Paul Shapiro: [00:00:00] Catherine, welcome to the business for good podcast.

Kathryn Cook: Hello. Thanks for having me, Paul.

Paul Shapiro: Hey, it's really great to be chatting with you. We've known each other for a number of years, so I'm glad that we're finally getting to record together because I've been admiring what you are doing. And I'm eager to talk all about that.

But before we get into your role as the queen of chickpeas, I have to ask, you I imagine that your life. Was not destined toward this route. You know, you were a Boeing engineer when you were doing aerospace engineering. Were you thinking one day I'm going to harness the power of chickpeas?

Kathryn Cook: No, the short answer is no.

In fact, I, I grew up in my dad's lab at a university. I mean, in, in. You know in, in concept and growing up in, in kind of a lab and biosciences and plant biology, [00:01:00] I honestly wanted to get as far away from that.

Paul Shapiro: I'm glad that you said, I'm glad you said you grew up in the lab in concept. Cause I was envisioning you as being like a test experiment in your father's lab.

So what we'll get to this in a little bit, but just to be clear, your father was at UC Davis and was researching what?

Kathryn Cook: Yeah, he's, he's spent over 35 years working to understand the genetic controls behind key legume traits, such as nitrogen fixation and how legumes have evolved.

Paul Shapiro: What an amazing career just to focus on the genetics of legumes.

That is really an amazing niche. What a, what a world that that job exists. So, all right, you, you grow up, you're you're not, Actually confined in the lab, but you're metaphorically growing up in this lab and you don't want to have anything to do with legumes. And instead of looking at how to fix nitrogen in the ground, you're looking up toward the heavens and you're thinking, how can I become an aerospace engineer?

Is that, is that how it transpired? [00:02:00]

Kathryn Cook: You know, actually there, there was kind of an intermediary. I. You know, I'm one of those people who grew up loving math and science and trying to figure out what I wanted to do. And so, you know, engineering, general engineering kind of was a very obvious fit for me in college, but as I started taking classes, I started to realize.

I was struggling to understand and connect really with some of the concepts that the math made sense, but not why. And as I got into the, the why, the only set of classes and the only MA major that was able to kind of satisfy that curiosity for me was actually materials engineering. Because it meant going literally all the way to the atomic level of understanding how materials are behaving.

And only then. Did I feel comfortable accepting some of the more, I'll call them more [00:03:00] abstract principles in mechanical engineering or electrical engineering or computer programming languages? So for me, it actually literally started by diving as far as I could into the why. And then aerospace happened to be an application of that for me.

So thinking about the materials that are used on aircraft, thinking about the implications at the chemical level and at the practical level. The processing level that actually enables us to, you know, travel around the globe.

Paul Shapiro: Interesting. And at some point you're traveling around the globe and you're thinking, all right, I'm doing this really cool aerospace engineering.

You have a career that most people would be very envious of working at Boeing. And then you decide you're going to Facebook. Why?

Kathryn Cook: Yeah. So, well, part of it was, part of it was personal. Sometimes we are Pushed out of our comfort zones on our, on our personal life as well. And I was living up in Seattle and my fiance at the time decided he [00:04:00] wanted to move back to California.

And so I started thinking about, you know, where I. You know, what could I possibly do in aerospace in the Bay Area? And I remember getting a call from a Facebook recruiter saying, Hey, we've got a high altitude, long endurance aircraft program. And we've got a technical program manager position open.

We'd like you to apply. And I think immediately I thought this was literally a prank phone call. I said, I, you know, I'm, did you call the right number? Are you sure this is the right thing? Facebook doesn't have any aerospace programs. Right. And the more I got into it, it started to really make sense and it ended up being a really, really good thing.

Good fit for me to transit transition back to the Bay Area, but kind of keep that that tangent right that the work that I'd been doing and there was a common thread.

Paul Shapiro: Do you happen to know Christie Legally from rebellious foods? You know, she was a Boeing aerospace engineer as well, who now is in the alternative meat space similar to [00:05:00] you.

Kathryn Cook: I we never officially crossed crossed paths, but I've I've chatted with her.

Paul Shapiro: Well, yeah, we've done an episode with rebellious foods in the past. We'll link to that in the show notes for this episode at business for good podcast. com. But I think that you two would be you know, two peas in a pod, maybe two chickpeas in a pod, I should say.

For reasons that we'll get into later, but I'm really eager to figure out. How it came to be that you decided, Catherine, that you wanted to go back and do what your father was doing, right? You've gone on this career. You've got these two really great chapters of your career first at Boeing and then at Facebook.

And then, you know, you decide that you want to engineer a better chickpea. So it's not exactly like an obvious path from A to B to C here. So what happened when you were at Facebook that you decided, you know. The world needs a higher protein chickpea.

Kathryn Cook: Yeah. So the, the reality is you just don't know [00:06:00] where your life's going to take you.

And for me, you know, the, the, the kind of ending of my aerospace chapter, if you will, came when I started to realize that all the people around me, they were passionate about aerospace at their core, right? They'd hear You know, here an aircraft flying above and they'd immediately without even looking, they know what model, what, you know, it could describe the engines could just start having a whole conversation.

And that just wasn't my passion per se. So I, I shifted within Facebook and spent a few years working with their voice technology, looking at speech recognition, natural language processing, and did a lot of work with some of their machine learning teams, which was truly Fascinating and eye opening, but after a few years of that, I just started to realize that I felt disconnected with the physical world.

I really missed my materials background. I [00:07:00] missed you know, being able to touch the product that I was working on. And at the end of the day, I didn't feel connected with the impact that I was having. You know, when I thought about. At the very beginning of my, my journey, when I thought about the impact I wanted to be having on society, it was really focused around sustainability and climate resiliency of how we as humans are interacting with our, you know, the, the world around us. So I knew. You know, I knew that I wanted to take a step back and kind of reevaluate where I was headed in life. So I thought about going into a bunch of different, a bunch of different industries and at the end of the day, food and ag really was the trifecta, if you will of, of my past. Careers and where I wanted to have an impact.

I mean, when you think about ingredients or the [00:08:00] food itself, it's just a material. The composition, how we process it impacts the function impacts the nutrition, the taste, the textures. All of that. It really is just a material and not just the, the crops that we select, but the actual varieties that are used to make those ingredients.

We have an ability through plant breeding and through plant genetics. To actually create positive impacts, not just when we think about agriculture and we think about the sustainability and, and the climate impact of our food system, but rather how we think about the ingredient properties themselves.

And so for me, That really met the materials. A lot of the data work I've been doing kind of had some some parallels, though I'm not a geneticist, some parallels in the plant science world and then the ability to really greatly impact human health and and our our climate. [00:09:00] Gave me the confidence to kind of make this big leap away from anything I understood and, and kind of going into a very different sector.

Paul Shapiro: And was the idea always that you were going to start your own company or are you thinking maybe I should join a company and do something in this space? Like why actually start your own venture?

Kathryn Cook: So, so this, this actually gets back to, to my dad. So I, I was living at the time in Redwood City in the Bay Area and, you know, Impossible Foods was really in my backyard, if you will.

I started to kind of follow what they were doing and kind of the mid 2010s and, you know, thought maybe I'll, I'll join in that, that. Alternative protein movement. And as I started chatting, literally, you know, sitting around the dinner table, talking to my dad about, you know, leaving my, my job and kind of the job security I had and completely changing my career, [00:10:00] I was telling him about, you know, why I wanted to do that and everything.

And, and I asked him, how's everything going in your neck of the woods? And he said, Interestingly enough, we've been talking about protein in our lab and, and kind of the, the human health and nutrition, even though that is absolutely, and, and hasn't really been a focus for him ever in, in in his research, right, it was focused on nitrogen fixation, focused on soil microbes, focused on general legume genetics and he started saying, you know, we've through, you know, this, this this, this journey, which I can touch on in a minute, we've discovered that we can greatly change the protein content and protein profile of chickpeas.

And I said, well, there's, there's clearly something there, you know, is this something that should stay in research? Or is this something that needs to actually make it into the hands of consumers to have a positive impact on them? on this alternative protein movement. And so it was [00:11:00] really through a series of conversations over about six months that we started to get really confident and, and excited about this idea of taking a very unique germplasm library that he had developed and making it accessible to the consumer by, by commercializing it.

Paul Shapiro: So let's talk about we're going to talk about how you did that, but let's talk about why it's even important, right? Like, why does it matter whether chickpeas have more protein in them? So you mentioned impossible foods. They're already using soybeans. Soybeans are already pretty high protein, right? They have like 30 to 40 percent protein by dry weight.

Beyond meat is using yellow peas, which are about 25 percent protein by dry weight. And chickpeas are not that far behind. They're about like 20 percent protein by dry weight. So why does it matter if we have a more protein packed chickpea or not?

Kathryn Cook: Yeah. So one of the big challenges with, with plant proteins today is really around [00:12:00] flavor function and cost.

Right. And when it comes to soy and when it comes to pea the, the flavor profile is just, it's not. It's not there. It really requires consumers to adapt and as food formulators to really focus on how to mask some of the beaniness flavors that come along with those proteins. And then you add in function, right?

I mean, yellow pea in particular is not a highly functional ingredient. It doesn't have strong gelation. It, it, it doesn't have great emulsification. And when we Think about a lot of these in particular alternative meat products. You, that texture is so important. And so all of a sudden we get this kind of laundry list of ingredients on these labels.

And not only does that cause, you know, us to think [00:13:00] about what we're eating and, you know, start talking about this more minimally processed movement. It also starts. Frankly, just adding into the complexity of our food system. And when we think about, you know, all these different ingredients having to be sourced and moved around the globe.

For me, I start really questioning is that, is this truly the sustainable direction that we want to go? Or is there a better, you know, better tasting, better functioning and economical ingredient out there today? Chickpea protein serves the purpose of flavor and function, but it is way too expensive in comparison to pea and soy.

You mentioned that it, it, at the commodity level, it does have a lower protein content than both of those other other legumes. But it also, at the farm gate level, has a higher price point. And that's because it Hasn't been the focus of big breeding programs. It hasn't [00:14:00] gotten the attention that it deserves when we think about genetic improvement, when we think about yield and yield stability and all of those pieces combined really drive up the cost of chickpea protein to the point that today it's really being used as an, as more of an additive.

Rather than the protein source,

Paul Shapiro: why is it that there's been less focus on yield improvement among chickpeas? I mean, people have been eating hummus for a long time and I don't, I mean, yellow pea I know is used in a lot of alternative meats now, but I feel like that's a relatively recent phenomenon, like in the last decade or so, but chickpeas have been popular for a long time.

So why is it that the yield on chickpeas has not been improved in the way that it has, let's say, for example, the yellow pea?

Kathryn Cook: Yeah, so, you know, if we think back to the, the 1940s, 50s, 60s, that was kind of the timeframe that we had the green revolution, right? There were [00:15:00] concerns about global food security and the need to produce More on on the acreage that was available.

And a lot of focus then went into increasing the diversity in wheat and corn and rice and soybean. And in some of the vegetables, right? P being A vegetable. And so we saw massive increases in yield in those crops that were, you know, really, truly the global staple crops. And one of the challenges that that existed in chickpea, which is actually the key unlock that's behind new Cicero's technology.

So one of the challenges in chickpea is that it turns out when, when chickpea was originally domesticated about seven, 8, 000 years ago, and then through further modern day breeding, what's happened is we've lost about 95 percent of genetic diversity in, in that genus. And. If you go back [00:16:00] into the wild ancestors, the wild relatives and other species in the, in the sicer genus, which is actually where our name comes from new sicer.

You find that there are over 40 different species of chickpea, if you will. And. The ones that diverge in an evolutionary sense, you know, 10, 000 or even 100, 000 years back are still today genetically compatible with our modern day chickpea. And this is, this is actually the research that, that my, my dad who's actually my co founder at, at New Cicer actually went in and, and really evaluated and looked at, collected thousands of samples working with.

You know, the international community and launched a very systematic cross pollination. So, so cross breeding program to really bring that genetic diversity and create a germ plasm library, a physical seed library [00:17:00] that forms the foundation and launching point for crop improvement. And so that you, we think about these other staple crops where that happened You know, many, many, many decades ago, that hadn't happened for chickpea to the level that was required to unlock that bottleneck and now give us a platform that we need to really launch the future of chickpea.

And frankly, we believe that the future staple crop for our food system,

Paul Shapiro: you mentioned your father. And that he's this researcher who co founded the company with you, you are the CEO though, but it's based on his research. So what is his role in the company? If you were running the day to day operations, is it just, he's the co founder because it's based on his research?

Is there some license that Davis has to your technology and future royalties or something like that?

Kathryn Cook: So we have a really great relationship with UC Davis and, and the UC system. We, when we founded the [00:18:00] company we worked with the university and we spun the technology that library and some of the background data we have a license to and that forms the, the, The backbone of new CISR.

Now my dad, Doug is, is started off as our chief scientific officer. So CSO for the company and he and I, and actually a third co founder who was also from his, his lab at the university started the company together and have worked together now for about four and a half years. Doug leading more of the R& D side of it and me, you know, taking that R& D, thinking about how we translate that into a commercial product.

Doug maintains his, his position at, at UC Davis. He really loves teaching and really loves diving into all different areas of plant science. And so the company has now grown to the point that just. Just in last December, I guess we brought [00:19:00] in chief technology officer Sean to really help kind of drive us forward on that R and D on a day to day basis because we've now grown to the point that we need both the technology and then Doug continuing to bring that kind of science aspect of, of Chickpea genetics.

Paul Shapiro: I noticed Catherine, you keep referring to him as Doug. Is that purposeful that you don't refer to him as dad or my father in here? Like when you're doing business and you're in meetings with companies, are you referring to him as Doug?

Kathryn Cook: Yes. Yes.

Paul Shapiro: All right.

Kathryn Cook: You know, it's, I never thought I would start a, start a company, let alone start a company with my family.

And we've, I've. I was clear from the very beginning that launching into this journey, I didn't want to lose my personal relationship with my dad or, or anyone else in the family for that matter, right? You hear about these horror stories where you go into business with family and it doesn't work out.

So one [00:20:00] of the rules I've had from day one is that at work he is Doug and at home he is dad. That has helped me. Yeah.

Paul Shapiro: Interesting. So my, my wife, Tony, and I have tried to engage in some joint projects, which have, I can tell you not been conducive to domestic harmony. So we've abandoned that idea, but her father, his name is George.

He wants to start a company called TNG, which is Tony and George. And yeah, it's unclear what they'll do right now. They don't know what they'll sell, but he wants to do something. So I'll tell them that there's an inspiration with. With Catherine and Doug here. So let's talk about what the company actually does.

So, you know, you're breeding chickpeas that are way higher in protein. How much higher? So if if the old school chickpea is 20 percent protein by dry weight, what's the new slicer chickpea?

Kathryn Cook: Yeah, our, our first generation high protein variety goes up to about 35 percent protein,

Paul Shapiro: which is a huge, huge increase.

Kathryn Cook: Huge increase. It's a 75 [00:21:00] percent increase and actually starts to put it into the range of soybean, which is, you know, none of the other legumes have really achieved at that level.

Paul Shapiro: All right. So you've got a much higher Protein chickpea in terms of yield, though, like if you're talking about being a soybean protein content, are you near soybean productivity yet?

Kathryn Cook: Yeah, so the requirement for our first generation variety, which we launched last year, was that it had to be much higher in protein, kind of a transformational leap. In protein content from commodity chickpea, but that it had to maintain chickpea yields. So you couldn't sacrifice yield for protein. And so right now where we're at is we, from all of the testing and kind of grower feedback, we see.

That we are competitive in from a yield standpoint with other chickpeas. But we're bringing in this added value [00:22:00] of that protein content.

Paul Shapiro: I'm presuming Catherine, the added protein is coming at the expense of lowered fat, right? Like something has to give you're adding more protein. I presume it's less oil or less fat in the chickpea.

Is that right?

Kathryn Cook: Yes, it trades off both fat and your starches. But yes, fat does decrease, which is a really critical aspect of this.

Paul Shapiro: Mm hmm. And so with this impact a let's say somebody wanted to make a higher protein hummus, but the chickpea now has less fat. Does that mean they're adding more tahini?

Like, does it matter in that particular case for a hummus format?

Kathryn Cook: So, you know, a normal chickpea has, let's say 6 to 7 percent oil content. These first generation varieties have between four and a half to 5 percent oil content. So we're not talking about a massive shift in oil when it, when you think about, for example, hummus, where a most of that oil is coming from the tahini and, and, you know, added oil, but that fat content change, that oil content [00:23:00] shift.

Is sufficient to really be a game changer in protein extraction, which is where where we're really focused on that higher protein, lower oil kind of ratio, if you will, but we don't see it impacting hummus necessarily.

Paul Shapiro: Okay, so let's get to the bottom line here. How much cheaper than chickpea protein is it today?

So you've got companies like Nutriati that have been making chickpea protein for various applications, but chickpea protein is way more expensive than soy protein or pea protein or wheat protein. Like right now, if you look at plant based meat, nearly all of it is made from soy pea or wheat chip or a wheat protein.

Or some combination of those three. So chickpea protein has not been in the same league just because of its cost. Now you're saying that you can improve the protein by 75%. How much does that commensurately decrease the cost of the chickpea protein?

Kathryn Cook: Yeah. So, so there are many different factors that are, that are impacting the cost of chickpea protein, protein [00:24:00] content being a major driver.

But when we start to add up the protein and some of the other benefits that we're bringing into into the chickpea system, we really do see a near term bat path to being cost competitive with yellow pea protein. When we think about, you know, fully scaled up production for that protein and with You know, further improvements that we see in chickpea, our ultimate vision is to really displace pea protein in the market by being even more cost effective, but maintaining the better flavors and the better functionality that come along with chickpea protein.

And we do think that that is, you know, not just a, a 10 year vision, but really a near term achievable goal in just the next few years here.

Paul Shapiro: You mentioned earlier, and now you're restating it again. So I want to just hone in on this for a second here, Catherine, that soy protein and pea protein have what you refer [00:25:00] to as a beanie flavor.

Why wouldn't a chickpea, which is also a bean and a legume, why wouldn't it also have a beanie flavor? Is it like, you're, you're stating it as an ario assumption that chickpeas have a better flavor than these other peas and, and beans. Yeah. So why is that?

Kathryn Cook: Yeah, that's, that's a very fair, very fair question.

So when we think about chickpea, it's a legume, it's certainly, I'm not saying it doesn't have any beaniness to it, right? It's it doesn't taste like corn. It doesn't taste like wheat or rice. It, it is still a legume. And so it does have a little bit of that, but when we think about, you know, all of the different beans that, or, or, or Peas that we have to choose from flavor just as naturally a little bit more mild in chickpea.

A lot of people describe it, you know, a little bit beanie, but a little bit nutty. You know, creamy, it, it comes with just a bit more of a mild, mild flavor profile. And that's just because of the genetics and the composition of the seed. Now, [00:26:00] interestingly, With the very unique library that we have that brings up 40 times more genetic diversity, it gives us access not just to agronomic traits like yield and yield stability and not just, you know, macro nutritional traits, but it actually gives us access to wide variations in flavor.

So we you know, You work a lot in startups to, to very narrow set of goals. And when you achieve those, sometimes you also get, you know, I dare to say this, but get a little lucky. Right. And I'll take it. Our first generation variety has come back. you know, flavor wasn't an aspect that we bred for specifically.

It was more something that we kind of screened for and said, we can't, can't lock to high protein chickpea that tastes more beany than a normal chickpea. And I think we've gotten You know, very fortunate that [00:27:00] all of the customer feedback and our sensory panels that we've done actually are indicating that particularly at the flower level where you, you know, you're not doing extraction, you can't modify the flavor at the flower level, we're actually seeing better tasting chickpea flour with our high protein variety than you would with just We're A normal chickpea flour that makes it really well suited.

You don't really see a lot of yellow pea pastas, soybean pastas, or yellow pea bread, but you do see, you do see chickpea in those applications. And I think again, that, that kind of speaks to the more nutty neutral flavor, albeit a little beanie, but more neutral flavor. Yeah.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah. It's an interesting point that a lot of those bean pastas are made from chickpea, like bonza.

And so. Those are our chickpeas. So that's a very interesting point, but it does raise the question of why not do the same with yellow peas. Like, if you can really increase the protein and decrease the [00:28:00] beaniness, do that with yellow pea or frankly with fava beans, which are increasingly popular, you know, like beyond meat.

Using fava bean now in it's beyond steak product and in other products that they're making. So you know, maybe there's a pathway for somebody, maybe new sizer to do that aside in the sizer GNS, but maybe there's other legumes you guys will be pursuing.

Kathryn Cook: Yeah. You know, and this is, this is something that probably comes up with our internal team every six months.

We, we sit down and we talk about, you know, are, are we, should we consider adding in other legumes or, or other crops more generally into our Breeding programs are, are kind of technology platform outside of the genetics and the, the phenotypic, the trait data, right? Our breeding tools, our simulation tools our databases can all be shifted over to use with other crops, but every time [00:29:00] we do this, there are a few things that, that come up, right?

When you're a small team and we, we have about. I don't know, 23, 24 people now, but still relatively small diluting focus and, and, and trying to breed for a number of different crops and commercialize them really dilutes the amount of, of transformation impacts that we can make on any single crop. And I think the other pieces, when we look at what we're trying to do as a company and the vision for the company, it's not.

It's not just to make a high protein chickpea and it's not just to bring down the cost of chickpea protein and open up that space. I think those are kind of table stakes for us. But the reality is we, we imagine a world where Our food products. The center of the plate is really promoting human health, delivering that that nutritional density, satisfying our cravings, [00:30:00] and also at the same time, creating value for growers and Thank you.

Really rejuvenating soil health. And so for us, that means that legumes have to become center of the plate. And when we evaluate chickpea, fava, peas, soy, cow bean, you know, mung bean, the list goes on, right? We come back to the uniqueness of chickpea, not just the. Not just the flavors, not just the function that it brings, but the fact that chickpea is woven itself into the fabric of human civilization for centuries. It is a very well known and accepted. Ingredient in, in households, not, you know, it, it entered in, in North America, I think maybe more as hummus or a salad ingredient, but when you really date back and you think globally, it is, and, and from our perspective, it has the ability to truly be a [00:31:00] staple food for a food system and fit into, you know, starches into proteins, thinking about the fiber and go well beyond where we believe the food market is for the other legumes.

Paul Shapiro: Okay. Well, that sounds like a pretty cool vision. I would love to have higher protein chickpeas at the center of my plate or in my hummus. That would be great. But where, how close are we to this vision, Catherine? I know that you all have already started some commercial production of your chickpeas in actual fields being grown by actual growers.

So tell me, where are we now in terms of production of new slicer chickpeas and how soon are we to see Did available to an everyday consumer who maybe is going to go buy the next plant based meat that instead of being made with yellow peas or soybeans will be made with your chickpeas here.

Kathryn Cook: Yeah, yeah, that's it.

Yeah. So the exciting piece of it is that we are now this year we're producing on over 1000 acres. Of [00:32:00] production. Those are split across five different states so that we have the ability to use each of those kind of regions, if you will, as a launching pad for next year, where we are anticipating over 6000 acres of production.

So relatively small in the grand scheme of things. But going through this, the scale up process is a really important piece. And In terms of being able to access it in about two months here, we will start delivering these, this this high protein chickpea as ingredients both to CPG brands and to other ingredient companies that are using this high protein chickpea as their input.

Into their products. And so as a consumer, well, you won't necessarily see new sizes brand. You will you will start to be able to access products that are made with our higher protein chickpeas, probably by the end of Q1 of

Paul Shapiro: 20, Q1, 2025. Yeah. Great. Exciting. So what will these products be? [00:33:00] Is it going to be a pasta?

Is it going to be a flower? Is it going to be a plant based meat? Like what is the actual first generation of the new slicer powered products?

Kathryn Cook: Yeah. So, so we're working, we're working with companies across a number of spaces notably in the breakfast category without going into too many specifics there.

But some companies that are working to bring bring chickpeas and kind of bring a more nutritious fiber and protein breakfast products whether that be waffles or oatmeal or, you know, thinking about alternative Proteins in our breakfast category. We're also working with us companies in the pasta space, in the noodle space as well.

And I think, you know, maybe I'll just pause there and say, I think one of the really interesting pieces is we need to. Not just think of this as a gluten free ingredient and it's hard for me sometimes personally. I have celiacs, so I need [00:34:00] everything that I eat to be gluten free, but some of the customers that we're working with, which I think is a really important piece for our ecosystem.

When we think about sustainability are blending chickpea with wheat and with other substrates. And that's so important because it allows us to maintain some of the, the gluten function that's required for some of these applications to get some of the benefits that come along with chickpea and create that demand for growers.

So, so we're going to see it in a lot of different applications. And we're working with protein processors as well. So that's going to start being, you know, put into some of the chickpea proteins. When you see that on the label, some of those are going to be formulated with our high protein chickpeas.

Paul Shapiro: Very exciting. You mentioned one application that is of particular interest to me. You said talk about chickpea oatmeal. So, you know, of course to the average person, chickpea oatmeal sounds repugnant. I'm sorry to say, but I presume it's not just oatmeal with whole chickpeas sitting in there, right?

So it's going to be something that looks [00:35:00] pretty good. More like regular oatmeal. And as you know, I am a big fan and a grower of mycoprotein, these fungi proteins that we do at the Better Me Co. And a lot of the times we have what we call like fines, like flakes of mycoprotein that don't get used because they're too small.

And I can't stand the thought of throwing anything out. Like there's, they're totally fine. And in fact, they are fine. They are fines and they are totally fine. And so I, I make them into what I call my coat meal and my coat meal was just like basically micro protein flakes that you use in the replacement of oats.

And so I, I love my coat meal and I actually think there's like a real application commercially for this too. So maybe we'll get a, a high, a new sizer chickpea plus better Meco micro protein flake that we can combine. So you'll have a, still a gluten free product that you'll be able to enjoy there.

Kathryn Cook: I, I love it.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah, I hope one day I'll give you a bowl of my oatmeal. You'll enjoy it. I promise you. Okay. You mentioned there's two dozen people or so working at the company now. [00:36:00] How much money have you raised?

Kathryn Cook: Yeah. So we, when we started the company, we were fortunate enough to launch through a 1 million grant from the Foundation for Food and Agricultural Research FAR.

And that got us going. And then since that point, we've raised an additional 11. 7 million in funding through a rounds led by lever VC. And then a subsequent rounds that was led by the leaps by Bayer team. So we've been really excited to have, you know, those investors and a handful of other really instrumental investors kind of join us in this journey.

Paul Shapiro: And I presume you will continue to fundraise. So when is the next time that, that new slicer is going to be opening around?

Kathryn Cook: Yeah. So, yes, that's, that's very true. I mean, our, we are you know, I think as a startup, you're never really not in funding fundraising fundraising mode in, in, in some ways. You know, and we're actually having [00:37:00] conversations with.

With new investors that are interested in, see, see the vision where we're going and, and kind of see the product. I think, you know, one piece of, of this journey for me personally and I think it's just an important, you know, maybe message that, that some of the audience might might resonate with when I decided I was going to do this.

Step away from big corporate culture and found a startup. I, I said to myself, I do not want to be fundraising for the rest of my life. Right? I mean, don't get me wrong for the investors out there. I really enjoy our conversations. But the reality is I want to found a stable business. And that means from day one, thinking about how to get to positive unit economics and then after positive unit economics, how to get to the point that we are, have net profitability and can start really showing that [00:38:00] we are an impact driven business, but that impact comes with profit.

And so from day one launch of our first ingredient, that ingredient. Is unit economic positive. And we do see a path in the next few years here to truly net profitability. And I think that that's one of the exciting things that this is not technology that requires, you know, another decade or so of inputs and getting to a certain scale before we start to, to kind of stabilize.

We're picking Technology that's transforming a crop that fits into existing manufacturing and production systems that allows us to tap into, into that. Yeah, that's, I think that's an important piece. It's gotta be around fundraising, but it's also at some point gotta be about generating revenue working with customers and, and eventually being able to support yourself.

Paul Shapiro: That's a truly radical idea. I wonder if they teach that in business school that people can make a [00:39:00] profit. wasn't sure if that was, if that was still in Vogue or not. But very cool. So Catherine, we talked about one idea maybe for another company then to do their own new Sicer type technology to fava beans or even to yellow peas or something, right?

So you can improve those, maybe somebody else would do that, but are there other ideas that you hope somebody else will pursue that might make a positive impact in the world as well?

Kathryn Cook: Yeah. So I think, I mean, one of the things that's kind of struck me as just an everyday consumer going through this process and getting into food and ag is that I fundamentally no longer believe we need to be making trade offs in our decision making when we go to the grocery store between flavor, nutrition, and affordability.

So I would, You know, if I, if I had the opportunity, even though I were not B2C company, we don't do brands. I would really encourage people on the food formulation on a brand side of things. I think there's a [00:40:00] huge opportunity right now to innovate. And instead of making healthy food, Taste healthy, right?

I mean, let's let it be delicious and indulgent and affordable. I think that with some of the novel ingredients that are out there, you know, new sizer, but others as well, we're at this inflection point that we can really start doing that for consumers. And so I really want to see more brands more people thinking about connecting, connecting back to.

New crops and to systems that actually support the grower when they're thinking about those food formulations. So for me, I'd say that's probably, you know, if I wasn't doing this an area that I would be working with, and I hope other people start to really think about.

Paul Shapiro: Okay, so if somebody takes you up on this idea to make a really awesome tasting, but still healthy and, and grower productive foods here, what resources should they be thinking about?

Catherine, has there [00:41:00] been anything that was useful for you in your own journey of entrepreneurialism that you think would be good for others to check out?

Kathryn Cook: Yeah, I'll one of the resources actually recently, just in the last, let's say six months that I've really enjoyed is the book think again by Adam grant.

And what I found really interesting about this book, I think it's, it's great, not just for when you're starting a company, but really at any stage of building a company is that it reminds us to rethink our assumptions and to continue to be curious and involve our thinking when you get. Down a path, let's say your plan a, or maybe it's your plan B of a company or, or any projects that you're working with, you're running into challenges.

And sometimes you, you need to, as hard as it is, you need to take a step back and completely rethink, reframe the situation. And I think, in the, in the book, think again, I think Adam does a really great job at [00:42:00] giving some tools and really giving examples of why that's so important and how to go about how to go about doing that.

So you can then really make a leap forward and, and accomplish and, and push through those challenges.

Paul Shapiro: Well, that's cool. I haven't read the book. I do appreciate this recommendation and we'll get to it. So we'll include the link to think again by Adam Grant in the show notes of this episode at business for good podcast.

com. But for now, Catherine, I want to say thank you. I can't wait to try the new Cicer high protein oatmeal. That sounds absolutely fantastic. And I will gladly trade you some mycoprotein that we can compare notes on how the mycote meal and the new sizer meal tastes. So I'll look forward to that very much.

I'm rooting for your success, and I am really thrilled by everything you're doing to bring the humble chickpea closer to the center of our plate.

Kathryn Cook: Thank you so much for having me, Paul. I really appreciate it. And yeah, look forward to talking again.