean, we were the number one brand fresh. Everybody wants to buy, you know, Conagra, etc. And I was not really interested in selling, business. But, Worthington was bought by Kellogg, Kraft bought Boca. So all the big companies were getting in. And I, we started developing, high moisture extrusion at Yves Veggie Cuisine because I was looking for the next generation of product.

We spent over a million dollars in R and D. Extrusion is a very expensive, technology, know how, and we spend almost 2 years [00:11:00] developing it. Then I realized I didn't have the capital to commercialize this technology. Because I didn't have millions of dollars to do that. so in 1999, there was a lot of small business coming into, into play.

I was really afraid. I actually found one of my competitor and was trying to call me a copy of ground run. And we had found from the product contain, select pathogen -- somebody was going to be sick because they didn't pasteurize the product. [INABUDIBLE] We were -- you have to recall your product because it's too dangerous.

And he says, well you are my competitor. So finally, he did recall it. And I was afraid the same thing was going to happen to the plant-based as happened with the spinach, the lettuce, somebody would get sick with E. coli and for 6 months, nobody eat meat [00:12:00] alternatives because the quality control of those small [INABUDIBLE] was not there.

So, for that reason, I start looking at, I need an exit to commercialize Gardein, but also to take some. Yeah. You know, I had two kids by then, and it's not about myself, it's about the family to have some kind of responsibility. So I sold to Hain Celestial in 2001, and in 2003, I had an non-compete for five years.

I started scaling up because I, I bought, I bought the, I bought the technology from Yves’ Veggies Cuisine, the extrusion, and I started scaling up in 2003, but with a non-complete, so just doing food service. 

Paul Shapiro: Right. Cause you, my understanding is Guardian was B2B. And in fact, you were selling to Hain Celestial as well.

Right. For the, for the beginning part of Gardein, my, my recollection is that you had like an intel inside approach where the, you know, you had to put on the pack, like something like powered by Gardein or something like that on there. Right?

Yves Potvin: Yeah. I was [00:13:00] selling to, Morningstar was selling to all the different people.

The idea was going to be an Intel Insider GoreTex, you know, made with Gardein. Unfortunately, that strategy did not work because a company of very risk adverse. I remember seeing Morningstar and I showed them all the product that Gardein eventually made and the guy says, I don't think there's a market for this.

And I said, so why do you think? Oh, we've done some consumer feedback and I don't think it's a market. So, you know, a big company are risk adverse. And that's why in 2008, I decided I'm going to have to launch in retail, because nobody wants to launch those product and I know there's a market for it. And, you know, a good friend of mine with friend Tal Ronnen was helped me and we launched the brand on Oprah in, in 2009.

Paul Shapiro: I remember. I was watching that and, I remember being so impressed. You know, you mentioned Tal Ronnen who [00:14:00] is a longtime friend of mine and a and a chef as well, who now runs his own restaurant called Crossroads in L. A. But, you know, it's an amazing story. Like, I remember, Tal from. Way back when he was like the IT guy at an animal welfare charity.

And he was just like the guy who helped you fix your computers, you know, when, when you had a computer problem. And then, you know, you ended up going to, become a chef and look what he did with Gardein and now with so many more things as well, since then. He’s a very impressive guy, but so you had a wild ride, Oh, go on, sorry.

Yves Potvin: But Paul, I want to, you know, a lot of people look at, entrepreneur like myself and it's, wow, the guy made a lot of money, you know? So I have to tell you that when I launched Gardein, I lost money for five years, you know, I was self financed and I was writing a check at 200,000 a month to keeping the business going for five months.[00:15:00] 

Paul Shapiro: But 200, 000 a month for five years is a lot more than 5 million, right? 

Yves Potvin: No, it's, I was, I was 15Million in the business when I brought private equity. So, you know, you might say, oh, the guy made a lot of money or when they say, oh, Gardein’s a lot of money. It takes a lot of risk takes a lot of belief. Because my break even was 30M because it's very complex, a lot of machinery, big capital expenditure.

And it's really when I decided in 2007, when I saw that the Intel inside did not work, you know, I remember sitting in my room and said, I have to break them all. I have to start all over. And I have like 12 million by that time, and I have to reinvent this. Brad to go back in the marketplace and show to show that there's a market for this product.

You know, it's easy to [00:16:00] look back and look at those number and say, wow, this guy made a lot of money, but it's you have to really believe in what you're doing and and take a lot of risk. 

Paul Shapiro: Yeah, so so speaking of money, by the time you had the acquisition in 2014 for Gardein. What was the total of that acquisition by Pinnacle?

Yves Potvin: Well, let me go back. So, in 2008, I, you know, I couldn't put more money, so I brought private equity mm-hmm. to help finance Gardein. And, they put quite a bit, money, in, but if you know, you raise you, you raise money. I, you know, raising money, it's all about timing. I raised money in the worst time in the history of raising money. In 2008, in October, in 2008, October.

Wow. So we had 6, 6, 6 private equity that was looking at us to invest money by January, 2009, there was only one. [00:17:00] And so, and they kind of like THG saw a little bit of blood in the water and they believed in me. They squeeze a deal that that was a little bit more difficult to swallow, let's say. And so, yeah, the company sold for 175, 000, 000 and, it's under 54 into 14, but there was a good chunk of that private equity took. 

Paul Shapiro: Right. Well, you know, Gardein, I can see why it would be worth that much. I mean, not I, when it came out, I remember I certainly touted it as this revolutionary product. It was, you know, people today make the false claim. They say, well, plant-based meat was a kind of sleepy category until Beyond and Impossible came along.

And they're the ones who really tried to mimic meat. Whereas Gardein was seeking to mimic meat in a way that was. Very much and today is still a pretty dominant brand in the frozen [00:18:00] space. I mean, when I go, 

Yves Potvin: it's a number. I think it's a number. 

Paul Shapiro: When I, when I go to Walmart or to Target, and I look at the plant based made alternatives in the frozen section, I don't see anything that has more shelf space than Gardein, which, of course, was acquired by Pinnacle and then later by ConAgra.

So. You know, they must be doing a good job with it. Are you pleased with how the, with what the brands that you started, what their new parent companies have done? If you look at Yves’ Veggie cuisine, you look at Gardein, these things that you birthed, are you pleased with their, how they're being? Well, 

Yves Potvin: unfortunately, a lot of go, but I think, Y V C, I call it Y V C, unfortunately, a lot of those big brands, they start cutting cost and they cut the recipe and they, they, they, they, they trim and, and my number one criteria, it has to taste good.

A product has to taste good and, and be healthy, and then sustainable, et cetera, et cetera. But I, I would say, not all the company, think that way. [00:19:00] So, and, but I, I just wanna say that, from Gardein from 2009 to 2014 for five years, we were responsible for 75 percent of the growth of the plant-based business in America.

We were the engine that was growing the plant based category. We were the 1st, extrusion and I know Beyond Meat said after we were the 1st 1 to launch with extrusion. We were the first one to do that. We didn't have a burger. We had a burger, but nothing like Impossible. But we were, so Yves veggie cuisine was more daily needs, like, like sausages and hot dog, Gardein was more center of the plate item, like scallopini and a chicken nugget and fillet of fish and all that kind of stuff.

So we were sort of the second generation of meat alternative. And, and that's the downside of being with the private equity, they have a, we were the [00:20:00] leader, like, growing and, but the private equity after 5 years, they say, Okay, it's time, it's time to go. So you could say, yeah, we sold a lot of money, but look at Beyond Meat four years later, the valuation became billions of dollars. So it's all relative, right? It's, we were, we wanted to go and open a plant in the US and really grow the, grow the Gardein brand, but I didn't have the cash to buy them. and it was too early to go public. So therefore you have to, you have to exit from the shareholder and they were, they were a major shareholder and they sort of, that's the reality of business.

Paul Shapiro: Understood. Understood. Yeah, you know, it's interesting that in the tech world, when when people are not necessarily making actual physical things like food, but in the tech world where people are making apps and things like that, you have this expectation that there's going to be an exit within a few years.

And what I notice about your 2 companies so far, as you know, these [00:21:00] were a decade to a decade and a half. Of laboring away at these companies often self-funding it and losing a lot of money before you finally had success. So 1st, you know, when you look at the mortality rates for startups, which are upwards of 90 percent the fact that you the fact that you had 2 successes in a row is really incredible.

And so 1st, congratulations on that. But most people would think, okay, well, I've done my part in the world. I've had two successful companies. And you decided instead that you wanted to take a third entrepreneurial rodeo under your belt here with Konscious. And I want to chat about that because what was it that made you think, you know, I'm not going to just sit on a beach in Hawaii and, and enjoy my life that I want to do something else.

Yves Potvin: You know, it's an interesting question, because I've been asked that question a few times. I, you know, I own also, with my wife, a culinary school in [00:22:00] Vancouver. We teach entrepreneurship and culinary. The international student, and so I was kind of semi-retired, involving a lot of board and mentorship and it was really, my team that called and said, you know, there's a lot of bad products on the marketplace. You know, there's nothing like drawing a business and being successful. It's being, on a whitewater raft with a team of people. And you, you know, if you played sports, you have that team feeling, you know, 5 plus 5 equal 20. You know, it's like, it's there's a sensation of, of joy and achievement.

And so, so we decided to put the team back together. So, I'm like, COO, I hire her in 1997, my director, creative director, 1992, my director of production, 1985, my [00:23:00] procurement. So we brought the team back together and we said, let's see what we could do. So we explore the world. And, but what we, it's not, you know, I have a famous saying that I say when I give a talk, to be successful in business, you have to be the first or the best or different.

So if you don't have the two, two other three, you know, if you're just another chicken nugget right now or another mozzarella cheese, plant-based, what do you have? You know, I and one of my ex-employees work in, one of the dairy-free company, and he said, we're another fifth in the company. They're,on, on, on the shelf.

So we're, we're a commodity, and the buyer knows that. So the buyer's trying to wind it down. So, And then we zoom in, seafood, I think we all know in our lifetime that, all the fish is going to be farm most probably, like, we know we're going to probably all be driven, driving ,electric car eventually.[00:24:00] 

So we start to zoom in on things and, you know, as an entrepreneur, you always look what's missing in your life and what does the world. Need at the moment and, you know, people say sushi, so we put the team together and it took about 6 months and I came up with the idea. I came up with a brand and I said, I sent a text to everybody.

I said, Houston, we have a lift off because, the more I thought, the more I thought about it, I said, so I'm doing it. The reason I'm doing it is I love what I do. I think I'm good at what I do. And because this time for the 1st time, it can be an employee owned. that everybody has their substantial share that if we go public, or do something, I'm It's going to be a life changing event for them.

Paul Shapiro: You did just take [00:25:00] a pretty large investment though, right?

I mean, I, I read that you did like a 19 million U.S. dollar investment for the for the company, which is a very sizable amount, especially at a time right now when. VCs are not only reluctant to make investments of any kind, but especially in the alternative meat category, which has really been battered, from a lack of VC interest at this moment for a variety of reasons.

So how and why did you do it? I mean, it's a large amount of money to raise for an early-stage company. And, you're, you know, you're saying that you want maximal employee ownership. But, It's a lot to take in from VCs. It 

Yves Potvin: It is, it is, but, I can tell you that, we have a good pool of share for the importance.

That, that, any financial event we will have would be substantial for them. So the VC, it's not really VC. We have, we have a grant from the Canadian government to create innovation of 4M. I put a good chunk of money. We had a friend and family investment and [00:26:00] we had, two, I would say smart investors that are not looking for short term, but long term 1 of the companies Walter in Montreal and there's a group that family office that invest in people like me.

And if it's, 5 years to their investment or 10 years. And, you know, in business, I get would say to a young entrepreneur, don't get stupid money. Get smart. The stupid money for me is 5 years. I don't bring value. I want triple my money. And that's it. Bring smart money that is here to invest in you and help you grow the business.

So, You know, to finish my other point, it's interesting as an entrepreneur that, you know, I just finished building a house. I think our architect was 75. And nobody asked the architect, why are you not retired? You know, I just I have a good friend of mine is a painter 9 years old [00:27:00] and people say, wow, your job is your, your world is fantastic.

Love your painting. They don't say it to the artist. Why don't you not in Hawaii? You know, and but as an entrepreneur, you seem to have a timeline. Okay, you're 65 get out of here. Go retire. And I'm more of an artist. I think in that sense. I love it. Listen, I enjoy my life. But I also like,building a brand and being with people and create good product and make a contribution in people's life.

Right? 

Paul Shapiro: So let's get into it then regarding Konscious because you're making a very different type of contribution than before. Like, if you look at. Products like Gardein, which are pretty high technology products that are using a special kind of extrusion. Now you're basically using whole vegetables. You are putting pea protein in the product as well.

but for the most part, your top ingredients are things like rice and vegetables. I know that you acquired some of the technology from Ocean [00:28:00] Hugger Foods. which was a, a company started by David Benzaquen that, that went under, but I think had some interesting technology that now you own. So what is it like, how are you turning whole vegetables into something that actually resembles fish without subjecting it to all the type of isolation, fractionation, extrusion, and other things that you do to plant proteins, to make them taste like meat.

Yves Potvin: Yeah, that's, you know, I, I think both, like my analogy with, my friend, the painter, the artist. I think this is my best work. Okay, because it, you know, and my wife and I travel all over the world. We love food and I'm always because of my chef background. What's the difference between a 3 star, a 2 star, a 1 star or a good restaurant?

It's ingredients and the way you put the ingredient to get, you know, 2 [00:29:00] stars and doesn't use process way to put the food on your table. It's just the way they assemble the way they think about food. And so, for us, it was for me, it was going back to my route. How do we put clean ingredient together?

And then develop some know how, like the rice is flat, flat frozen. We use the tuna as an organic tomato. And we did use some of the ocean hugger, know how, but we quickly realized the way, the reason They went under is because the product was $15 a kilo to manufacture, and by the time you commercialize it, every sushi place was saying it's too expensive.

So in business it's, it's, it's important to have a good product, but it's important to have a good product that is affordable. Mm-hmm. and, and very happy to say that we're the first. Plant based product that is not any more expensive than it's come to part for, [00:30:00] you know, if you have sushi roll at whole food or tuna, it's 899.

That's what you're going to pay for a product and this has been 1 of the big challenge for people who are flexitarian. They say, I want to eat more plant based, but why is it twice? Why is it 25 percent took that? We take that equation. It's not any more. It's better for you. It's better for the planet. And so, yeah, we've developed some unique, technique to incorporate ingredient and it's more like a baking or a culinary, expertise that we brought into the Konscious portfolio product. 

Paul Shapiro: Interesting. So let me ask you on the price parity issue. You know, some of these products are 25 percent more, but more often I see it at like 2 or 3 times more like 2 to 300 percent more. And there are a couple of times, you know, I don't want to throw ice on the parade, but there are a couple of [00:31:00] times where I've seen price parity reach.

It's very rare. 1 of them, I was in the UK and I went to KFC and I saw that Quorn - Q. U. O. R. N. - was being was being sold at KFC for the same price as it was 6 99 or 6 99 pounds. I guess that isn't dollars, but it was the same the same price as their chicken sandwich. But it's very rare. It's extremely rare that you see price parity between these products and their incumbent counterparts.

And so, yeah. I want to delve into that because you mentioned that the Ocean Hugger technology is 15 a kilo. I don't know what higher end tuna costs, but I would be surprised if it was cheaper than that. I don't really know. I have no idea. But, you know, that's, you know, like, what would that be like? 7 a pound or so? 

Yves Potvin: Yeah, it doesn't seem that crazy to me. Yeah, but the problem with the, the ocean is that was 15. 15. Yeah. But at the end of the day, you only have about 40% [00:32:00] yield or 50% yield because there was a marinade inside, et cetera, and it was a big bag, and the product was well liked by the sushi chef, but it was too expensive.

Yeah, no, 2 million about, seven to about $13 a pound. But it was the usage. It was much more complicated than got it. Right. 

Paul Shapiro: Right. So then, so if you get only half the yield, then, I mean, it's really like 30 dollars a kilo. 

Yves Potvin: So, for example, we're launching in about a couple of weeks to all 500 Whole Food exclusively, a line of roll and we are the 1st.

We are the only 1 that really that makes things so proud. Plant based snow. And so the next product you should try is our California roll because that's the big, you know, 50 percent of the rolls sold in a sushi restaurant is California and 90 percent of the California roll sold in a sushi [00:33:00] place is made with fake crab.

That is Pollock and artificial flavor, artificial color, et cetera, et cetera. So, so we're launching. So, with Whole Foods, for example, we are doing a tuna block that is 7 inch by 1 1 2 inch by 1 inch, because they can cut it. In a little square, put it in a row, and it's very easy to do that. So, you know, you can, we can do this kind of stuff with, Ocean Hugger, technology.

And so this represents the tuna belly that that's what they do in the sushi restaurant. And so we're very excited to launch a nationwide with Whole Food exclusively. and so it's going to be dual. We're going to be in a frozen area and we're going to be in the fresh. With the brand Konscious.

Paul Shapiro: Very cool.So, and this will be price competitive with the, with the, 

Yves Potvin: Yeah, nice. 

Paul Shapiro: Well, I can't wait to try it. [00:34:00] That'll be, that'll be a lot of fun for me to to go do that. you have mentioned before, in in other interviews, the protein issue. And so I'm wondering, like, these products, because they're made from whole vegetables, they do have some protein added to them, but because they're made from whole vegetables, obviously, they have less protein than fish.

Do people do people care? That's my question. Is there, is there people going out there buying sushi because they want the protein? Like, are they not going to buy this because it has less protein than conventional fish? 

Yves Potvin: Well, I sent a question last week to sort of, an investment, interview. And I said, how many people go, first of all, we quite often have too much protein in our diet, 

Yves Potvin: People want too much protein, whatever protein it is.

And nobody goes to a sushi restaurant, thinking, okay, let me see how much protein am I having in that roll today. And actually another, [00:35:00] one thing they should, they should really look at is, you know, the average, sushi roll in a restaurant contain a thousand milligrams sodium. And ours is about a 3rd of so we, we probably have half of the protein, but is it something we do use protein in our product?

But we are, you know, we have a whole team of chef and food scientists that are working with different ingredients right now to see how we can increase the level of protein. Because this is 1 of the question, but we have vitamin B12. we have omega 3, yeah. You know, it's about putting a product together that has all the nutritional benefit without having the downside.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah, yeah, cool. So what, what in the snow crab, what is the vegetable? What, what is the product that is actually made from?

Yves Potvin: That's no problem. we do use, the main, the main ingredient for the snow crab is konjac. [00:36:00] Oh, cool. And konjac is a root vegetable. from Asia, that has, it's a dietary [INAUDIBLE], has tremendous, binding, potential, and it's good for you.

And it's very, very, interesting. The Japanese have a whole, way of using konjac, but that's the main ingredient we use for, to root vegetables. 

Paul Shapiro: Yeah, very cool. Yeah, I, I certainly am familiar with konjac, but I'm glad for people who are listening who may not be. That's great. I, you know, 1 idea for this obviously is to use mycelium because it is a whole food that has a lot of protein.

And I'll tell you the, my wife's favorite plant-based fish sticks. I think I like the Gardein fishes fillets a lot. I think those are so good. but the Quorn, fish sticks, which sadly they discontinued in the U S but they still sell in Europe are so good and, you know, they're made from, they're made from mycelium also.[00:37:00] 

but anyway, it's a cool ingredient because you get this whole food that's unprocessed that also happens to have a meat like texture with high protein content, which is quite good.

Yves Potvin: We have mycelium in our lab right now in our research center. We're trying to incorporate it. In our product to, you know, there's new ingredient coming on a regular basis.

The plant-based world is. It's so vast, you know, contact is an ingredient, for example, that is well used in Asia, not really well known in America. It's a beautiful ingredient, clean. and that's, that's why we're using it. So. 

Paul Shapiro: You mentioned how vast the plant-based world is, and we talked earlier just briefly about some of the hard times of the plant based meat world has fallen on lately.

there's lots of companies that are going out of business. Lots of companies are doing major layoffs. Investors by and large, many of whom were tourists in this space have now gone to happier beaches to go to like, and so on. [00:38:00] why, why do you think it is like, why is it that a few years ago plant based was the hottest way to attract investment and now it's quite cold?

Yves Potvin: Well, Paul, as you know, you know, you know, the Very Good Butchers in Canada that went, they, they, they approached me to be part of the company for 5 years ago and I kind of told him that, guys, you can't sell 4 sausages for 9 a pound 9 and expect to. You know, like, conquer the world, the price has to be competitive.

And again, are you the 1st anniversary? Different? Well, there was 500 company in the US. We're doing the same kind of product. yes, they kind of jump on the bandwagon of the Beyond Meat to when public and. You know, unfortunately, investor are not that smart in that sense a little bit. Remember the dot com that [00:39:00] you had an idea, you can get a million dollars for your idea.

And it became like this a little bit for the plant-based protein. I think that anybody who had an idea or products, let’s invested because that's going to take over the world. you know, there was a, there was a journalist from a Canadian newspaper asked me, I said, so was the plant-based was just a phase?

I said, no plant-based -- plant basis. I came in and that's that, you know, and it's only essentially there was, something at 500 car manufacturer in North America. Well, a lot of them were not producing good. A lot of them were not profitable. A lot of them. Therefore, you know, eventually there's only 4 or 5 manufacturers.

The plan is the same way. It seems people, a lot of people don't apply base because they want to change the world and that's good. At the same time, eventually you have to, you have to have a profit. That's not enough time for investor to keep investing, investing, investing in a business without seeing a return.

[00:40:00] So a lot of, a lot of business were mismanaged. and you have a big injection cat and suddenly open plant in different part of the world. and not looking at your marketing. Everybody. A business needs a proper margin to function. And so it's a business also an investor expect a return. And it's not, it's not only good to be a dreamer.

You have to be an operator also. 

Paul Shapiro: What is a proper margin? 30%, 40%? Like what to you is a proper margin for a successful food business? 

Yves Potvin: Yeah, I think 40 percent is an acceptable gross margin. For a sustainable business, you can't operate with a 15, 20 percent gross margin. You don't have enough money to reinvest because, you know, you need to build the marketing to sustain the brand and you need to reinvest in your brand.

So, so I think the plant base has a great future. [00:41:00] But I think it's going to be, you need to, and that's why for me, it was important to bring my team back together because I can trust them. I know what they can do. It's just not an idea. It has to be a sustainable idea. And you are in business yourself.

You understand how difficult is you mentioned earlier. 90 percent of the business don't make it the first 5 years. It's so difficult to start a business. No wonder. People don't want to start business, and it doesn't matter if you've done it once or twice or the 3rd time, there's still many, many challenges that are unforeseen and I think the stronger one will survive and will thrive.

Eventually, it's not like you need you need to, you need to bring profit to be able to reinvest in your business. 

Paul Shapiro: Yeah, you know, it's funny you say that I was talking with 1 person who is a serial entrepreneur and I asked him, you know, what was [00:42:00] the, what was the biggest trait that he had that he thought made him keep on doing this?

He said, I think hardheadedness. I said, I'll tell me what you mean. He said, well, most people, when they beat their head against the wall, people say, Hey, stop beating your head against the wall. Your head's going to break. And I say, okay. I think the wall breaks first. And so, yeah, that's like, you know, what it's like to, to, to try to do this.

It's, it's so difficult. And I think a lot of people in the plant based space, they saw the success that Beyond Meat had and the IPO to like, I think it was like a 30 X multiple over their revenue, like, you know, completely same with actually, which were, you know, totally anomalous and, you know, now they're trading at like 3 X revenue.

So these are. Yeah. You know, really, difficult lessons to learn, for folks, but you have said that Konscious is going to be profitable within just a year, just a year. So how are you going to do that? Like you brought in this, you brought in this outside investment, you put in investment of yourself, a lot of these companies, you know, they, especially these highly funded companies, they take years, [00:43:00] sometimes even before putting a product out on the market at all.

But you're saying that within a year, Konscious is going to be a profitable company. How so?

Yves Potvin: Well, it's a question of volume. you need, you need, to, have a certain amount of volume to cover your overhead. And so we are growing very fast. we're going from, 200 store, 4 months ago to 4, 000 store in about 2 months.

So, high growth. and that brings the production check, you know, you're in manufacturing. We know what that means. you know, we're going from 100 case a day to 1000 case a day to 2000 case a day. And that's why we need a SWAT team like I have that I can depend on. And we, we have pulled a state of New York facility with high volume capacity.

And once you reach a certain level of sales, then you have a break [00:44:00] even and you're profitable. And we understand our margin. We understand our costs. And that is key again, at cost accounting, the proper procurement person, the proper, you know, we, I mean, it took us 2 years to put Konscious in the marketplace. Why, because we did a lot of homework about what is it going to take back to profitability.

And I think, you know, there's a lot of money to be invest in plant-based protein. A lot of people are on the sideline right now. Why? Because they say, show me your path to profitability. Because, you know, not making money for years. Maybe this is a time in the past. And if you have good margin, and you can show me that's a profitability, it's sure how invested to that.

You know, I've had a couple of home run, you know, so they say, well, the guy knows what he's doing right? They saw the risk, away, but, you know, I think, you mentioned a couple of company as, you know, Impossible. And beyond reason, the [00:45:00] challenge of being public. The good thing is that once you go public, you have a lot of, cash injection and value is good so you can, grow the business.

But analysts are only a patient for so much. And a little bit, little bit. What happened, I think with Tesla, when my son was 15, who called me, you know, which I had chatting and said, dad, I think you should short Tesla. My 15-year-old son is telling me to short Tesla. Every analyst in the world was telling everybody to short Tesla, and I didn't short Tesla because I don't believe in this kind of stuff that to, to invent a bet in a negative way.

And, and, and, Tesla proved the world wrong that they survive and, you know, they're the leader in electrical car. So the analysts. You know, I have a journalist that says the quality, the plant-based, it was a fad. and who said that was the [00:46:00] owner of LightLife and, and, you know, well, 90, 95 percent of his business is meat.

So it's, I said, be careful who's saying it. Because for him by saying that you benefit his other basis. You know?

Paul Shapiro: Yeah, that's an interesting point, for sure. And, I, I, I, I have been following Tesla for some time and I, you know, I've always thought that. People who bet against Elon Musk are probably not in the wise place.

he's proven time and time again that he's pretty resilient. in fact, I don't know how many people have been serially successful as plant-based meat entrepreneurs. I can't think of any who have done multiple successful exits in the space aside from you. But maybe you're like the Elon Musk of plant-based maybe, you know, Yves Potvin is the Elon Musk of plant-based here.

Yves Potvin: Well, I think, you know, number one quality of entrepreneur. And serial entrepreneurs perseverance when everybody is going to everybody's going to stop and say, we can't do it. Listen, my extrusion technology, I thought was going [00:47:00] to spend, I bought a pilot technology and I thought it's going to cost 2 million to set it up.

It cost me 8 million to stay with that. So you can say you're so stubborn that you're going to make it work. And most people quit along the way and say, this is not going to might as well cut your loss. So, yeah, I think I'm a very perseverant person. I believe in what I do. And it's, it's painful sometime. As, you know, you've experienced pain and I think, you know, Musk said from point 1, he said at one point, he said, my friend, when they, you know, because, yeah. I mean, this guy does major business with the SpaceX, all that kind of stuff. And one of his friends says starting a business. It's like, it's like chewing on glass. You know, it's so painful. And so you have to believe in it and you have to. You have to see the light that unit. [00:48:00] So, yeah, 

Paul Shapiro: yeah, for sure.

I have often said that if you want to know what it's like to try to run a business, just become very comfortable with rejection, rejection from everybody, customers, investors, whatever it may be, like, just be prepared for rejection. and eventually you can, you know, if you're fortunate and you do the right things and you'll still prevail.

You know, it's like the great philosopher, Rocky Balboa, who said that in life, you know, in life, it's not about how hard you can hit it is about how hard you can get hit. And keep moving forward. That is how, how I view this thing. So let me ask you, you've, you've had a lot of success. I'm sure as you noted that, you know, you didn't do this alone, that many people have been involved with these successes with you.

but were there any resources that were useful for you? Like any things that somebody's thinking, wow, I hope that I can be more like Yves Potvin, were there any things that you read or heard or saw that you thought this was really useful for me in my journey?

Yves Potvin: You know, I believe in mentorship.[00:49:00] I, since day one, I had mentor and I really encourage young entrepreneur to find a mentor.

I believe somebody with a little gray hair, somebody who's been there, somebody who's been through a few war and understand, the journey of it. And, and, you know, entrepreneur quite often end up in a trash fighting in a trash. And it's important to go on a mountain and look at the big picture. So, but I, I'm an avid, believer in learning.

I mean, 25 years ago, Brian Tracy was, I was reading everything from Brian Tracy. Because about how to work in a business, how to, how to function in a business, but, you know, every book about entrepreneur - In the Seat book, the, The 90 book ,print book, I read all those books because there's so many lessons, about what they've done, what they've done during journey and [00:50:00] there's a lot of similarity.

In entrepreneurial journey, and if most of the, like, the projection that you mentioned is. Is when people don't believe in people say, it's a who's going to eat this stuff. You know, my, my, my brother said, what are you doing? I was close. There's no market for that. And, you know, and, well, the 1st year he was 235, 000, 2nd year, 600, then a 1M, then 2, then 4, then 8, you know, so that's people like me that that needed. 

Paul Shapiro: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Very cool. I'm going to link to some of the books that you mentioned in there, which, certainly I, I really enjoyed as well, especially the, the book by the Nike's co-founder, Phil Knight, which is called a Shoe Dog, which is a really good. 

Yves Potvin: Yeah, it's a really good one.

Paul Shapiro: Talks about just how many near death experiences the company had prior to, prior to finally succeeding. So [00:51:00] finally, let me ask you, like, obviously you've started now 3 companies you've had. Yeah. These different chapters in your life. I imagine there are other ideas that you have that you hope somebody will do in the world that you're probably not going to get to because now you're working on Konscious.

So are there any ideas that you hope that some listener of this show will pursue themselves and start their own company doing. 

Yves Potvin: You know, Paul, I, I, you know, I, I, lecture at different university entrepreneurship program. And there's always a student that raises arm and say, what is the next greatest idea?

And I always say, well, you know, you should know, because there's something in your life that's missing. And, you know, when I came up with the idea of sushi and plant-based seafood, I started putting the dots together, you know, like there's 20,000 [00:52:00] restaurants, sushi restaurants in the U. S. There's 5, 000 poke bowls, we're running out of tuna -- of this, of seafood.

And why is it? Somebody say, why is there's no frozen sushi? Well, our product, I'm not sure the method that you use, but you could let it defrost for 3 hours ready to eat. You can put the microwave for a minute. It's ready to eat. You put in hot water for, 8 minutes, ready to eat. You can't do that with fish.

You're going to have food poisoning. So it's about everybody has idea. Ideas are a dime a dozen. It's what you do with the idea. So I always tell the student, look at what's missing in your life and what you would like to see. And that's an idea possibly you should pursue. 

Paul Shapiro: Interesting. Yeah, I always joke, you know, people who say, well, I have an idea.

It's worth something. It's like, well, you know, I could say that I had an idea 20 years ago to have a supercomputer in my pocket, but that doesn't mean I invented the iPhone. Right? Yeah. [00:53:00] Yeah. There's a difference between having an idea and actually executing.

Yves Potvin: And doing it. Yeah. Ideas is a dime a dozen. It’s what we do with it.

But everybody has a good idea. Are you willing to act on your idea? 

Paul Shapiro: Indeed, indeed. Well, I'm very grateful to you for acting on your ideas because I have been a consumer of yours for now, about 30 years, actually. 

Yves Potvin: A long time. That’s why you look so young.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah, indeed. It's all from eating Gardein and Yves’ and then and today and Konscious today for the first time.

And to answer your question, I microwaved it. I did think about doing the warm water, but the idea of getting it in like just a minute as opposed to eight minutes was more attractive. 

Yves Potvin: Yeah, it's definitely convenient. It’s a pleasure talking to you, Paul.  

Paul Shapiro: Yves, it’s my pleasure. Great to chat here. Good luck with Konscious and I look forward to seeing what happens with the company as you grow it into obviously a multi million-dollar business that's going to help turn the tide for the oceans here. [00:54:00] 

Yves Potvin: Thank you so much.