Will Fungi Free Fish? Anne Palermo is Betting on Fermentation at Aqua Cultured Foods

Anne Palermo: [00:00:00] Most people want to help the world. Most people want to eat better, but many of them just can't afford the price premium that's on alternative proteins or plant-based proteins. And I feel like the alternative protein world in general is on a really good track to drive the price down. But we are at that unique advantage right now we are scaling up.

Biomass. Fermentation is not as expensive as other forms of. Alternative protein production.

Paul Shapiro: Welcome to the business for good podcast to show where we spotlight companies, making money by making the world a better place. I'm your host, Paul Shapiro. And if you share a passion for using commerce to solve many of the world's most pressing problems, then this is the show for you.

Welcome friends to the 83rd episode of the business for good podcast. I hope you enjoyed the last episode with biodegradable packaging company footprint. I was really impressed by how far the company has come in, such a short amount of time, both with its innovations and its sales to major food companies from beyond meat to ConAgra.

[00:01:00] So if you didn't listen to it, go back and check out episode 82, since it is certainly an inspirational one. Now, speaking of inspir, If it is inspiration that you are after this episode is sure to deliver because Anne Polomo and I started talking about a year ago when she had this idea for a company and wow.

Has she come a long way in that past year? As you hear in this interview, Anne is a former asset manager at Morgan Stanley who decided mid-career. That she wanted to start her own chocolate company after growing her first startup to millions of revenue, this mom of three left the chocolate industry. And because she got hooked on the need for animal free protein and she pivoted to start a new company focused on saving the oceans and began by growing my cilium the root like structure of fungi, just on wet pieces of cardboard in her own kitchen.

And to her present surprise Anne found that she could tune the cilium into various kinds of whole muscle seafood mimicry. The result. Is that aquacultured foods was born fast forward to today. [00:02:00] And Anne has raised millions of dollars. Hired staff, filed provisional patent applications, partnered with a major food company and more Anne's vision involves turning the tide on the war that humanity is waging on oceanic animals while still allowing seafood lovers to enjoy their favorite foods.

But just made via fermentation rather than fishing. I'll let her tell you the story herself. I now give you aquacultured food CEO and Polomo and welcome to the business for good podcast.

Anne Palermo: Hi Paul. I'm really excited to be here. Thank you so much for the

Paul Shapiro: invitation. It is my pleasure. I'm so glad that we are talking officially here because you and I have been talking for more than a year now about your idea.

When we first started, you were telling me that you were growing my Tillium in your own. I think you even told me it was like on like, oh, could you be like growing it on cardboard pieces in your kitchen? Is that right? Is that, is that, am I remember that?

Anne Palermo: Correct? You have a really good memory. Yes. Yes. I mean, I've in the very, very, very early stages of what I was doing when I was doing all kinds of [00:03:00] different tests.

I did start just familiarizing myself with different types of my CEL and it, I was trying to grow it in a way that I thought could potentially scale. And so I was just using some damp cardboard in order to grow my CEL. It was really fond and interesting experience. I had a lot of it in my. Pantry. I gotta tell you the smell was overwhelming.

Paul Shapiro: that's really funny. Well, at least you had very low cap X. It, you know, it's a good thing outta curiosity. Like where were you getting the SPOs? Like, how were you even obtaining them? You ordering them online or what.

Anne Palermo: Oh, yeah. Well now we can order things online. Yes. But in the very early stages, I was just using different mushrooms.

So what you can do yeah. Is you can grow my CEL yourself on just using the stems of mushroom stems. So in the very, very, very early stages of what I was doing, that was what I was doing. It. Feel like it was a good thought exercise and it was a fun, I guess, bit of my overall story things have obviously changed since then, but I'm the [00:04:00] kind of person that really just enjoys learning how things are made, how they're formed, just what the process is, how by tweaking different things such as temperature, humidity.

Just the type of, at that time mushrooms, we were using how the overall taste texture of a, of an item can really change. So I think that during those times, it really helped to spark my early interest and just ability to see what I was potentially doing and where it could

Paul Shapiro: go. Well, before we go there, because I am intensely interested in hearing about that path from how you started growing mushroom stems in your kitchen on wet cardboard.

To raising millions of dollars and, and getting ready to commercialize products. Let's talk about what happened to Anne Polomo before this all happened. So this isn't your first entrepreneurial rodeo, right? I mean, you had a, a pretty illustrious career before, so I know you were an asset manager at Morgan Stanley and then you've started your own company.

So after you left the financial world to start your own company, what'd you do, what were you starting up and why did you do. [00:05:00] Well, you

Anne Palermo: know, I was very, as you mentioned, I was very heavily into finance at the time and it was great to me. It was a great experience. However, it wasn't really true to my authentic self.

I was always very entrepreneurial. I was very interested in health and wellness side of life in general. And so I went back to school to learn more about food science, culinary, innovation, food tech, and that really sparked my interest and next level entrepre. So upon graduation, I started my first company.

It was a PG company in the food and beverage space. I developed some proprietary technology within that company itself on the creation and manufacturing of chocolate. That was a wonderful experience. But again, that wasn't really true to my authentic self with the health and wellness side.

Paul Shapiro: What was it called?

And why did you, you decide chocolate is my new thing. I'm gonna go from, from the financial world to doing a chocolate startup.

Anne Palermo: Honestly, part of the reason that I started in the, the chocolate side is that I just really enjoyed doing making chocolate candies when I was in. [00:06:00] And so I thought, oh, well, this could be a fun experience.

And so I was trying to take the really high end and elevated chocolate and bring it to mass market. That was, again, it was a great experience. However, I wasn't really as passionate about chocolate as I was about health and wellness. So I pivoted that to a healthy snack and I developed some more proprietary technology around the use.

And the process of manufacturing, a soft centered high protein candy that did not use any protein isolates whatsoever. So the nutritional profile on that was very similar to a kind bar. The taste of it was more similar to like an elevated Reese peanut butter cup. It was a really exciting product. I grew it to a multimillion dollar run rate within nine or 12 months of the relaunch of that product.

But what I'm most proud of with that experience was the fact that I was able to really learn all about different [00:07:00] types of alternative proteins and different protein isolates that were out there, how they worked with each other. And so during the product development of that stage of that product, I.

Started to do more research into the alternative protein industry. And I got very, just fascinated about all the capabilities and what's going on with fermentation and was really fascinated about fermentation in General's ability to create high quality proteins that are not, you know, they're not necessarily processed.

Our products are not processed. So they are very high in levels of bioavailable, nutrition, and micronutrients really high in naturally occurring proteins and fibers. Plus, one thing that I'm really passionate about with this product is we were able to attain a 70% hydration level, which is very, very similar to traditional seafood in the hydration level of seafood.

So the texture is just very, you know, it's very gorgeous and it's replicates that of like a sushi or a Sahimi or just any kind of raw seafood.

Paul Shapiro: So what [00:08:00] happened to your chocolate company? And so if you're doing millions in revenue, like, did you shut it down? Did you sell it? Like, what was the end of your line with it?

So

Anne Palermo: what ended up happening is we rebranded the product and from a packaging that was just. It wasn't great. Got admit our early packaging just wasn't great. And then we changed it and overnight quadrupled sales and we were using a proprietary process again, that I developed and we couldn't, and our current manufacturer just wasn't able to keep up with the demand.

I was told that. We put in a really massive order one day. And I remember it distinctly. It was in the August and we put in a, a very large order and the new COO just told us, oh, well, we can't, we don't have any production line time until the spring. So in essence, we had six months of no manufacturing and we ran out of product.

And it was a story that has been told many times of growing too [00:09:00] fast. That was frustrating. I still own all the IP on that. And who knows maybe one day I'll bring it back because it's just a fantastic

Paul Shapiro: product. I presume there, there weren't investors in the company, it was all

Anne Palermo: boots strap. Exactly. It was all bootstrapped.

And so I've learned a lot from that experience, which is why we rather than, you know, which is why we started fundraising as early as we did now. We didn't even try fundraising with the old one and we had a sell story that was so fantastic. It would've raised money pretty quickly, but I think it was just, my interest was more on the alt protein side by then.

And I just wanted to create something. That I felt had the ability to change the world for the better and felt in the alternative protein space and just alternative seafood in general, being such a market white space. I knew I had the ability to change people's lives on a global level and. That is just the excitement.

The opportunity to save lives was so much, so much stronger for me than worrying about a past business. I just kind of took that experience and learned a lot from [00:10:00] it. And now know, I think any kind of experience, as long as you learn from it. Is going to help you in, in so many ways that you don't even understand at the time.

And I think now having those experiences, I'm in such a better place in order to manage

Paul Shapiro: growth. Nice. So I understand why you would want to do something that does more good in the world and that could save lives as you mentioned, but what was the original motivation? Like how did you even know about alternative proteins?

How did you know that seafood was a white space? Were you reading something? Were you watching something? Did you hear about it from some organization? Like, what was it. Initiated that motivation for

you

Anne Palermo: an well, just being in the food and beverage industry, it was really easy to see what was happening in alternative in the alternative food space, you know, with alternative milks and dairy and, and just kind of seeing what was happening there and then learning.

Why, why is this happening? Why is there so much need, why is it growing so quickly? And then you learn about 2 billion. People are gonna be born on earth in 30 years. That is amazing. You know, our global population is approaching 10 billion people, current [00:11:00] methods of protein production, as far as animal husbandry, as far as agriculture, as far as aquaculture just can't sustain that kind of demand on our food system.

There has to be a better way. And I've always been really, really interested in giving back and I've always been wanting to, you know, just find a way to make the world a better place. And so I was just during my reading, as I was doing a lot of product development for that snack company, I was just always drawn towards alt protein as just really trying towards the cause and the problems that are out there.

And once, you know, and as I started to do more and more of. My own product development. And I started to realize that, Hey, I could have an impactful difference. I can make a true, meaningful change. I can help solve all the problems that are going on with the ocean. I can help feed, you know, feed people globally with the nutritional product.

Why not? Why wouldn't I? And so I jumped [00:12:00] in with both feet.

Paul Shapiro: Very cool. Well, let's talk about how you jumped in then and because most of the time, when people think about fermentation, they're thinking about like steel tanks and tubes, basically, they're thinking about Biore reactors, or maybe they're thinking about beer breweries.

That's not the kind of fermentation that you are doing though, to my knowledge, you are not using bio reactors. You're you're doing something else. So what is it? I know you started out very rudimentary with these wet pieces of cardboard, but what is the type of fermentation that you're doing? If it ISN.

Submerging some type of microorganism into a liquid and creating something inside of a Biore reactor.

Anne Palermo: So what we're doing is we are using we're doing biomass fermentation, so we're growing whole sheets of this material, this protein, and we're growing it in whole sheets and using a process called surface adhesion fermentation.

So, what we're doing is we are right now in front of our research right now is we're really optimizing our feed stock in order to increase the nutrition, increase and speed up the growth time. Really get that texture [00:13:00] nailed feed our microorganisms, the best food that it needs in order to create the highest quality product possible.

What I love about this type. Fermentation is the fact that it is so scalable and has the ability to have multiple facilities for the growth material globally speaking. It's gonna really help us to, if we have a, a facility, you know, in a couple places in the us, it'll help us. If we have facilities in Asia and Africa and.

It'll help to shorten and shorten up that supply chain. So we're not gonna have the same kind of issues with getting product and getting protein and getting food to everybody globally. Like what was seen during the COVID epidemic and just all the food shortages. But I digress . How we're doing it is we're, we're using stacked trays.

And so some of our patents right now, so we have three patents pending and one of 'em is specifically around how we're doing that. But yeah, it's a process that is using stacked trays, kind of similar to mushroom farming only we're using liquid or a dissolved [00:14:00] substrate versus a solid substrate.

Paul Shapiro: So it sounds kind of similar to what natures find also in Chicago says that they are doing in, in their own public comments about their process, where they're using basically shallow trays with some type of a liquid nutrient media and growing their MyUM in it in stacked trays.

So it's interesting that these two companies, both in Chicago are interested in doing that same technique. And in fact, Anne, you are not the very first Chicago mesil entrepreneur to come on the show. Are you familiar with microcycle? I'm not no. So Joanne Rodriguez came on our show, she's their CEO, and they're basically using my sodium to degrade construction waste.

So it's a bio remediation startup, but they're doing some really cool things. She's based in Chicago, too. But for anybody who was interested in learning more about the uses of my sodium for a bio remediation and breaking down things that are otherwise perceived as UNB break downable, then you can go back and listen to the microcycle episode.

And we will include that in the show notes for this episode at business for good podcast [00:15:00] dot. But it sounds like a really interesting and cost effective way to grow your MyUM. And so I, I can't wait to try this product. I've had the, have you had the corn fish sticks? Q U or N fish sticks?

Anne Palermo: I'm very familiar with corn.

Yes, I have. I've not tasted their fish sticks though. I have to admit, I do a lot of my grocery shopping right now using delivery services and the ones that I'm currently using don't have it, but I, I know I should. Our product developer has had it, so that's good. That's telling so ,

Paul Shapiro: well, my wife and I love the corn fish sticks.

They are phenomenal. And I especially like that when you buy the corn products that there's not plastic in them. It's just basically a cardboard box with. Product in there, but you are not doing something like a fish stick, which is basically a ground up product. And that's chopped and informed into the shape of a stick.

You're doing something that is very different. You're pursuing instead of creating [00:16:00] chopped informed products, which is nearly all of the alternative meat world today from fish sticks to chicken nuggets, sausages, hamburgers, meatballs, and so. You're trying to do whole muscle mimicry, which has been holy grail, that many companies have not been able to crack even big companies with hundreds of millions or billions of dollars.

And yet you are doing this with far less money than they are. So tell us, what is it that you're doing that is achieving whole muscle mimicry through your, my fermentation here? What is it that we're doing? Yeah. Like, yeah. So why, why can you crack this problem and where others

Anne Palermo: haven't? You know, I think it's probably a lot of it has to do with just looking things very, very differently.

You know, this is something that I've, I don't know. That's a, that's a great question. I don't know. I looked at things very differently. I did in a lot of testing on different kinds of products and I think maybe how it came to be is I wasn't. When I initially created the, our version one product, I wasn't setting out to create something specific.

I was going out to create an alternative protein [00:17:00] of some sort, but I didn't know what shape it was gonna be at the time. And so I think just having fluidity and invention kind of helped, I think initially seeing and growing something really, really small and seeing the opportunity with something that was really small and then just tweaking it and growing.

To see how big I can get it. And that's part of the beauty in the, of this product is it's how tuneable it is so we can change our textures and we can change our texture and nutritional profile just by changing things and the composition of our feed stock. By changing the humidity and changing the temperature of the, of the environment in which we're growing our product.

And now, I mean, as, as I mentioned, you know, from where we were, when we started with our V1 to where we are now, things have really changed. We have a lot more science behind it and. In fact it's really exciting. So we just were named a semifinalist with XPR and I'd love to mention that because it was just such the technological rigors that we were put through [00:18:00] is really validating because of all the scientists that read through all of our papers and all of our submission and make sure that everything.

Was just technologically validated by those PhDs. And I just, that's something I like to kind of shout through from the rooftops because of just, yeah, because I don't have a scientific background, but we are bringing on the scientists and, you know, we have we're in the process of bringing on several and just really rounding out our scientific team.

We have a great. Really great lead scientists right now are bringing on a really great microbiologist. And just by I think just the excitement around the product, we've been really able to attract some very high profile hires and I'm excited about it cuz they bring so much

Paul Shapiro: well, that's very cool. And by way of background for folks who aren't familiar, the X prize is currently doing a 15 million competition to see who can come up with the best.

Animal free, either chicken breast or fish filet. So these are whole muscle mimicry. So if you think about how hard it is to do, that's why they're offering [00:19:00] millions of dollars of prize money to companies. If they can do it, cuz nobody's really been able to convincingly do it yet. So there are about 30 different companies that have been named as semifinalist.

Congratulations and on aquaculture being one of. And it's an exciting competition. And we'll see there's companies that are doing fermentation companies, doing plant-based companies, doing cultivated meat from animal cells. So it'll be a cool competition to see, but, and I wanna ask you, so you're talking about getting different textures that can mimic different types of fish species.

From tuning either as you say, the temperature or the humidity and so on, is it all with one strain of fungi or are you utilizing numerous species of fungi? Like, what is your, your toolkit looking like? So

Anne Palermo: right now we are, we're experimenting with different types of species or different St. Types of microorganisms and see about fermenting them together through co fermenting them to see.

How we are able to really tune that, that texture and tune that nutrient. [00:20:00] Rich profile. So you're you are right in

Paul Shapiro: that. Cool. Well, I, I, I don't think I was right. I was just asking since I have no idea, but I wanna ask you, I'll just ask Anne about the business because you know, you are, you know, somebody, you came from the financial world, you decided to do a chocolate startup and you had success and, and then also some challenges.

You're sitting there in your kitchen thinking, Hey, this is cool. Let me experiment with growing mushroom stems on cardboard. At the same time, you are a mom of three. You have no shortage of tasks and responsibilities in your life. And you're thinking, ah, I am going to start my own company. That's gonna do alternative seafood from my SI.

What was your next step? Cause now you've raised a couple million dollars. So I think over a lot of people like that, there's a lot of people who have ideas, but they don't necessarily execute. They don't go out. Raise money and create a company and start hiring people. So that Gulf that you bridged is really, I think where a lot of people who have a cool idea just fail.[00:21:00]

And so what was it like, what are the steps that you took to create the company? How did you start getting in front of investors? What do you think was compelling to them about and why they would put millions of dollars into your.

Anne Palermo: You know, I think a lot of it had to do with the fact that I'm a second time founder.

And so the experience you get and understanding on business really, really helped accelerate that path. But I think what it comes down to is the fact is I wasn't afraid. I'm not afraid to talk to people. I'm not afraid to ask and close deals. Not afraid to ask for introductions. I'm not afraid to just cold reach out, to get, you know, sales partnerships.

And I really think that this, that whole process helped to accelerate things. Plus at the same time, the project that I'm doing really speaks to a lot of people, alternative seafood, it's new and it's different. There's not a lot out there right now, but the opportunity is really big and it is attracting it's attracting industry.

It's attracting. VC funding. It's attracting [00:22:00] scientists attracting global research. And, you know, it's attracting, you know, there's even deep space competitions now where projects like this is attracting potential grants from NASA. And so it just seems like with a mission that's as powerful as this people are already really interested.

And so something that I think I'm doing. Is just executing on that vision and getting the name out there, letting people know we exist talking with people, closing deals and partnerships, and it just kind of starts to snowball from there. But I really think what's important is understanding that no one person can do it all.

And so you have to attract a really great team and you know, my co-founder Brittany Chibi is really fantastic and she's great with a tactical day to day. Making sure that everything gets done. You know, she's just really been fantastic and, you know, attracting our, our lead scientists and Bob Schultz, he comes from NUS.

He has done so much there really developed the [00:23:00] formulation for the fastest growing alternative chicken nugget company in the us. And just what a fantastic marketing side they have. And we have a really exciting and dedicated. Team of advisors on business and science side. And just, I think everybody coming together is creating something truly special, a lot of momentum, and we've just been able to execute our vision very successfully, thus far.

And I think that as we enter into the next stage of our business' growth, we're gonna be able to see that more and more as we start to get more products on the market. So we start to do more tests and retail and food service establishments. We're excited because. We're gonna be having like a taste test trial with a really well known seafood chain.

But it, what we like about it is it's a very down home kind of seafood chain where people know seafood. So we're not testing our products in vegan restaurants. We're testing our products with seafood eating consumers on a day to day basis. So we're excited about that because we're gonna be able to get that [00:24:00] real true feedback from meeting customers.

Our vision is that we're not targeting just the vegans and vegetarians really targeting those, those mainstream meat, eating

Paul Shapiro: consumers. That's great. And that's really exciting. Can't wait to see what the results of those tests are going to show you. Talk about your team. So let me just ask you, the, the company is now a little more than a year old, and you mentioned your co-founder and some scientists, how many folks are employed right now at aquaculture?

Anne Palermo: Full time we have four we're bringing on another scientists at the end of the. And then we have like a culinary advisor who is a part-time offsite, culinary advisor. Who's helping with product development. So I guess that would be around six. We are actively hiring, but you know, a lot of the, I don't think we have a lot of the job descriptions online right now.

We are kind of just. People have been approaching us. And so we've been a little bit deliberate in our hiring strategy, but anybody that's listening to your show, please, I welcome [00:25:00] you to send us a LinkedIn or a submission over our website, just with some interest like your resume or cover letter, just wanting to talk.

We're interested in finding like-minded people that are, you know, really wanting to help. Support the cause and bring really exciting products to market. Well,

Paul Shapiro: that is exciting as you continue to grow the team. So if you have about half a dozen or so positions, now, what about your scale? So how much of these fish products can you produce?

And I know that at least one of the articles that I read about what you're doing, it said that you're pointing to launch six different skews in a thousand different locations. So are we close to that happening?

Anne Palermo: You know, we've pivoted away from that a little bit. Because our original strategy was focused on getting our products into retail right away.

We're focusing more on food service now. And so we have distributor partners that could flip the switch as soon as we're at scale, flip the switch. And we're in those, those thousand points of distribution tomorrow. However, right now, [00:26:00] as I mentioned, we have pivoted away from a focus on grocery to a focus on food service.

And so we are on track for all that. Yes. We're gonna focus on food service cuz that's where about 70% of us consumers eat their, eat their seafood.

Paul Shapiro: It's amazing to see just like what a disparity there is. There's just not that many people who buy fresh seafood in supermarkets. It's really a lot of in food service and restaurants.

So let, let me ask you again. Do you have to file for generally recognized a safe status with FDA? Or is that not something that you think you're gonna have to do because you're already using common ingredient.

Anne Palermo: So we are using ingredients that are generally recognized as safe. All of our microorganisms are grassed.

However, it's really important to us. Just make sure we have all of our bases covered. So we are working with a grass attorney right now in order to make sure that you know, that we have that internal dossier. And we're probably going to end up filing with the FDA. Yes.

Paul Shapiro: And would you start selling before filing with the FDA?[00:27:00]

Anne Palermo: I don't think so. I don't think so. I don't think it's prudent to do that just in case the FDA has any questions. At the same time, I don't anticipate them having any questions. So I guess it's still a bit in the air, but just, I think it's best to just have that kind of confidence, FDA confidence. We're not doing anything could potentially harm anybody.

It's antithesis of our reason for being in

Paul Shapiro: business. . Yeah. Understood. So I do wanna ask you then speaking of the FDA, so the nutritionals that are advertised about your product are, are really impressive. So per serving, which I presume is like three ounces or so you're talking about like around 18 to 20 grams of protein per serving, which seems extremely.

So as you've noted a lot of the alt seafood products, so at least some of them, they're not very high in protein. Some of them they're made from starches and so on, and they might mimic a seafood texture, but they don't have a lot of nutrition associated with them. This though, is there, there are some alternative [00:28:00] seafoods out there, like good catch and corn that do have a good amount of protein, but this is a lot of protein, 18 to 20 grams.

Is that all coming from the Illium. Are there other ingredients that are contributing to the protein? Like how do you get such high protein levels

Anne Palermo: there? Oh yeah. We're also using protein, creating microorganisms as well. It remember, as I mentioned earlier, that we're using Turing together, a couple of different microorganisms.

That's how we're going ahead and getting our proteins.

Paul Shapiro: Oh, I say, cool. So you're not adding protein. ISO it's like P protein. It's coming from the fermentation creating microbes that are actually gonna boost the protein content of the MyUM they're Cod with exactly. Very cool. What an interesting technology.

That's awesome. Good for you. Thank

Anne Palermo: you. Yeah, it's pretty exciting. It's pretty neat. Just the, the opportunity there is, is vast. And so what we're doing is, again, just through that fermentation process, growing our slabs of protein and then post harvesting, we are cutting and forming this protein into the [00:29:00] species that we are replicating.

So we have the ability to create a shrimp or a calamari. And then when it comes to. Crus, but then we can also do fin fish, such as AHI, tuna, and God and grouper. And so what we're doing is we're focusing right now on our calamari fries, because they are the closest commercialization, but also in the us.

There's just when was the last time you were at a fast and family casual restaurant that they didn't have some sort of like a calamari on the. So we feel that by having that kind of product and food service, where we can provide a really delicious substitute, that is an alternative protein at a price that is comparable to what they're already selling or buying in those restaurants.

Like why wouldn't it taste that is. Just as good as or better. Why wouldn't somebody want to jump on that option? Our focus is to really provide fantastic tasting products with better nutrition at a price that is at or better [00:30:00] than the traditional seafood we're replicating.

Paul Shapiro: You know, one of the things that I have long argued and is that most nearly all actually of the plant-based meat app that is out there today is.

Mimicry of chicken or beef or pork. And these things are pretty cheap, but when you start trying to compete against like crab or lobster or calamari, these are actually much more expensive products. And so the, the hurdle to get to, to price parity is actually much, much lower. And so I I'm really impressed to see you trying to compete on those because you can help a, a large number of animals and help on sustainability issues and public health.

And so. And try to compete on cost at the same time, which has largely not been done by some of these other companies in the alternative protein space. And so in addition to it being a white space, I actually think it might be a, a technologically easier thing to do.

Anne Palermo: I agree with you. You're you're spot on with that analysis.

If you can provide a product that tastes as [00:31:00] good as. The traditional product that you're, you're replicating and at a price that people can not only afford, but may even be a little bit more desirable of a price in the long run. Why wouldn't they make the switch? Most people want to help the world. Most people want to eat better, but many of them just can't afford the price premium that's on alternative proteins or plant-based proteins.

And I feel like the alternative protein world in general is on a really good track to drive the price down. But. We are at that unique advantage right now where scaling up biomass fermentation is not as expensive as other forms of alternative protein production. And then we are also hitting making seafood where they are a little bit more expensive to begin with.

So, yeah. Yeah, we are definitely at, at a competitive advantage, I would say with getting the price close to what it needs to be, especially in the food service industry, which is where we're target.

Paul Shapiro: I do wanna ask you Anne, about your partnership with Negros because [00:32:00] you all are a very small, very new startup and you launched a partnership with this Swiss food giant, this massive, massive food conglomerate called Miros based in Switzerland.

And. I'm wondering how did that happen and what is it that you're getting out of this partnership and what are they getting out of it? Yeah.

Anne Palermo: So it's great. Miros is fantastic. So we started our partnership and we're gonna be, we're gonna be bringing to market some products to market with them. We're gonna have a co-branded product under their VLO brand.

And so what's really fantastic about the product. The partnership that we have with them is that we're gonna be able to work with them on getting that early product acceptance. We're gonna help get the product market fit. They're gonna give us access to a lot of their resources for the consumer tasting and do consumer tasting panel and get a lot of consumer intelligence on our product itself.

They're also gonna help us obtain regulatory approval in Europe, which is a huge deal for us [00:33:00] because if we're able to really leverage their experience and their connection in doing. It's going to help us get into other European countries. So this is a great partnership on many, many levels. Plus in addition to that, they are going to foot the bill when it comes to any kind of marketing for the product.

So how it's gonna help us is we're gonna have the ability to have a product that is marketed in Switzerland. Without having to have any cost associated with that marketing, they're gonna help get the word out there. They're gonna help and help us to really grow our brand. And then we're gonna be able to take that story and take those findings, build out our sell story and then sell to other European markets where the tastes are more attuned.

Because one, one thing that has really, really interesting is that. Being from America, you think everybody has the same tastes for a seafood product, but what we're finding and what maybe many other people know and understand, but a shrimp flavor in the us is different from a [00:34:00] shrimp flavor in Thailand, which is different from a shrimp flavor in South Korea, which is different than a shrimp flavor in Switzerland.

And so what they're gonna do is we're gonna help find and tune in on what kind of flavors, a product that part of the world really likes. And then it's gonna help us as we build out. A sales strategy for that part of the.

Paul Shapiro: It's exciting. You're building something from nothing Ann. You're really soaring to some pretty high Heights here, considering that this was just an idea a year ago.

So my hat's off to you on all that you've accomplished so far. And I can't wait to see what more you're going to accomplish before I let you go. I do want to ask you you're a serial entrepreneur. You have had a, a pretty impressive career in a variety of spaces. If there are people looking at you and they're thinking, ah, I really think it's cool.

What Anne Polomo is doing. I wonder how I can be more like her. Are there any things that you've either read or watched or heard that you have found useful in your own journey, any books or anything else that you would recommend to somebody who wants to maybe follow in your footsteps and try to [00:35:00] do something good by starting a business to do good in the world?

Anne Palermo: Yeah. Well, besides

Paul Shapiro: your book, Paul. Yeah, yes. Obviously queen meat is a, is a prerequisite, but aside from reading queen meat, which of course

Anne Palermo: they should do, I really recommend the resources that are available through the good food Institute. They're fantastic, really well researched, and they're all free, which is absolutely phenomenal most of the times in order to gain any kind of access to that sort and type of research, literature and studies.

You have to pay thousands of dollars, but the good food Institute gives it to you for free. So I think anybody interested should really start off there and then kind of figure out where they want to do more research.

Paul Shapiro: Cool. Well, we will link on the business for good podcast.com website, several of those good food Institute resources so that people can go check them out.

That and, and I will say the good food Institute has been extremely helpful for me as well. They really have provided a lot of resources. Lot of [00:36:00] expertise that I agree is, is worth a lot. And they provided all for free. So they really do a great job of achieving that mission to be helpful for folks.

Well there, you have it from Anne Polomo. You've heard the early stage story of aquacultured foods, and hopefully we'll be seeing and tasting a lot more of what Anne and aquacultured have to offer in the years to come. So, Anne, thank you very much for all that you're doing to help save the oceans and we'll look forward to continuing to root for your success.

As the company continues to.

Anne Palermo: Oh, thanks, Paul. Really, really appreciate that. It was, it was such a treat speaking with you today. Thanks for inviting me on.

Paul Shapiro: Thanks for listening. We hope you found use in this episode. If so, don't keep it to yourself. Please leave us a five star rating on iTunes or wherever you get your podcast.

And as always, we hope you will be in the business of doing good.