Ep. 168 - Trash into Treasure: ChainCraft Is Converting Food Waste into Sustainable Chemicals
SHOW NOTES
What if we could turn the mountains of food waste we generate every day into high-value chemicals that replace fossil fuels and palm oil—two of the most environmentally destructive inputs in our economy? That’s exactly what this episode’s guest is doing.
Marc den Hartog is the CEO of ChainCraft, a Dutch biotechnology company using fermentation to convert agricultural waste into medium-chain fatty acids—essential building blocks for everything from fats for foods to lubricants to bioplastics and fragrances. Founded as a spin-off from Wageningen University, ChainCraft is pioneering open-culture fermentation process that offers a scalable, circular alternative to petroleum-based chemicals. And they’re not just operating at the lab bench—in addition to having raised 40 million euros in investment so far, the company already has a pilot facility in Amsterdam producing 2,000 tons of fatty acids per year, with plans for a full-scale industrial plant underway.
Marc joined ChainCraft after a distinguished career in the chemical industry, including senior roles at Corbion and other global players. Now, he’s applying that experience to scale a cleantech company aiming to rewire one of the dirtiest parts of our supply chains—chemical production—into a model of sustainability.
In this conversation, Marc and I talk about how ChainCraft’s technology works, why food waste is a goldmine of untapped value and what it will take for his team to go from demo plant to commercial scale.
If you care about the future of sustainable industry, the circular economy, or just finding smarter ways to deal with the waste we already produce, you’re going to love this episode.
DISCUSSED IN THIS EPISODE
Algae fermentation pioneer Solazyme, whose acquisition post-IPO by Corbion was led by Marc. Our previous episode with Polybion, which is using fermentation to convert fruit waste into alt-leather.
Marc recommends reading Bird Sense.
Marc recommends listening to the podcast AND is the Future.
Chaincraft’s patent-pending technology.
MORE ABOUT Marc den Hartog
Marc joined ChainCraft in October 2024 as CEO, from Renewi, a leading waste to product recycling company where he was Managing Director, Commercial Waste Netherlands, and member of the Executive Committee.
He previously worked for 8 years for Corbion N.V., a leading industrial Biotechnology company listed on the Euronext Stock Exchange, where he held a number of senior management positions including Executive Vice President, BU Innovation Platforms and Chief Operating Officer. He was also a board member of TOTAL Corbion PLA, a joint venture between TOTAL S.A. and Corbion N.V. producing and selling sustainable biobased polymers. Marc started his career at Unilever in plant-based oils and fats, from where he joined IOI Group, an integrated palm oil business. During his period there, he was a board member at RSPO, actively promoting the transition to a sustainable value chain for palm oil. Marc holds a Master’s degree in Chemistry from the University of Leiden.
TRANSCRIPT
Paul Shapiro: Hello, friend. Welcome to episode 168 of The Business for Good Podcast. As I am recording this in June, 2025, I just received some very good news that's really made my day and might make you smile too. I recently came across a dirty and hungry, but very friendly stray pit bull who was dragging a cable, not even a leash behind him in the shoulder of the freeway.
Well, after collecting him and bringing him home to bathe and feed him and letting him play with my dog, Eddie. I took him to our local animal shelter where I hoped that maybe he would get a better shot at a new chapter in life. Well, I just got some photos from the animal shelter of this 1-year-old pup with his new adoptive family, and man does he look happy.
You can see them on my personal Facebook page, but in short, I. While my wife Tony, named him Moses, during the couple hours he stayed with us, he is now Sir Bud Word, AKA buddy and Buddy seems to really be enjoying his new life. While it was a very short and minor event in my life, hopefully it will prove to be a turning point for this very affable young guy who voraciously consumed everything I gave him without wasting a morsel.
Now speaking of voraciously consuming food without wasting it. This episode is about using food waste to make valuable commodities. You like that transition? Pretty good. Okay. Well, what if we could turn the mountains of food waste that we generate every day into high value chemicals that replace fossil fuels in palm oil?
Two of the most environmentally destructive inputs in our economy. I. That's exactly what this episode's guest is doing. Mark Den Hartog is the CEO of chain craft, a Dutch biotech company using fermentation to convert agricultural waste into medium chain fatty acids. The essential building blocks for everything from fats and foods to.
Lubricants to Bioplastics and Fragrances founded as a spinoff from Vagan Negan University. Yes. I like to say that to prove that I can pronounce it. Vagan and University Chain Craft is pioneering open culture fermentation processes that offer a scalable, circular alternative to petroleum based chemicals, and they are not just operating at the lab bench in addition to having raised.
40 million Euros in investments so far. The company already has a pilot facility in Amsterdam, producing 2000 tons of fatty acids per year with plans for a full scale industrial plant underway. Mark joined Chain Craft after a distinguished career in the chemical industry, including senior roles at Corion and other global players.
Now he's applying that expertise. To scale a Cleantech company aiming to rewire one of the dirtiest parts of our supply chains chemical production into a model of sustainability. In this conversation, mark and I talk about how chain crafts technology works, why food waste is a gold mine of untapped value, and what it'll take for his team to go from demo plant to commercial scale.
If you care about the future of sustainable industry, the circular economy, or just finding smarter ways to deal with the waste problem that we already produce, you are going to love this conversation.
Mark, welcome to the Business for Good podcast.
Marc den Hartog: Paul, great to be here. Thank you.
Paul Shapiro: I love the shirt that you're wearing. People are only listening on audio. So tell me, what does your shirt say?
Marc den Hartog: Well, the sweater says, because there is no Planet B Paul. And all right.
Paul Shapiro: Yes, I, I'm, I'm constantly amazed at how many people I know who think that we may have some meaningful settlements on the moon or on Mars, and I always think, you know, you know, this isn't like going from the old world to the new world.
Like when, when the old Worlders came to the new world. There was still air they could breathe. There were still trees and plants and animals. Right. You know, like, and I always think like, we're not gonna be farming the moon, we're not gonna be farming Mars. At least not in our lifetimes. And so we have a real serious urgent crisis going on here.
But I don't know. Do, do you think that someday we may be farming other celestial bodies or do you think that this is it?
Marc den Hartog: Well, I think the only person in the world that has done that so far was Matt Damon in a movie called The Margin. Yes. But no, not on short term. And I think also ultimately our planet doesn't really care the mess we make out of it, but it's in our twin interest and especially all the other living creatures and, and generations to come.
So,
Paul Shapiro: yeah. Right. Yeah. I, I, I have a friend whose name is Matt Ball, who regularly talks about how it doesn't matter what the, happens to the planet, so to speak, but rather all of the sentient beings on the planet, human and non-human, who actually matter. Certainly the planet has endured massive asteroids and all types of changes in its atmosphere in the past.
But you know, we're. Ushering in a mass extinction event as we speak, and it certainly is a terrible thing to be doing. So hopefully the work that we're gonna be talking about today will give us a little bit of a better chance on planet A here than since there is no Planet B as your shirt says.
So let's talk about that. I'm eager to hear about. How this all got started, like what happened with Chain Craft? Like you were working at a huge company in the chemical fermentation space. A huge ingredients provider around the globe. And then you thought. You know, let me go work at a small startup instead.
So big difference. So what happened for you that, that led to this?
Marc den Hartog: Yeah. Big big difference to, to be seen. I think overall. Paul, you said rightfully so. I've, I've been working most of my career with large corporate enterprises, starting off with Unilever and the later on with Corion, indeed, a leader in industrial biotech.
Been with them for about eight years on their executive committee. And there you see, ultimately, you know what you can do to make a big impact at scale globally. But of course, ultimately it also requires new ventures that explore more disruptive ideas. I. And that's within the walls of a corporate enterprise, always slightly more difficult than when you do that in a, in a small startup or scale up.
And yeah, I believe it or not I've been exposed to chain craft already a couple of years ago from my role at Corion. And there got to engage with the founder who was back then, the CEO. We talked about his his venture and his scaling. And ultimately now five years down the road.
Yeah, the company is at a point where actually it will be scaled to industrial scale, which is also where for me is the right time to move in. And yeah, I'm just over 50 and this is my first entrepreneurial job. So you know, the, the, the learning journey doesn't end Paul.
Paul Shapiro: No, that's really cool.
In fact, if, if you read the book super Founders, I know that you're not the founder of Chain Craft, but if you read the book, super Founders they claim that there's really no correlation on age for a successful founder or a successful CEO, that there are plenty of people who start companies or join companies as CEO.
Later right, like in your fifties or even sixties, that can do very well. And there's no reason why they should do worse than somebody who's in their twenties or thirties. In fact, there's probably a lot of reasons they should do better. But apparently there's no real age correlation with success in startups.
But what led, I mean, you know, working at these large comp corporates, you're talking about corion. For those not familiar, this is a massive, massive company. In fact, if my memory is correct, didn't they acquire solazyme after Solazyme had. Had had, had some absolutely. Absolutely. And,
Marc den Hartog: I, I'm, I'm, I'm nowadays also proud to say that yeah, I was the business owner that actually managed to to acquire the assets of Zyme.
Oh, interesting. And actually you know reanimated and, and bring it back to life and and unlock the power of that, that LG platform, which yeah, still fortunately today is a very flourishing part of of what Corian is today.
Paul Shapiro: Yeah, that's really cool. And so for those not initiated, Solazyme was a startup that did really well for a while and they they had an algae platform that was making all types of really cool algae based foods and other things.
I think they built a big factory, a big fermentation factory in Brazil and they even iPod, right? And then they struggled and ultimately were acquired by Corion which is still selling like some cool whole algae ingredients, which are delicious. I've actually I've actually eaten them before and really liked them.
Marc den Hartog: Yeah. And I think also that as you said, there's no age to be put on on CEOs of, of scaling businesses, but I think you know, losing some hairs and, and getting gray hairs over the years has, has of course been part of what you bring along in in that that couple of of years of experience.
Also seeing how other companies have grown, have skilled some successfully, others too fast redoing their business models. And yeah, that's the experience that that you gain ultimately working in this industry. And yeah, that I hope that I can apply now to, to chain craft. Yeah.
Paul Shapiro: Interesting.
So I, I wanna get into that, including what Chain Craft is doing. Mark, but I just have to ask, 'cause I'm so curious, I can't restrain myself. You went from being in a large battleship, right? And you, you talked about how, you know it's different, difficult for them to be entrepreneurial, difficult for large corporates to be innovative.
And now you are no longer on a battleship, rather you are on a swift boat, right. A smaller startup. But you're the, the captain of the Swift boat. How has that experience been for you? What's the difference for you on a, on a, in your lifestyle?
Marc den Hartog: Well, I think if you look at the kind of challenges that you deal with they're actually very similar from a business perspective, right?
It's ultimately about making sure you connect with large global international clients, which are in most of the cases, corporates, which ultimately are the same people. You, you deal with you have financing challenges, right? There's not a. An unlimited amount of resources, even not at big, big companies.
So there's a lot of similarities, I must say in terms of complexity of the challenges you're dealing with. But of course, what's very different is that you're not with 4,000 employees or something like that, but you're with 40 colleagues, and that on Wednesday afternoon, you'll get the local retailer to deliver.
You know, bread and stuff to eat and sell it. And, and, and you can play some some table football and throw some darts which is a very different atmosphere. And I can also say that my day is not fully booked with, with Zoom or teams calls. That allows also to have some time for reflection to work around, have some conversations but also yeah, have more room for spontaneous meetings.
So I think those are definitely things that, that are very beneficial when, when you move to a smaller company. Yeah. And of course, on top of that ultimately the amount of freedom I have in my role yeah, to to to shape the company, to to give the strategic direction is of course a, a big difference.
And that's that's very enjoyable.
Paul Shapiro: Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, I've talked to other people who are in your shoes, mark who, and I've asked them, which they preferred, like the security of a a large company or maybe more of the freedom, but insecurity of a smaller startup and unilaterally, or excuse me, universally, rather, they tell me.
They prefer the small startup. I don't, you know, maybe that's just self-selection of the people who I talk with, but but, you know sometimes people, people like that freedom. Okay, so chain craft what does it mean? Why is it called chain craft?
Marc den Hartog: Yeah. So at Chain Craft, we believe in a world where, you know, all chemistry is circular.
And, and what we do is of course, in that chemical industry. And, you know, that's the industry of industries. Ultimately being a chemist, I can say that wholeheartedly the foundation of a lot of other industries. We do that by actually making chemical building blocks called fatty acids. And we make them not from fossil sources, but we actually make them.
From residue streams, from the agriculture and food sectors. And that's what we do. With fermentation. We're probably gonna talk a lot about what we actually do. And those chemical building blocks, they're used in everyday life products that people use in their households, in the food they eat in the products they use for personal care, how they clean their homes.
And that makes it I think on all modest skill that we we are operating still a very meaningful contribution.
Paul Shapiro: And so chain, I'm presuming, is coming from a chain of fatty acids, right? So your craft is that you are creating these chains through fermentation rather than from fossil fuels. So you briefly alluded.
Mark to the fact that we're using fatty acids in our life. But for people who aren't familiar, like what is something that they're using every day that is comprised of fatty acids? Like why would somebody care about making fatty acids in the first place?
Marc den Hartog: Yeah. So first of all, I think it's good to know that for, for the listeners as well, that.
Fatty acids are made by nature every day, and I think they're, then they're in what we what we have around us. Fatty acids generally provide an acidity to products a natural preservation to, to food and to things in the environment and a certain contribution to ultimately making nature a bit better.
So I think the fact that fatty acids are new to the world, but they're already there makes it also for us in that sense. Much easier to relate to. Coming back to to to your comment on the name, and that's maybe good to allude to it a bit further as well. Why that part of the change is in, in, in what we craft.
It's ultimately that in our technology, we're not only using those AgriFood residues to make those building block, but we have actually a core technology in which we extend the length of the carbon chain, which makes up the backbone of a fatty acid. And that's what we we're ultimately all about.
Paul Shapiro: Cool.
So when you're thinking about these fatty acids, like, you know, some people might think about palm oil as an example, right? As something that is a, a big driver of deforestation. It would be great if we could make it without having to farm palm trees. One point that I have made and others have made on this podcast in the past is that, you know, switching away from palm oil to, let's say coconut oil does not really help.
Right, like coconut trees are far less productive than palm trees, and so you would actually have to deforest a lot more if you switched from palm oil to coconut oil. So it, it's not that there's something bad about palm trees, it's just they're so efficient that they're the most grown tree of these tropical oils.
But if we could divorce. The creation of these tropical oils and tropical fats from agriculture and instead put it into a fermentation system, is including one that's fed by agricultural side streams, like what you're referring to when I get into that. That would really be the way to try to reduce the amount of land that's needed to make all of these tropical oils that we're using.
What do you think.
Marc den Hartog: I think we live in a world where the challenges are so big that we need it all to fire on all cylinders. And maybe good to know as well that for t over 20 years ago, I was a huge ambassador for Palm and especially certified responsibly farm. I. Palm Oil, been a board member at the RSPO, the certification body that actually lined up stakeholders across the value chain to make sure that practices would improve and that deforestation would stop.
But I think our, our endless consumption of things like palm oil is just so big that there's no system in the world that can make sure that that doesn't go at the expense of things like ecosystems. So I consider what we do really complimentary as a need to, you know. Fulfill the demand that continues to grow.
And it's not only palm oil, it's also ultimately the amount of fossil, fossil based products that, that people are using. A lot of our clients actually look for deforestation free products but also like to improve their carbon footprint and like to reduce emissions. And and that's where, you know, biogenic carbon the carbon that comes from nature.
It's gonna help them and yeah, and we leverage that to to bring those products to them.
Paul Shapiro: Alright, cool. So let's talk about what you're actually doing most of the time. If people listen to the show, they're familiar with fermentation systems in which you have a, a sterile process, you're feeding it pure glucose, you are creating a, a fermentation where you know you're gonna feed sugar in and you're gonna get some protein or biomass or enzyme out.
This is not exactly what you're doing. So tell us how, how is the type of fermentation that you're d doing different from that?
Marc den Hartog: Yeah, so what we do is we actually take the organic feedstock. And like I said, the source can be anything. We, we, we use only, I must say, plant-based. So I think that's the the key differentiation there.
But we
Paul Shapiro: Right, and to be clear by the use of organic, you don't mean organic as opposed to conventional. You just mean it's coming from. Biological materials here.
Marc den Hartog: Exactly right. So it can be fruit cuttings, it can be household kitchen waste. It can be a supermarket out of date products. And it can be agriculture or residue streams from things like wheat.
Sugar beet production and potato production and all that organic matter normally would already be degraded by fermentation because of all the organisms that are in there that degrade long chains of organic matter into shorter chains. And ultimately, if you doesn't stop that at all, turns into biogas.
Which is either methane or CO2, another, I would say basic C one molecules. Now what we do in our fermentation, we take the feedstock and we actually cultivate the organisms that are in there, and we create a system in which we propagate the ones that do what we wanna do. So ultimately we don't have any foreign microorganisms.
We just use the one that nature gives us and make sure that the system in which we put them, let's call it the jacuzzi, has all the right conditions, the right temperature, and the right bubbling to make sure that we get the molecules we want. It's a two stage process. And in the first stage we actually acidify and hydrolyze the long chain so that they're actually broken down.
That's a very generic process. I already mentioned biogas production and that's also how modern biogas plants would operate. So it's a normal digestion similar to in a biogas plant where you actually create sure chain molecules. What we do is we actually stop it when they are actually da broken down to like two carbons just before they actually would turn into biogas.
Paul Shapiro: And, and so let me ask you, mark, you're running this fermentation. Is the organism that you're utilizing public, I presume this is in your patent. So is this a, is this a fungus, a bacteria? What, what, what is actually doing the fermentation?
Marc den Hartog: Yeah, so what we operate with is, as you already alluded to, not a single.
Source organism, so it's not a yeast or an algae that you can actually selectively grow. And it's designed for making certain products, but we use what we call a mixed culture. So it consists of a lot of different bacteria. There's also fungi and other things in there. But ultimately we make sure that ultimately the bacteria that yeah, convert the feedstock into the molecules we want is actually dominant in the reactor.
Paul Shapiro: Interesting. So normally in a fermentation, you need very constant non-variable parameters, right? You need a constant source of the same carbon source coming in the same amounts of nitrogen. Like you, you really want a, a very non-variable source. What you're describing though, sounds inherently variable, right?
You're talking about fruit peels and potato juice and wheat residues and so on, right? So how do you maintain a constant final output? When your inputs are constantly changing.
Marc den Hartog: Yeah. And that's where actually, that second step is so crucial. So once we've broken it down to this short chain carbon we actually put it in our second stage of fermentation with the same mixed culture.
And that's where actually we're gonna elongate the chain. And the chain length whereafter is optimized for C six. Which ISIC acid and some C four, which is butyric acid. And then there's SLRs of other fatty acids around it, like C five and C seven and C eight. But ultimately the C six and C four are the dominant ones.
And of course, that part of the process where we want one single. I would say chain elong to be active. Yeah, that's of course where we have to control the fermentation comm co conditions very tightly. But you're right, it's a non-sterile process. It's a very resilient. But making sure that the conditions are, are stable, very precise.
That's key to creating an economic process.
Paul Shapiro: And, and so it, it sounds like what you have is extremely valuable, right? You've got a technology that can convert waste products into something very valuable, and you can do it for far more cheaply than other types of biotech fermentation. Since you're running a non-sterile process and you can have these very inexpensive inputs as a carbon source, what is there to stop?
A corion or a DSM or any other major corporate from just doing what you're doing? Like, do you guys have some IP protection on here? Like if, if you guys figured it out, why can't those companies with thousands of employees and lots of really smart people figure this out too?
Marc den Hartog: Yeah, so I think first of all even big companies apply a certain of focus to what they do, and they look at their core competencies and, you know, don't deviate too far from that.
And and as, as we already talked about. A large industrial biotech player has a, has a house organism, whether it's a genetically engineered yeast or a silt and fungi or an a, a converting bacteria, that's ultimately where that they use as a tech platform to create new molecules from. So switching your whole base to something which is an open mix culture platform is quite complex, even for large companies.
I don't exclude that if open mix culture technology becomes, very sizable that also the big players at a certain stage will look at it. But I think in the world where we are today, they have their own focus and and place to play. And companies like Chain Craft have theirs. Okay. If you talk about the differentiation, yeah.
We do have, I. IP and a lot of trade secrets around our core technology, which is the chain elongation part. Because ultimately it requires that that tight process control and understanding also how the different feedstocks with all their contaminants and other residue residues that they have with them.
How you avoid that, they are becoming a factor of influence on your fermentation.
Paul Shapiro: Right? The way that I describe it is, you know, PE people are generally not accustomed to knowing about what I call microbial farming, right? Like they, the idea. And so I always compare it to, you know, if you're running a chicken farm.
Generally speaking, you only want chickens in the chicken farm, right? Like, you don't want raccoons or turkeys or deer in there eating all of that corn. 'cause you just want the corn to go into your chickens. And the same is true here. You know, you only want the microbes that you want in there and there's lots of contaminants that can get in.
And so you don't want yeast or bacteria which are ever present, especially I'm sure on these agricultural side streams. So that is definitely a tricky thing. I I, I do wanna ask you. Mark about the partnership that you have. So there was recently some news where you guys have a partnership with a major potato processor in Europe, and it's described as using potato juice.
So first of all, I don't even know what potato juice is. Is that like the water that is after you blanch a potato? Is that potato juice? Like what is the potato juice and what are you making from it?
Marc den Hartog: Yeah, I, I'm laughing a bit because people generally know about potato pills, but not about potato juice.
And it's also something I don't recommend to try drinking Paul, but it, yeah,
Paul Shapiro: yeah, it, it, it sounds more like a punishment for, for a kid who has done something bad to make them drink. Yeah. So
Marc den Hartog: let, lemme lemme allude to that. So actually, if you look at potatoes, there's the kind of two big crops out there.
There's of course the potatoes that are used for making fries. Full potato products, which we all know as as, as things we can buy in out of home or, or use in our own kitchens. And then there's the potatoes that are especially grown for their starch content. And those are starch potatoes. And in that starch processing facility.
They actually extract the starch from the potato, which is the main ingredient, and they'll take out protein, which is often a, a very good food ingredient. And then what's left is it needs the, the waste water that contains still organic matter and and, and other components. So think of mineral salts that are in there, like potassium, rich mineral salts and a lot of floating.
Oligosaccharides, sugar molecules, bit of peptides and and a lot of other molecules that are still yeah, valuable from our perspective.
Paul Shapiro: Okay, so I'm envisioning that what you're calling potato juice, which kind of sounds less romantically, like potato wastewater. And is that, so that is the water for your fermentation and then the carbon source also.
So is that also reducing not just your carbon needs, but also your water needs?
Marc den Hartog: Yeah, absolutely. So that that leftover waste stream is indeed the potato juice that we would take in. And actually we're in that sense also a water purification company because what we're actually doing in different stages is ultimately to extract all the the valuable matter but also the insoluble matters and use that water in our processes and, and also ultimately any kind of water that would come from our process is suitable as ultimately drinking water after cleaning.
Paul Shapiro: Amazing. Okay, so what's the scale that you guys are at now? You know, you mentioned Mark, that you guys are getting to a point where you are gonna be making an actual impact to save Planet A here. So what is the scale that you're at? I know you have a pilot plant, right? And so where are we in terms of actual commercialization?
Marc den Hartog: So let me define also a bit 'cause that that's where I'm a strong believer in, in ultimately the, the four steps of growing in, in chemistry. The business was, was founded 15 years ago at a university lab. One of the co-founders, he actually bought the patent. And and and that's something we have been scaling over 15 years.
We've had a.
Paul Shapiro: O only because I've been there and I know how to pronounce it when I say it's a vagan in university. Right? So
Marc den Hartog: well said Paul. Well said. Yeah.
Paul Shapiro: Thank you. I'm, I'm not a Dutchman, as you can tell, but I've been to the university and I've made an effort to learn how to pronounce vagan, and so I just wanted to say it, so, okay.
That's where it started in 2010. Okay. I'm ready for, and then,
Marc den Hartog: and then follow following that, it has been skilled at pilot skill. So think of kilograms. Pounds as the size at which you operate a pilot plant. And ultimately in 2020, we've opened our demonstration facility in Amsterdam, which has been running now for five years, consecutive consecutively at a kiloton scale, which is yeah, probably 2 million pounds.
If you consider, and I think that's a skill at which you have serious size vessels, fermentors. You get your feedstock delivered in truck logs. Your piping is all interconnected and that's the skill at which you really find out. And it's a very expensive skill to have, but that's the only way to find out how robust your process is.
And, you know, that has given us a lot of learnings, but also a lot of possibilities to test a lot of different feedstocks as well.
Paul Shapiro: And so is your goal to build your own commercial scale factory. So you've gone from, you know, lab scale to pilot scale, and you're getting feedstock delivered by trucks. But in order to make the, the dent that you want to make, you're gonna need a large scale fermentation facility with hundreds of thousands of liters of capacity if not more.
So, is that the type of thing where you intend to. Build this yourself, or do you wanna license your technology to a potato processor for them to build it on top of their facility? What's the actual business plan for getting to real commercialization?
Marc den Hartog: Yep. So on top of what we currently commercialized from our demo plant, it's going already into mainly animal health, animal nutrition sectors.
We are currently raising funding for our first industrial skill plant, and that's gonna be at a 20 kiloton skill size. Of pure fatty acids that we will produce in a facility. And that's gonna be about 10 times bigger than the scaler would be at which we, which we operate. How much,
Paul Shapiro: how much do you need to get to that much production to get to 20 kilotons of fatty acids annually?
Like what type of capital raise do you need? Because I, I, I believe that you've raised something like 11 million euros is your last raise. Is that accurate?
Marc den Hartog: Yeah, I think in total over the years, the company has raised about 14 million euros in 14 e 14, 4 0 in terms of oh four zero. Okay. Yeah. Equity debt and and, and subsidies.
And we're currently looking over a hundred million to be able to build and operate that facility, which is also our strategy. So licensing options might be out there in the future. Mm-hmm. But we strongly believe that with the, the current commercial traction and our ability to actually put all the knowledge into a first industrial plant is something we believe is, is the best way forward.
Paul Shapiro: And do you see that coming through venture capital equity dollars? Do you see it coming from governments or corporates? Like what is the pathway to actually raising a hundred million euros to do this?
Marc den Hartog: So it's a combination of, I think, three things. It's it's the subsidy part that that will help us, especially for sustainable initiative like ours.
There's sufficient funding in the Netherlands, but also in Europe available to do that. There is commercial debt available in the Netherlands, but also in Europe. And there will be an equity requirement. So these three elements will be there, and we've yeah, we've we've started with raising and we have a lot of talks currently also with with people that are interested to participate with with an equity stake.
Paul Shapiro: Okay. Very cool. Well that's exciting. I, I would imagine after 15 years of the company you're ready to actually start making the dent for which this company was founded back in 2010. So I'm, I'm very excited and, and rooting hard for you all to raise that a hundred million euros so that you can get to a place where you're starting to actually produce on a kiloton scale for these fatty acids.
If you look at. The venture capital space today, mark, you know, it, it's obviously not what it was four years ago, back in 2021, VCs were interested in funding these big CapEx projects. It seems less so now, they seem like CapEx is like a dirty word now in the venture capital world. Has that been your experience?
And, and if so, what are some other, perhaps even CapEx, lighter ways that you might be looking to scale up or or make sure that your technology goes to good.
Marc den Hartog: Yeah. So actually I, I, I share your view on how the market has been, especially looking back over 20 years. There have been some bubbles out there as well.
Which where, where, which attracted a lot of money as well to grow and scale in our, in our business and in our industries and today's market, with all the uncertainty in outlook, definitely a different story. So I'm well aware of the environment in which we're, we're raising money. Having said that, we actually see that.
With the fact that we have that established demo for robustness and the fact that we actually are able with our first industrial scale plant to offer products at price parity with the fossil carbon intensive counter counter counterparts makes it actually a very solid case. So. Next to, I would say, you know, pure vc.
We also have private equity, some info funds pension funds with whom we currently talk about our case. So. Yeah, in that sense, I'm I'm not that I would say concerned about the, the interest for, for venture like this. And the reality is also, you know, there are not many companies that make it actually through that valley of death as it's often called.
Yeah. And that from where we stand, the step to actually scaling it and look at an EBITDA positive outlook in a couple of years is yeah, it's pretty, pretty positive and pretty unique I would say.
Paul Shapiro: Yeah. And, and you know, look less than, definitely less than 10% of startups make it to their fifth birthday.
Chain craft has made it to its 15th birthday which is definitely, you know, like a grizzled old age in startup land. So there's, there is some longevity there for sure. And hopefully if, if it's true that you guys are gonna be EBITDA positive in only two years from now that would be a pretty remarkable thing and would be, a, a great success story for the company. So let me ask you mark, you have been involved on both sides of this coin, right? From big corporates to small startups. You've seen a lot in chemistry and in fermentation and biology. Are there things that you wish existed that don't, companies or services that you think would do something to contribute either to the cause for which you are currently fighting or to try to figure out how to more sustainably make fatty acids?
Or that would just make the world a better in, in some other way? Like is there any company you wish existed that did, doesn't yet exist?
Marc den Hartog: Well, I think if you look at what we're currently doing in the world when we're trying to add alternatives to, to the fossil source, I think we look at at, at carbohydrate rich streams, which are often pure products, but I think they're ultimately the demand for us as energy consumers and fuel consumers.
It's just way too big. To ultimately do that with primary food grade materials. So I think anybody that does anything suitable, useful with with, with residual streams that are non-edible, I think deserves a, a lot of support and credit. And I see that in our space. But also, you know, I see that with companies that that even take orange peels, for example from.
From what is squeezed in restaurants and in supermarkets to give you your, your fresh bottles. Ultimately, those pills are of value where you can extract essential oils and fibers from. So I think that's out there. I think the the holy gra still, which hopefully for me gets it to technology that that will techno and economically work out is is of course capturing carbon from the air.
I think there's plenty of CO2 and methane out there. Let's use that as good as we can and, and let that be an an ultimate carbon source. Okay.
Paul Shapiro: Well that is very cool. I am excited by that. And indeed, we had on a Mexican company called Poly Bion. I'm not sure if you've heard of them, but I'll link to their episode in the show notes for this pod for this episode at business for good podcast.com.
But poly bion is basically using fruit waste, like you were talking about, like mango waste and orange waste and so on in Mexico to run a fermentation process to make a material that, I don't know how, how similar to weather it is, but it's. Build as like a leather alternative. But that's pretty cool to, to see that.
So I'll, I'll, I'll send that to you as well so you can take a look at it. But that's great. That's, that's certainly exciting. I, I do think that there's just these rivers of carbon that we are throwing out, right? That we could be using if you can figure out the right type of fermentation to make it efficient in a product that is valuable enough to, to justify using that variable carbon source.
Okay. Finally, mark. You've seen a lot. You've done a lot. You are probably have benefited from many resources that you've either read or seen. Is there something that you'd recommend? Any books, speeches, anything else that were useful for you in your journey here? From major corporate to small startup?
Marc den Hartog: Let me think about that. So, yeah, I think first of all, there's a, there's a whole long list of books about scaling and startups, which I think all your listeners will will already have on their shelves or they're they're easy to find, right? What, what may be good is to say that, you know, I'm a bird watcher.
And and a lot of my inspiration I can find in nature and be fascinated and and inspired by nature. So I think you know, if I have to pick one, I think the book called Bird Sense from Tim. Tim Tim Burkha, he's a, he's a British ornithologist. Yeah, that's just a fantastic book that actually tries to answer the question of what it's like to be a bird.
And he describe, you know, he, he's worked his whole life and actually understanding the senses of birth. Done a lot of study work, huh so it leaves you with, I think two things. You'll get a fascination for birds if you weren't already like I, like I am. But also that we are kind of coexisting with that kind of creatures on earth, which is great.
And second, I think that it is a realization that I. If you're curious, there's still so much to learn and be inspired by that you actually can use. So yeah, that's, that's definitely a book I would recommend.
Paul Shapiro: Alright. Very nice. And I love birds. In fact, I have, I. Not one, not two, but three different bird baths for different sized birds so that I can attract them.
And I have these motion sensored cameras by them so I can, you know, get a notification when the bird bath is in use. And I really love watching them. In fact my wife and I had a, a big vegetable garden in the past and it was always a source of frustration how wildlife would be eating it. And so I thought.
Why don't we just plant a bunch of flowers and leave it for the birds? And so now we've converted a lot of our vegetable space just to flower space. And to be honest with you, I got more pleasure watching the birds in the backyard, going to all these flowers than I did from the produce I. Actually, so I am a big bird lover myself.
And I have constructed a front and backyard that is trying to be more and more bird friendly every year because of that. But I've not read Bird since. And we'll include that in the show notes for this episode at Business for Good podcast.com. And so people can go check out that book. But your, your comments about what it's like to be a bird reminded me of is a very famous essay by Thomas Nagle called what it's Like To Be A Bat.
Have you heard of this? And it, you know, it's basically arguing like it's hard to. Put yourself in the shoes of a bat that lives off of echolocation, right? Like for those of us who don't really utilize echolocation in our lives very much, it's hard to understand the world of what it is like to be a bat.
And this philosopher named Thomas Nigel tries to go and figure out what it would be like to live. In that world, I think it's very helpful for us. Asked me
Marc den Hartog: you asked me about about business books. I was just thinking about it. I, I must say, I tend to listen more to podcasts now than if I maybe recommend one next to yours then of course, probably, which is of course a great one is one of our partner companies their CEO is is Elam Kadri.
She's a CEO at Science Co. The former spin of, of, of Solvay Specialty Chemicals podcast called and is the Future. And it's about making business and sustainability and profitable. So making business sustainable and profitable. And I, I think those those conversations that she has with you know, former NASA astronauts, but also, you know, ex-CEOs like the Paul Pullmans and Fimans of this world, I think are a great source of inspiration.
Cool. But also to reflect on for my own personal leadership and, and the choices that I make strategically with, with chain graft.
Paul Shapiro: Okay, well that's really exciting. I will definitely be checking out that podcast. I have not listened to it, but it sounds like one that is very up my alley. And I'd love to hear what, I'd love to hear what Paul Pullman have to say from, from Unilever.
So I looked, look forward to checking that out and we'll certainly include a link for that as well. But for now, mark, we're rooting very hard for you to raise the capital. You need to finally bring this technology to full scale fruition. Get kilotons of your fatty acids out there and relieve the pressure that we're putting on the forest of this world and and also reduce a little bit of the demand for fossil fuels.
So we're wishing you the best and really grateful for all that you're doing.
Marc den Hartog: Amazing, Paul. Thanks for having me.