Life as a Scrappy Startup Exec: Doni Curkendall and The Better Meat Co.

Doni Curkendall: [00:00:00] I love nature and I feel this weight on my shoulders right now. Uh, when I see all of the horrible things that we're doing to our planet, deforestation, all of the just terrible things that are happening, uh, make, make me feel really concerned about the future. And honestly, that is my driving force.

Paul Shapiro: Welcome to The Business For Good podcast to show where we spotlight companies making money by making the world a better. I'm your host, Paul Shapiro, and if you share a passion for using commerce to solve many of the world's most pressing problems, then this is the show for you. Welcome friends to episode 71 of The Business for Good podcast, and it is indeed a special episode.

But before we get into it, I want to address a couple pieces of listener email. The first of which comes from Julie in San Diego, who writes, I really enjoyed the last. Thanks Julie, uh, with Mitchell Scott of the very Good Food Co. But their stock doesn't seem to be doing that well, and I invested in it. [00:01:00] I was so impressed by their story, but I'm a little bit nervous now that I've invested.

I'm also invested in Beyond Meat, and that hasn't gone well for me so far. Well, Julie, you'll be pleased to know that actually since you sent that email in via the Business for good podcast.com website, actually the very good food co doc has done a little bit better. Though, I'm sad to say your Beyond Meat stock hasn't been performing as well as you would probably like during that time period.

Still, my recommendation for what it's worth is that if you're investing any sizable amount into any individual stock, like these companies, just buy it and don't peak. I view it really as a long term investment and hope they do well over time and you'll save yourself a lot of stress by watching the daily volatility of these companies and the market in general.

So, uh, to the extent that I'm offering any advice, Julie, I would say I wouldn't worry so much and. You know, you're, you're, you're essentially gambling when you're betting on an individual company. So just hope that in the long run it works out. And then, uh, we also have an email from Roger in Sydney, Australia who writes in [00:02:00] saying, I like the show mate.

Actually, he didn't say mate, but I like to think of him as saying that. He said, though, Roger said, I like the show and I wish you'd do an episode on the. Industry green burials are all the rage now. Well, Roger, you just may get your wish, so stay tuned and I hope you can forgive me for my joke about, mate.

All right, now onto this episode. Some of you may recall way back in episode 51, that's 20 episodes ago when I interviewed my wife. Tony Okamoto about her business of being a social media influencer, To my pleasant surprise, who was actually among the most popular episodes of all time of this podcast, Well, my life partner is named Tony, but just to keep things confusing, my business partner is named Donny with ad and this episode is all about her.

As you'll soon hear, Dony Kirkendall was born and raised in Mexico. Came to the US as a seven year old and when she entered the workforce, it started as a receptionist at Goodwill. As the years went on, Donei was continually promoted, got her [00:03:00] mba, and eventually she became a vice president at Goodwill, overseeing more than 200 employees, but two and a half years ago.

When she just didn't see a path to becoming the ceo, as Fay would have it, she and I began exploring whether DOI could help run my own. Then one year old startup, the Better Meat Co. And for the past two years, I've often said that I may be the face of our company, but Dony. Is the backbone, serving as our executive vice president and overseeing all of our operations and logistics.

She's truly integral to the enterprise. And in this episode, Doni shares her secrets about what she looks for in job applicants. What the transition from nonprofit executive to scrappy startup has been like, how she thinks about compensation packages and startup plan and more. It's a compelling insider look at startup life.

So listen up, and I'm sure you'll be as impressed with Doni as I. Tony Kirkendall, welcome to the Business for Good podcast.

Doni Curkendall: Thank you Paul. I'm really

Paul Shapiro: excited to be here. It is an honor to be talking with you. Uh, for one, I talk to you nearly every [00:04:00] single day of my life, but this is our first time ever recording together, so I am excited, um, for that.

But I was thinking about this interview in advance and was think. Because as you know, I went back and looked recently at an email that I sent you a little over two years ago, uh, asking if you had any thoughts about moving, uh, over from your career at Goodwill where you had been for many years and were serving as a vice president to coming to the better Miko.

And I was thinking if somebody had asked you, like, let's say two and a half years ago or three years ago, what the likelihood of you doing what you're doing now would be, what would you have? I

Doni Curkendall: would've said, That's crazy. There's a 0% chance. I had no clue that I would be here where I am right now. I would have had no idea.

Absolutely .

Paul Shapiro: So a 0% chance That's right. And then a complete career shift into the alternative protein world.

Doni Curkendall: Absolutely. I was on a track, or I thought I was on a track, [00:05:00] uh, to do something in the nonprofit world, uh, specifically with Goodwill. Um, so yeah, I never actually thought that I would be doing anything.

Other than that.

Paul Shapiro: Wow. Alright, well let's go back to the beginning then. So how long were you at Goodwill for, and what were you doing? How did you come to, uh, get a job?

Doni Curkendall: Yeah, so I was with Goodwill for a total of about nine years. Um, I joined, uh, right out of college actually. I went to the University of Colorado at Boulder.

Um, and I couldn't find a job, to be quite honest with you. Um, the reason I moved to Sacramento was because I didn't have a job and I was broke and I had to pay my student loans. And so I moved in back with my. And thankfully, uh, a, a family member helped me find a job as a receptionist at Goodwill. So that's how I started

Paul Shapiro: there.

Why were your fam, why was your family living in Sacramento?

Doni Curkendall: Uh, my family had moved while I was in college, uh, for work. And so I was, I think a sophomore in college when they moved to Sacramento. Um, and I stayed there [00:06:00] because I loved Colorado. I loved, uh, Boulder and, uh, yeah. And, but then I decided I really needed to come back and find a job here.

And thankfully they were, uh, able to help me out by letting me live with them for a little bit while I, you know, found my footing. And so I was very lucky to have that. What did

Paul Shapiro: you study in.

Doni Curkendall: I studied political science and Spanish literature, .

Paul Shapiro: Ah, okay. Uh, well, given that Spanish as your first language, did you find that kind of like a cheating major?

That, or that you got to, that you got to study in

Doni Curkendall: your first language? ? Everybody says that. Um, the reason I took Spanish literature is because, yes, I grew up speaking Spanish. It's my mother language, but really it was, uh, reading in Spanish so that I, I didn't really have under my belt. And so I find that the Spanish.

Absolutely beautiful and in literature especially, I, uh, I just enjoy it a little bit more to be, to be

Paul Shapiro: honest with you. Mm. Where in Mexico did

Doni Curkendall: you grow? I was born in Mexico City, right at the heart of the city in a small little [00:07:00] town called NAU co. So try saying that. Paul .

Paul Shapiro: Um, yeah, we, for those of you listening, we just edited out the part where I said it and I said it extremely fluently.

Doni Curkendall: Great job. Um, yeah. So I was born in Mexico City. I moved to the US at the age of seven. Uh, we moved to Southern California. And, uh, have lived in three different states since then and many cities and ended up here in Sacramento. How do you learn. Uh, so, uh, my dad speaks English. He's American, and he actually would play Stevie Wonder songs for us in the car.

And I, this, I have a very special place in my heart for Stevie Wonder because, uh, my dad would play his songs, play his music, he would translate what Stevie Wonder was saying and his songs. Have us repeat it in song. Um, and then that way we understood what we were singing about . And so, uh, yeah. Actually a few years ago I got to see Stevie [00:08:00] Wondering Concert, and my brother and I just burst out into tears.

It just brought back so many wonderful memories of learning English.

Paul Shapiro: Wow. Thinking about all these people who are paying for like Rosetta Stone or other types of programs, and all they need to do is just get Stevie Wonder on exactly. Okay, so, uh, you move from Mexico to the US you learn English. By listening to Stevie Wonder, you go to college and then you move back in with your folks and become a receptionist.

So that's where in the story we are right now. Uh, did you feel like the receptionist was something that you wanted to do? You have a degree in political science, and yet you are the receptionist at Goodwill. So what were you thinking at that?

Doni Curkendall: Um, my parents always taught me that there's dignity in every single job.

Every job is important. So I knew that I had to start wherever I could. I didn't really think that that was below me or that I should, you know, because I have a college degree, I should be doing something different. I just thought I have a job. I'm very lucky for it, and I should just work hard to get to where I actually wanna be.

Um, [00:09:00] so when I started there as a receptionist, I really felt lucky. People were very nice there. I got a lot of really great training, a lot of experience, and I eventually moved up. So from receptionist, I became an executive assistant. The CEO hired me as his executive assistant. I worked for him for several years.

He then promoted me to chief of staff, which was great because I got a lot of really amazing experie. I got to do, uh, continuous improvement. I started handling a lot of accounting matters. Um, so I learned a ton during that time. I was so fortunate that Goodwill, uh, actually paid for me to go and get my MBA at Sac State.

And it was thanks to that program that I think I actually. Continued to be able to move up within Goodwill. Um, but yes, like I said, I was just very fortunate that Goodwill provided that for me and allowed me to move up and, and have that

Paul Shapiro: [00:10:00] educational experience. Right. And for people who are not familiar with Goodwill, you can note that we have a earlier episode that we will link to in the show notes about Goodwill because I, I.

This is just a thrift store. I, I didn't realize that it was an organization that did a lot more, and that the thrift store was just really the economic engine to drive the rest of the programs of the organization. But if you wanna learn more about Goodwill, you can go back and listen to that other episode that we did.

But, So what happened then? Donah, you were working, you went from receptionist to executive assistant to chief of staff, and eventually a vice president, and you were overseeing, I think, like over 200 employees at one point. Is that right? That's right. Mm. And so now you know you've had this, um, yeah, I, I used to say meteoric rise, however, I have since, uh, restrained myself from that expression because meteors do not rise, they fall.

Um, so I would say you had a very rapid ascent that is the antithesis of meteoric, um, because it was, uh, going up not down. Um, [00:11:00] but so now you're serving as the vp. At Goodwill, you're overseeing literally hundreds of people. And what were you thinking was your trajectory there? Like you were, what was your hope for, what was your aspiration?

Doni Curkendall: You know, Paul, I really loved the structure of Goodwill and I liked the way that it was being managed as a, as a for profit business, even though it's a non-profit. And so they really set their eyes. You know, effective, efficient operations. And that's what I really loved about it and kind of where I learned that, you know, making money matters because it goes back into our mission.

Um, basically yes, I thought that I was going to continue to rise. I did have my eyes set on a CEO role, um, especially in the Goodwill family, uh, that they. They don't have a lot of female CEOs and I know they're making a really big push to get that to happen. So, um, I was very excited about that. I definitely was on a on track to, to become a Goodwill CEO at [00:12:00] some

Paul Shapiro: point.

If you had not left to go to the better Miko, do you think that would've happened? I do. So do you look back on it and think that you have missed out on your opportunity or like, what is your thought when you made that? We're gonna get to that in a second, but do you ever look back on it and, and wonder whether you did the right

Doni Curkendall: thing?

I know that I did the right thing. I feel very confident. There are a lot of really incredible leaders, uh, within the goodwill. Uh, system. So what really mattered to me was putting people in those roles that were gonna be effective at, uh, continuing the mission. And I'm confident that they're gonna put people like that.

I know that I made the right decision for me and for what I wanted to do with my life. So I have absolutely zero regrets.

Paul Shapiro: Sure. Back in 2018 when you, um, get this email from me asking if you wanted to talk about coming to the Better Meet Co. What was going through your mind?

Doni Curkendall: I was [00:13:00] very excited about learning something different, you know, learning about a company that was doing something completely different.

I didn't have a any expectations, to be honest. I just thought, Hey, this is really interesting. I'd love to talk to this person and just find out what they're doing. Um, did you know what the company even did? Very little. Very little. I know I knew you were an ingredients company and that it was somehow related to plant protein

Paul Shapiro: Well, yeah, back at that point we were probably also doing very little. So , there's not a lot to know at that point. There was just very little going on. Um, but so, you know, when we started talking and, and you agreed that you were interested in, in this role. As a head of operations and logistics at the Better Meat Co.

Um, you know, this would be a pretty major shift for you to go from a non-profit organization going to a for-profit startup. So how did you manage that when you made that shift over, or because you were running these stores? Was it not so much of a, of a challenging shift?

Doni Curkendall: It was definitely [00:14:00] a challenging shift.

I knew nothing about the food business and, but you know, I think that my confidence level was. Strong, and I think that when I made the switch, I just put everything into it and I didn't hesitate. I didn't question myself. When I made that decision, I said, You know, I gave my. It a hundred percent really?

And so I, yes, it was very tough to learn everything there is to know, and I still don't know everything. But, um, that's what I love about it, is that it's a continuous, uh, learning experience. But, you know, Paul, I really just felt like I put everything into it and I will continue to do so. And, and I'm really glad that I made the switch.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah. For a piece of better Miko history when you started or when you were hired? We were working out of this co-working space and we did wanna move into a larger facility of our own at some point in the near future. Back then. But right before you started, um, there was a. Uh, [00:15:00] a big dispute between the tenants, uh, and the, uh, the owner of this building and the co-working space that we were in that led to all of the tenants, including the better miko, getting evicted.

And so every tenant in this co-working space, including us, uh, had all of a sudden no office. And so here you are leaving your role as vice president of this major charity and coming to an organization, uh, to a company. Not only was tiny and only had a few people working there, but now had no office and was operating out of a living room and a house that I was renting at the time.

So what was your thinking when you left your office and your life where, you know, they provided you with a corporate car and other types of perks and you came into something where you were literally sitting at a, at a living room table trying to strategize how to build this nascent.

Doni Curkendall: It was different , but um, like I said, I just think it was more exciting than anything else I felt [00:16:00] confident in.

You know, when I met you and the rest of the team, um, I just felt comfortable and confident that this was gonna work out and so, You know, I, I know a little bit about startups. I know that sometimes, you know, they don't necessarily have all the resources that a big company like Goodwill does, but we'll make it work, and that's part of the reason why I wanted to join because I felt like I could be a part in helping to develop the company and get.

To where we needed to be. So it was really exciting because I felt like, oh, I, I, I really am gonna have a big impact on this company.

Paul Shapiro: Mm-hmm. . Well, uh, there has been a lot of development, uh, since those days, obviously. So when you look back, uh, at, when you started just over two years ago to today, like when you talk about the transformation with people, what are the things that you think are, you would know the.

Doni Curkendall: I just, uh, Wow. Yeah, it's a lot to think about. I can't believe how fast time flies by, but, uh, one of the things that I think about a lot is how [00:17:00] great it is to build a team of people who are mission driven, who are. Together helping to make the world a better place. And, and that's really what keeps us going, what has allowed us to grow so fast.

Um, one of the things that I would say I learned in the MBA program, uh, was to identify people's strengths and bring them together as a team. And I think we've been able to do that here at the Better Meco. We've hired amazing, incredible, talented, skilled people who all have. You know, different expertise and we've been able to bring them together for a common cause.

Uh, and I think that's probably, but the proudest I aspect

Paul Shapiro: of our company. Yeah. Yeah. I often tell people I think that like probably the. Biggest skill that I might possess is solely surrounding myself with people who are smarter than I am. And you know, that might be just like the key, I think, honestly, is just getting people who know a lot more than I do and [00:18:00] working with them to achieve the goals that we all have, in this case, to reduce humanities footprint on the planet.

Absolutely.

Doni Curkendall: I totally agree.

Paul Shapiro: So you talk about bringing these people on, You think it might be like the greatest accomplishment is building this world class team at the better miko that's really trying to ascend to new heights and bring Myprotein fermentation to the world. Um, and you are in charge of the hiring process.

So if there are other people who, maybe they work at startups or maybe a thing about starting a startup and they're out there thinking, Well, you know, how do you assemble a word class team? Like what are the tools that you use when you. Have an open position at the better Miko, Like what's the process that you're using for hiring?

Are you using LinkedIn? Are you using other things? Like what do you do? Yeah,

Doni Curkendall: definitely. LinkedIn is one of my favorite. Um, Things to use when I hire my, one of my favorite resources because you can reach out to people directly and kind of gauge their interest, gauge where they are. Um, but the most important thing I do is I get on an introductory phone call.

And right now [00:19:00] obviously that's, uh, through Zoom nowadays really it's Zoom or Google Meet. Um, It's really important for me to have a conversation with them to just get to know them. I don't like to just go over their resume right away. I have their resume. I can read at any time. They can recite it to me.

But what's important to me is to have a conversation, get to know them as a person, understand why they would be interested in a company like ours. Like you said, we're still pretty small, um, and we don't have all of the resources that bigger companies have. So what motivates people to apply to our company?

Really an important factor when I hire

Paul Shapiro: people. So what is it that you're looking for? If, if I'm the interviewee and you're trying to ascertain what motivates me, like what are the questions that you're gonna ask me and what are the answers that I would give that would actually be appealing to you?

Doni Curkendall: One of the most important things that I ask is, you know, where do you see yourself as far as making an impact in the world?

What, what do you, what's your personal mission? You know, what are some of the things that interest you? [00:20:00] And a lot of the answers that I love getting and that I've, that we've gotten and from people that we've hired is, you know, I wanna make an impact. I want to do something that helps others. I want to do something that, Make this planet a better place than it was when I first got here.

Um, one. Quote that resonated with me. Um, and this wasn't from an interviewee, but it was from, uh, actually, uh, Maurice Hillman, who was a vaccinator, he created eight of the 14 vaccines that we get as children. And he said something like, You know, I want to do something that justifies my existence and that's exactly how I feel.

And not that I expect everybody to feel that way, but I do feel that people who have personal goals of helping to make this planet a better place, um, fit very well with our company culture and with the mission that we're trying to achieve. So I really look for people that are trying to do something for [00:21:00] this world, for other people.

Um, It, it just, I think it's really important.

Paul Shapiro: Mm-hmm. , So if you're looking at somebody, then how important would you say is their academic background versus their work experience versus having that type of a personal mission to do good in the world? You know, like there's, there's two different. Types of people who might apply.

One is gonna be somebody who, let's say, is not that dissimilar to you, who might have little experience in that particular field, but has like a really strong drive and motivation to succeed versus somebody who has extensive experience or maybe has advanced degrees in that field or so on. Like, which is more important to you?

Would you rather cultivate somebody or bring on somebody who's already has a proven track record?

You

Doni Curkendall: know, I would, I would say it's 50 50. Honestly, it, it all depends on the person. We have people who have. 20, 30 years of experience in their fields and still have that personal mission to do something greater.

Um, and then we have people straight out of college, or we have, you know, people that just came out [00:22:00] of an, in another internship doing something really awesome. So it really just depends on the person. Um, that's why I like to just have conversations with them. I don't like the structured interview, question, answer, question answered, type, uh, format.

When I interview people, I like to ask them about themselves, what they're interested in, how they like to learn, how they communicate. Um, so it, it's a little bit of both. Mm-hmm. .

Paul Shapiro: And so, uh, you obviously mentioned done that you're going onto LinkedIn to search for people, to invite them to apply, but lots of people apply themselves also.

So what are you looking for when you're looking at the incoming resumes when people were seeking to get a job with. I would

Doni Curkendall: say that definitely some of the applications that have stood out for me include a cover letter they include, um, Work, uh, research that they've done on our company, uh, or examples of things they've done in the past that might be related or relevant to what we do.

Uh, so definitely going the extra mile, having something extra to offer. Following [00:23:00] up, you know, via email or even on LinkedIn or even if they applied on Indeed, Indeed has some great resources where you can actually email, uh, the company directly. So definitely going the extra mile, doing a little bit extra than just submitting your resume.

Yeah.

Paul Shapiro: And you know, for job seekers out there, I'll say, you know, at least for us, and I'm sure for other companies in our field for every opening, there's lots of applications. So you have to do something that makes yourself stand out. Um, and you know, we get people who write in who. Get the name wrong. They get the name.

They, you know, have a, some, you know, template that they're sending out and they do the wrong company name, or maybe they're the wrong person's name. Uh, then we have other people who have, you know, really gone to great lengths. Like, like for example, uh, one of our team members who we hired a couple years ago, not only she, not only, um, She not only submitted a resume through Indeed, I believe, but then she also followed up by emailing us through our web form just to let us know how interested that she was in particular.

And so we hired [00:24:00] her and it was a fantastic thing and she's still doing a great job here two years later. Absolutely. Yes. Yeah. So, okay then. In terms of the hiring process, when you are, uh, in that place where you're ready to make an offer to somebody, My experience, and I think yours is that in startup land there's just, you know, there's some people who understand the compensation structure and there's other people who are accustomed to just working for bigger companies, where the incentives and compensation packages are very different.

So what do you do to help people underst. When there is a blended compensation offer where they're gonna get both cash and equity, uh, how do you try to help them understand the competing values of those kinds of. Yeah,

Doni Curkendall: I definitely have found that a lot of people don't really understand equity, and I was one of them.

I definitely, when I first started and, and you were explaining that compensation package to me, I definitely had to ask people and kind of find [00:25:00] out what that meant. Um, so the way I describe it is more in terms of, you know, It's all about how much you believe in the company and the effort you're gonna put into it, to be quite honest, because it is such a huge, important part of your compensation.

Equity is so important because you are personally. Uh, affected by the success of the company. And so, um, I definitely try to gauge, you know, how much people value equity versus cash salary. Uh, but the way I try to explain it is, you know, this is a long term thing. You know, you definitely want the company to become more valuable because your personal, uh, finances are gonna be very.

Also become more valuable as the company succeeds. And so I try to kind of explain that part of it. Um, but it is, it is a tough, it is a tough discussion that I have to have.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah, I mean, in my [00:26:00] own experience, I have found that just a lot of people don't really comprehend the value of the equity, or, or maybe they do and they just don't think that it's gonna be worth anything.

If the company fails, obviously that equity is worth nothing. Um, and most startups fail, so you know, you're taking a gamble, needless to say. But if you think the company is promising and has a reasonable chance of success, I mean, you should always want more equity. Um, always. And I, I do find that you, you get some people who are trying to negotiate in a conventional way, like trying to get a couple thousand dollars here or there added to their, um, added to their salary when, you know, you know, shares in the company would be far more valuable to them over the long term.

Uh, and when you compare the value of those two, presuming you believe the company will do.

Doni Curkendall: Yeah. And I do find, um, that I, I like to have the discussion about, you know, how likely is it that this company is gonna succeed? Um, it is important if we have people who are trying to join the company that don't really believe in the success of the company, then maybe there's a bigger issue at hand.

[00:27:00] But, um, so I'm very open and transparent about where the company is, you know, what stage we're in, what we're doing. Sales are, you know, things like that so that people really understand how valuable our company is. Um, and that way they kind of have a better understanding.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah. Um, I, I think that people generally, like, in addition to the question about when you're negotiating a compensation package, what, what you ought to do with a startup, but also I think, you know, people generally are gonna be more motivated to work harder, like when they have real.

Equity. Um, which is to say if, if they're logical and if they comprehend what the equity is worth. Because, you know, normally if you do a good job at a company, you might, you know, at the end of the year get like a 3% raise or something to your salary. That's like in a conventional company. But if you do a good job search that you actually increase the valuation of your company where you make some important discovery or make some, you know, great advancement.[00:28:00]

Um, That could have a much, much bigger impact to your personal net worth, uh, when you're dealing with that. And so I think it's better for people to have equity in the company just because I think it helps them to, um, have a greater incentive alignment for, uh, for that type of hard work. Absolutely.

Absolutely. So let me ask you, Dony, like you have an mba, um, and. You, Uh, I, my, I've heard you say in the past that, you know, we don't necessarily need to have people who have advanced degrees here, but it's not un, it's not unwelcome, But what do you think, are you glad that you got your mba? I mean, obviously you didn't pay for it, but you were, it spent a lot of your time doing it.

Um, so how useful is it for you in your work here now with the better?

Doni Curkendall: I am so grateful that I received the opportunity to get an MBA and absolutely, I use it all the time. I really do. I think that one of the greatest things that taught me was how to bring people together and how to identify skills and um, really have a [00:29:00] little bit of knowledge in every aspect of a business.

And so, although it was, you know, it's not a full business that you're running while you're in the MBA program, you do learn a little bit. Negotiation, contracts, accounting, you know, finance, all that kind of stuff. So I definitely use it. I definitely, I'm very, very glad that I had that background before coming to this startup.

Um, and I encourage other people, if you have the opportunity, I only, you know, education only opens up your

Paul Shapiro: doors. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Yeah. I, I agree. It does open them up. Although, you know, I, I have thought, you know, we have, you know, there. Uh, some people I've worked with in my life who don't have a college degree, who are extremely effective.

There's other people who I've worked with who have PhDs who are also extremely effective. But the inverse is also true. I mean, you know, we've worked with people who have PhDs who are not extremely effective. Um, and we've worked with people who have college degrees and have nothing further who are also very effective.

Um, You know, in my view, it doesn't necessarily [00:30:00] seem imperative, but it definitely doesn't hurt either. Like it, you know, we never discounted somebody saying, Oh, this person has an advanced degree. You know, we're not gonna look at them. That's never happened. But I do think, you know, It hasn't always proven to be like causally correlated with more effectiveness.

Doni Curkendall: I agree. Again, it's all about the person's willingness to learn and to be hands on. Uh, that's really important with a startup. You have to be ready to be hands on, be ready to learn, be ready to just be involved in every single aspect of the company. So as long as you're willing to put those hours in, as long as you're willing to learn that, and uh, I think that you'll be.

Paul Shapiro: So speaking of being involved in every aspect of the company, Donny, I've often said that I may be the face of this company, but you are the backbone of it. And so you are involved in every part of the company, uh, from major to minor. So just for people who are wondering, like, you know, what does an executive VP at a startup that has 16 employees [00:31:00] do?

Like what is it that you're doing here at the Better?

Doni Curkendall: Miko? , every day is different, which is what I love about it. I don't really. Set schedule, but I am doing things such as strategizing, uh, creating forecast, financial forecasts, uh, to bookkeeping. Sometimes I'm also, uh, managing the plant operations team, so ensuring that there's a plan for production that we have, you know, all of our preventative maintenance set up.

Uh, I'm handling logistics. Great in making sure we're getting good prices, that we're doing everything, um, in a safe manner. So I also oversee health and safety. Um, I talk to vendors, I do purchasing, so it's a little bit of everything. Um, but you know what's great about it is that I have knowledge of all of the different things that are happening in different departments, which helps.

When I'm making decisions, and it helps me when I talk to you and communicating, you know, that information, um, that's happening in the plant so we can [00:32:00] make better decisions.

Paul Shapiro: Mm-hmm. , uh, a lot of the people who are in senior level roles like you are at the alternative protein startups have come from like, animal welfare organizations, environmental organizations.

It's not necessarily your background. Um, but when you talk with your own social set, uh, like your own social circle, Of people who largely are not in this space, unlike, you know, a lot of the people from animal welfare who, who are in this space, do they, uh, understand what you're doing? Do they get it? What do they think about?

Doni Curkendall: When I first joined and tried to explain what we do, I definitely got side eyed a little bit, Got a couple of rolling eyes. Um, but you know what hooked me to this company, Paul, was when you were talking to me about meat consumption, and in your book you explain a lot of that, but what resonated with me was the fact that animal.

Meat consumption is going up in the world. And I, coming from a background where we eat a lot of [00:33:00] meat, um, I was already concerned about that. I was already concerned that there are many people. I'm Hispanic, obviously, um, many people in my culture, in my home country and in the us, um, You have problems, diabetes, high cholesterol.

There's a lot of things that are affecting, uh, the people that I know and that surround me. And so when I talked to you and when I got to know the company, the idea of blending meat with protein and fiber and things that are better for you without necessarily, uh, asking people to turn vegetarian or vegan made so much sense to me.

It was so practical. It's such a, you know, I can't imagine anybody turning. You know, a burger that's half, uh, animal meat and half, uh, more protein and plant protein with fiber and other great things that are good for you. So, um, it just makes sense to me who wouldn't want a better product, um, understanding that many people [00:34:00] still just want that meat experience.

So the fact that, you know, I can explain that to my friends and my family, um, has helped me because now they, they get it. They understand and they think it makes sense too. Just like I was able to kind of buy into that, you know, because it made sense to me.

Paul Shapiro: So how much of your motivation is, let's say, uh, in order to improve, let's say, public health versus the other common motivations that you hear from people in this space about wanting to prevent climate change or to save animals?

Like, what is it for you that is the driving factor that makes you work so hard? Uh, because I know personally how hard you work, and I know that this, you know, it's, it's oftentimes, uh, not glamorous work that we're doing here. Um, and so for. You're willing to do this? Why? What is it that you're trying to do?

I know you said earlier you wanna make the world a better place, but what does that mean to you? I,

Doni Curkendall: I care a lot about people. I want people to have healthier lives, but, To be completely honest with you, what [00:35:00] drives me is wanting to save this planet from where it's going. I am a huge, uh, I'm a, I'm a big hiker, backpacker.

I love nature. I love going out into clean air and seeing the green all around me and, and water, fresh water, and I, I just, I love nature and I feel this weight on my shoulders right now. Uh, when I see all of the horrible things that we're doing to our planet, deforestation, all of the just terrible things that are happening, uh, make, make me feel really concerned about the future.

And honestly, that is my driving. Force is I wanna save this planet. We are so lucky to be here. We're so lucky of all the things that it provides us. And, um, it, it makes me sad that we're not treating it the way that we should be. It's our only home. And so that's, that's really what drives

Paul Shapiro: me. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I, I think there's a lot of people in the space who are very climate motivated or just biodiversity, [00:36:00] um, motivated who.

Trying to stop the greatest assault that we're waging against the planet, which is that we're raising billions and billions and billions of animals for food who just take up a lot of land, a lot of water, a lot of greenhouse gas emissions. Not to mention the suffering of those animals themselves endure, which as you know, is a real motivating factor for me as well.

But, um, I. You know, working at startups is tough, you know, a lot of the times, um, you know, they have just, you know, they have like a high turnover rate. Uh, thankfully, not necessarily us at Beco, but, um, you know, startups tend to, because it's just really tough. And I think it, you know, selecting people who have that higher motivation, not just a motivation to make money, but a motivation to actually do good in the world leads to, um, I, I think a greater, um, like durability for your employees as.

Doni Curkendall: Yeah, I, I agree with you completely. I just think it's so important to have that bigger mission. Of course, we wanna make money and we [00:37:00] should do whatever it takes to, you know, continue to have that happen. But really it's because we wanna fulfill our, our mission and. I am very glad to do it every day,

Paul Shapiro: right?

I mean, we've had even opportunities to go down roads to make some money that probably wouldn't have advanced our mission. So, for example, with our, uh, fermented ingredient, which we call riza, like we know it can actually be used as a flour, like a gluten-free flour. You can know it and turn it into a a bread product.

And we've made it, We've eaten as products and they're quite good. Um, but, you know, it's not really our mission to replace wheat in the world. , you know, our mission is to help replace wheat, not wheat. Uh, so, um, you know, those are examples of places where yeah, like it actually could be something that you could do that would, uh, maybe be another pathway to market and into commercialization, but it really wouldn't actually accomplish much from our, from our personal mission that we're waging here.

Doni Curkendall: You know, Paul, I feel like we're in a rush and, and that's how we operate here at The Better Meat Co. Is we. Losing time [00:38:00] and we work very fast to, to make an actual change. And while many companies have done incredible things, we have this personal mission, I think to act as fast as possible to save our planet.

And I'm glad to do it and I'm lucky. I feel very honored to work with everybody here at this company who feels the same way. Yeah.

Paul Shapiro: So let me then ask you, Dony, you have now, uh, devoted the last two plus years of your life to trying to save the planet through, uh, trying to, um, reduce the number of animals who are raising for food.

What, in terms of resources that you think have been useful for you? That you would recommend to other potential entrepreneurs, other potential founders or co-founders, or people who are looking to join socially conscious companies, other resources that have been useful for you, whether they book books or anything else that have, uh, been impactful that you would recommend for others.

Doni Curkendall: I have been listening to a lot of podcasts ever since I started at the Better Co

Paul Shapiro: obviously business. Were good at the top of [00:39:00] the list, obviously .

Doni Curkendall: Uh, one of the podcasts that I find fascinating and really motivates me to learn more is, um, how I built this. I've learned so much about regular people like me who had nothing to do with what they do now, and they just went out and started a company and just worked really hard at it.

And I just find that fascinating. Some of these companies have been extremely successful and sometimes they end up failing, but they learn so much in the process and I. Hearing about those failures because, you know, sometimes I could relate to them. Sometimes I, I do the same thing and, you know, I, I love hearing that, you know, nobody's perfect and you don't have to have a background in what you wanna do.

You don't necessarily have to have, like you mentioned earlier, uh, the educational background to go into science or business or whatever it is you wanna go into. So, uh, podcasts like that. I love, you know about this, about me, I love Radiolab because I get to learn. Totally [00:40:00] amazing things that are happening in the world and incredible people who are making a change.

And so I love those types of stories. Cool.

Paul Shapiro: So how I built this in Radiolab, we will link to both of those in the show notes. Um, but yeah, uh, you know, we have, uh, pretty similar podcast, uh, taste I think in, in some ways. Um, because I, I feel like I recommend episodes to you on a regular basis thinking that you'll like them or things that I've listened to.

Yes. Um, Anyway, uh, at least you humor me by telling me that you are also interested in this . Um, cool. So obviously you are devoted to better Meet co. You have, uh, we have a long way to go here to make this company a success and to have the impact in the world that we want, But I know that you think a lot about what other companies are needed in the world.

And what you hope other people will do, uh, because we're busy doing this, but what other startups do you hope will either get founded or so what other ideas or problems you hope will get solved that you would encourage a listener [00:41:00] to take up on his or her own to do it?

Doni Curkendall: Well, there are many problems, but thankfully there are currently a lot of companies that are, are trying to do something about it, like, you know, recycling and, but something that's really, really important to me that I really care about is access to birth control for women across the world.

And although I know there are a lot of organizations that are already working on that, I do think that, um, I would love to see a company. Uh, do something where we can actually have maybe more advanced science, uh, than we currently have to provide either free or extremely low cost birth control access to.

Every woman in the world. Um, I, I think that that would be just so empowering for women and it would, uh, at least move us in the right direction towards treating our planet a little bit better.

Paul Shapiro: Mm-hmm. , Well, I, I certainly agree with you, but I will [00:42:00] only, uh, offer my own one amendment, which is that men need birth control too.

and there are, there are. Yes. There we go. There are, Shockingly few options for men. It's basically condoms or vasectomy. And so we did an episode, uh, about, uh, male birth control before, and it's like this vexing problem that, um, you know, trying to find something that isn't permanent. You know, vasectomy is, it can be reversible, but you know, it's not.

Guaranteed to be reversible. Um, but uh, there, there really are limited options out there. And so, um, you know, I agree that one of the most pressing things that we need to do for so many reasons, whether it's women's empowerment, whether it's environmental reasons or more, is to empower people who want to have fewer kids, to have fewer kids.

Um, and so having new technologies that can make birth control easier. Cheaper, more effective. Um, hopefully somebody will take up. Mantle [00:43:00] and uh, maybe they'll be, uh, a guest on business for good in the future.

Doni Curkendall: I hope so. I really look

Paul Shapiro: forward to that . Very nice. Well, it's a pleasure to work with you, Doni. It has been quite a ride for the last two years.

Um, you have heard me say often that when you start your own company that you will sleep like a baby because you will wake up every two hours and cry . And, uh, I know that, um, that you often feel the same way, you know, but. Every single week I think about how many good things and how many bad things happen.

And surprisingly, the goods are quite good and the bads are quite bad. So, um, you know, you end up having, I think, to develop a type of mentality of like an Obama mentality where you said, you know, cool when you're up, cool when you're down. And so I know that you have that as well. And that's one of the things I really appreciate about being in business with you, is that whatever the problems are, we just look at them as.

You know, hurdles to be overcome as opposed to like a brick wall to run into. They're, they're more like speed bumps [00:44:00] rather than walls. And so I look forward to, uh, hurtling over many of those speed bumps together for many years to

Doni Curkendall: come. Likewise, Paul, it's honestly so great working with you and the rest of the team, and I'm just so appreciative of the.

For the opportunity.

Paul Shapiro: Thanks for listening. We hope you found use in this episode. If so, don't keep it to yourself. Please leave us a five star rating on iTunes or wherever you get your podcast. And as always, we hope you will be in the business of doing good.