Some Help from Kelp: How Keel Labs is Reimagining Sustainable Materials

Paul: [00:00:00] Alex, welcome to the Business for Good Podcast.

Aleksandra: Paul, thank you so much for having me

Paul: today. It is my pleasure to be talking with you. Let me just get straight off the bat here. I have no fashion sense whatsoever. I have been told time and time again not to even pick my own clothing because I will not do a good enough job.

You, on the other hand, have really devoted your life to fashion and were really into fashion, for a long time. So tell me, what was it that got you into fashion in the first place?

Aleksandra: Yeah, that's, that's so funny. I, I think everyone always has potential. So, don't thank you. Don't believe that you can't come around.

yeah, I just, I always loved, creativity and color and just understanding how things were made and built and constructed. And I felt like fashion embodied that very easily, and it wasn't, an extremely risky way to explore building things. But of course, that sort of desire for risk in building has led me to build a company.

Aleksandra: So I feel [00:01:00] like there's a lot of connectivity to everything that I've kinda

Paul: done. Nice. Well, in terms of all the things that you've done, for folks who don't know about your background, like what have you done? You know, you, you, you co-founded this company, for five years ago, but prior to that, like what were you doing?

Were you, as a child, were you super into fashion? what was it that led you down this?

Aleksandra: Yeah, I, you know, I guess I didn't really have access to art or any creative subjects. When I was in school. I was in a really small school. I was very focused on liberals, and. , I just craved, a creative outlet. So I got really interested in, finding ways to do that.

And often it led to different schools and classes outside of, sort of main studies. And when it came to college, I was like, okay, that's it. Like I'm going all in. and I just wanted to go into fashion. Yeah, when I was in school and, interning at different fashion companies, I just became really aware, around like things that didn't really sit well [00:02:00] with me in the fashion industry.

and that's kind of mainly around waste, like textile waste, toxic chemical usage. just like a lack of accountability with some of the brands that we're creating, the clothing that we wear every single. And, this led me to explore, you know, alternatives for, for some of those things, specifically materials, cuz they're the foundation of every piece of clothing or fabric that we use.

Aleksandra: And I was trying to design sustainable. products, but I didn't have sustainable materials to access mm-hmm. . And so then I was like, that's, that's the area, that's the opportunity. That's something that I really need to, look into. And it eventually led to the idea of kill labs. so it really started while I was in school and quickly after graduating.

I dived in headfirst, with my business partners and we've been building it ever. .

Paul: So where, where were you in school when you were thinking [00:03:00] about starting this?

in terms of like year where I, like how close graduation Well, yeah,

Paul: that too. What, what, yeah. What's, yeah. That, that's actually maybe even more relevant, but yeah. What school and, and how close to graduation were you? I mean, you're an undergrad and you're thinking about starting your own business. you know, most people at that time are just hoping they can find a job somewhere.

And you're thinking about creating your own company. So how far along in school and where in what, what school? .

Aleksandra: So I was at the Fashion Institute of Technology in New York City. Sure. and then I was just going into my junior, my senior year. So it was the end of my junior year. you know, truthfully, I wasn't ever thinking about starting a, a company right out of school or while I was in school.

I was definitely interested in business, but I thought I was very much thinking about, okay, where am I gonna work after this? We ended up winning a competition called the Biodesign Challenge. We had a couple companies reach out to us after we won and we were a [00:04:00] little surprised. but that was enough validation for us. To consider whether this is something we wanna pursue further. What, what,

Paul: what was it that that led you to win?

Like what was the idea? Was it making fabrics out out of kelp, or what was the actual idea that led you to win the competition?

Aleksandra: Yeah, so this competition was a very open-ended. Design competition, which, inspired, well really brought together individuals from all different backgrounds. So it wasn't targeted at just designers, although it was offered at f i t, it was, it was bringing in people from other disciplines, like it was attracting ar architects and engineers and you know, anyone sort of studying whatever it was they were, but.

The thesis of the competition was to, develop a technology that was inspired by biology or had some sort of biotic connection. And for us, since we were coming from the [00:05:00] materials, fashion space, we specifically wanted to explore alternative, bio-inspired solutions for textiles. and so we kind of looked through.

Or we sort of researched all different organic matter. we were playing with bacteria and with fungus and trying to grow things. What we quickly realized was that some of it wasn't really scalable or it was really inconsistent. So we had a very clear goal on what we wanted the outcome of our project to be, when we were submitting it.

And it was a yarn that could be knit, and that could be consistent. And it eventually led us to kind of work with, Biopolymers that are found in seaweed, which are easily accessible, already have a supply chain. So we were able to source them pretty quickly. And what we were able to present at the competition was, a very, very, very early prototype of our technology, which was like a hand knit [00:06:00] shirt.

And I think having that tangible item really, helped us stand out. Cause a lot of the ideas were conceptual.

Paul: Well, that's really cool. where this little piece of history, this, this kelp shirt that is hand knitted, where is it now? Is it framed in the office? Is it, is it still in existence somewhere?

Aleksandra: That it's definitely still in existence. The exact location is T B D. we've moved around quite a bit, so it's probably packed in a box somewhere. .

Paul: All right. Well, you know, I I, I do suggest keeping a record of the company's history because, one day maybe that will have some great meaning, and it'll be in your, in your new multi-thousand person complex that you have.

I, I know I went to, I went to Amazon's headquarters one time and they had people who were using, literally like pieces of wood from the very first Amazon office in their offices. Like they were just keepsakes. It was pretty cool. Yeah. But hopefully you'll have that, so, so let's talk about then, you know, you decide to start this company.

Paul: The company has started, I think in [00:07:00] 2017, right? and you're thinking, we're gonna make materials out of kelp. And you can source kelp, you can create a supply chain from it. You don't have to start growing your own like you would, let's say, if you were using fungi, probably in the way that companies like, microworks are having to grow their own fungi to make their materials out of their, out of their fungi.

You guys decide, well, we're gonna just start buying kelp and seeing what we can do. So what was the expertise that you had? Obviously, you know something about fashion, but I, I doubt that you know that much about green chemistry to the point where you can make yarn out of, out of seaweed. So what was the process by which you actually created this invention?

Did you bring on, you know, biologist or others who actually had the scientific background to make this happen?

Aleksandra: Yeah, that's a great question. you know, So we had some fashion expertise on our team, but we also did have, one of our business partners had a biology background, so he was also able to,[00:08:00] contribute some of that scientific knowledge to what we were doing.

and we also supplemented that with advisors, both in the fashion and research space, to further our development. And eventually, once we raised, You know, our first round of funding, our first hire was a scientist. there was no question about it. We needed more scientific expertise, but the beginning days when it was very design heavy, it also led us to explore a lot.

Aleksandra: You know, we were just very curious and up for trying anything. You know, we, we knew, we, we didn't know enough about the technical interactions of the things that we were doing, but we were able to see the physical outcomes and kind of go from there. You.

Paul: How, how did you go about raising that first round of funding?

So I, I presume you all were working as volunteers. Like how much money did you raise then, from whom? who were the people who said, oh yeah, I'm gonna back these folks and make some kale, some kelp clothing here?

Aleksandra: Yeah. You know, I think we got very lucky, in terms of how we raised our initial [00:09:00] capital.

So, Pree money was actually funded through an accelerator program, which is, which was run by S O S B. The, the program that we went through was called Rebel Bio, but now it's more known as Indie Bio. so you might be familiar with them. tons of companies have gone through their program, in, in the space.

but then after that program ended, which was a four month sort, Heavy, intense business accelerator. we got, approached by Horizons Ventures, and they led that round. So nice. It was a very, very fortunate situation for us, and a really great investor to have on board.

Paul: Well, that's great, and, and we've certainly had many, indie Bio and Horizons invested companies, on this show before.

and for those who are trying to remember why, you know the name Horizons Ventures, so Lee Hushing, who is the, Chinese billionaire who's, funding is used for Horizons. They're invested in everybody from Impossible [00:10:00] Foods to eat just and, in the material space, modern. Which is trying to, grow real leather without cows essentially.

Paul: And so, this is a fund that has pumped huge amounts of money into many of the alternative protein companies that you are now very familiar with. And it's cool to hear that they're also backing, this kelp material. So let's get into it. You get some money then from Horizons and from Indie Bio, and you decide, all right, we're gonna hire a scientist.

Uh uh, so then, You know, you have a bunch of kale. Yeah. Excuse me. I keep saying kale, kelp, . you, you have a bunch of kelp, you have a bunch of kelp and then you just give it to your scientists and say, what can you do with this? Like what, what's the path to actually getting a, an mvp a minimal viable product for you here?

Aleksandra: Yeah, it was, a little more complicated than that. We, we needed laboratories too, so, we didn't have any labs up until we were able to raise funds. we were kind of, When we were at Rebel Bio, we were able to use their facilities. But after that, you know, we kind of moved back to New York. We didn't have,[00:11:00] a, an office even.

So we were starting from the ground up. It was, it was truly the very beginning. we hired our, our two scientists. We found labs in Brooklyn, which also happened to be the former modern Meadow Labs. so that was a nice, connection there. We felt like we were like, nice. We're the

Paul: Brooklyn terminal.

Aleksandra: Yeah, exactly.

Paul: Nice. Yeah, I, in, in 2014, I visited Modern Meadow there. I went there again after, but in 2014, I visited and the then c e o Andres Forgo was very kind and offered me, some of the cultivated meat that he was growing at that time. N now they're only doing leather, but back then they were doing beef as well, and.

and I remember I was so shocked cuz I, you know, I knew like virtually no human had eaten this before , and here he was offering it to me. I didn't wanna be rude. Yeah. And so I ate it and, yes, it, it was good. It, it was good. I enjoyed it. In fact, it wasn't big, it wasn't like a big piece. I remember it kind of being like a [00:12:00] potato chip of meat basically.

but it was really cool. And so it makes me happy to know that that space is still being used to do some good in the world with, with Keel Labs. So I'm very happy to hear it. So, okay, you're in the Brooklyn Army. You got modern mead, so lab, what next?

Aleksandra: Yeah. yeah, so by the way, the meat company is, is separate.

It's happening, but it's not under Meadow, modern Meadow. So, yeah, no, I,

Paul: I'm rooting for forking Good. I, I hope that they succeed. I, I can't wait to try their product. I, I haven't tried it yet, but, I, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm very much, a fan of, of forking Good as well. And we'll include a, we'll include a link to the website in the show notes here.

Aleksandra: Okay, cool. yeah, so we're, we kind of set our scientists up in this tiny, tiny lab and we're like, this is what we used to make. Now you have to make it in a way that's gonna hit these character characteristics, hit these performance standards, can be knit on industrial equipment, can be produced on industrial equipment, and they're like, whoa.

Okay. That's a lot. , and you're right, it was a lot. but they were able to really take us a long way and we've [00:13:00] come a long way and our, our product is really amazing and it's kind of crazy to think that, that was our starting point. but you know, since Brooklyn, we kind of moved on. We, our, our main headquarters are in North Carolina in the research triangle area.

so we set up about a 15,000 square foot facility there for research and development. and so now our team has grown from those two scientists to about 24 people working on our, our tech and our marketing and, and all the good, the good stuff in between.

Paul: Nice. Awesome. So let's hear what those 24 people are working on.

So, people listening to this, Will know what kelp is. You know, it grows in the ocean. It's a seaweed. but why kelp? Like, why are you passionate about kelp and what part of the kelp are you using? I, I'm sure you're not using the entirety of the plant here, that you're, you know, taking out some component of it to make into this material.

So why is kelp important and what part of the kelp are you actually making your materials?

Aleksandra: Right. Yeah. We're not using the whole organism. The reason we were so, attracted to kelp was,[00:14:00] as I already mentioned, the scalability piece, which is for sure super important to make sure we have enough raw materials to use to.

Grow, to like literally grow the company, not to actually grow the seaweed. we're not doing that. We're working with harvesters that are already producing it and, we're actually receiving a processed powder. so they just extract specific polymers that we need. and this is a traditional process, in that.

we basically, I mean the other side of seaweed that's really amazing is that we're using a resource that's abundantly available in an area of our world that doesn't feel like it's getting the same attention as, as land, right? Here is this vast, ocean. I mean like there's so much water on this planet.

Aleksandra: Seaweed is growing everywhere. this is a resource that, can replace the need of, of land to grow materials and, and especially [00:15:00] like materials for textiles. Like why not do that? It's also filtering our waterways. It's sequestering carbon like there. So much good that comes from working with it.

it's regenerative and it grows

Paul: quickly. You could almost say that it's an ocean of opportunity for you there. so yeah, yeah, yeah. sorry, I'm sorry about that. But listen, you know, it, it does seem, you know, like an awesome. Material, right? this is something that can help clean the ocean. It sucks CO2 out of the atmosphere.

but is there harm to the ocean done and farming it there? I know the ocean is obviously huge. but you know, we know that there is a consequence of, let's say farming cotton on land. Is there a negative consequence associated with farming kelp in the

Aleksandra: ocean? Right. Yeah. I mean, we're definitely trying to learn about that as much as we can.

The industry is, not, you know, it's, it's still new and it's still developing and it's growing, so we don't have as much information on it as we do the cotton industry, for example. But it's [00:16:00] something that we're super aware of. And with anything, you always have to sort of keep in mind that everything has to be in moderation, right?

This is not something that we're trying to, To, you know, take a good situation and turn it into a bad one. but really monitor the impact of our product, and of the seaweed on our oceans.

Paul: Cool. So why is it better than cotton? Like obviously it's un it's very clear why, kelp would be better than, let's say, using animal leathers.

but you know what, if I'm buying Yeah. You know, so, so-called sustainable cotton or whatever they want to refer to it as like, why is. Kelp better than land-based plant agricul.

Aleksandra: Yeah. I mean, first and foremost, to grow anything you need water. Right? And kelp is grown in water, so you're not , you're not needing to take water from one area and bring it to another.

In the case of in the case of cotton.

Paul: Yeah. Yeah. So didn't, I didn't think about that, but yes, it's kinda like the ultimate hydroponic, you know, like you don't really, right. [00:17:00] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That's cool. All right, good point. That's really awesome. . Alright. Alright. So no water in no water. Inputs needed.

What?

Aleksandra: Yeah, so, cotton requires a ton of water. It also requires fertilizers or herbicides or things to just protect it. I mean, bugs are super attracted to cotton. You're constantly genetically engineering the seeds so that they can be, you know, more resistant to these bugs. But nonetheless, like you, you tend to use a lot of herbicides and pesticides, and that goes into our water.

Mm-hmm. .

Paul: All right, good point. So, no water inputs needed and no herbicides, no pesticides. Sounds pretty good. What about the growth rate, like compared to cotton? Is, is, is That was good. Oh, gone. You, I don't mean to, I don't mean to.

All right.

Aleksandra: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was gonna be my next point. So cotton takes a long time to grow too, whereas, you know, certain, certain seaweeds can grow as quickly as, or almost as quickly as [00:18:00] bamboo on a daily basis, right? So they can grow extremely fast. and seaweeds, you know, I mean, I guess cotton's grown around the world too, but seaweed is, is grown around the world and, You know, it seems to be a little easier to manage than Kai.

Paul: Very cool. So what are you making? you know, is it T-shirts? Is it, yeah, bracelet, bracelets, watch wrist watches. Like what, what is the product? I, I don't believe you, you're not on market yet, is that right? .

Aleksandra: That's correct. Yeah. So maybe I should actually talk a little bit about Keel Labs more clearly , like what, what our purpose is, right.

so the product that we're making is named Kel. our main, our main product and our first product that's going to be coming to market, it's not on the market yet. we are, it's basically a seaweed yarn. It is mainly composed of seaweed, and then we use a few, Non-toxic additives to just help stabilize it as any other material sort of needs to be.

and the yarn is then, you know, sold. The same way as any other yarn is to brands and manufacturers to create their final [00:19:00] products. Got it. so our sort of end stage is the yarn itself.

Paul: So this is a B2B play. You, you are not going to be making finished goods. You're making, you're essentially the cotton producer selling to the company, one that wants to make a

Aleksandra: t-shirt.

That is, that is definitely right for the long term. for the, yeah. And, and for now, I mean we, we'll also create some of our own produces just to help people visualize What can be made, but, our intention is, mainly say

Paul: b2b. Got it. Okay, cool. So you're making this yarn. I've seen photos of the yarn on your website.

We'll include a link to that on the show notes at business for good podcast.com. But tell us what, what do you expect them to do with the yarn? Is this going to be for shoes? Yeah. Or for, is it, you know, can you make a leather replacement out of it? what's the main thing? Are you replacing petro materials or are you replacing cotton or leather?

What is the main use for Kelson?

Aleksandra: Yeah. Every material is very different in terms of performance, feel, characteristics, and, you know, [00:20:00] the applications are gonna. Very, we are super interested in the fashion space, and, and talking to several brands in the fashion space. but we're also very excited about the in home interior space, home, good space, and then, you know, always floating a few other industries around and sort of thinking about other opportunities, whether it might be disposables or automotive.

Whatever it is, you know, fibers are really used everywhere. If you look around, If you look around where you're sitting or where you are, you'll, you'll notice that it's almost in, I mean, it's certainly in every area that you're in.

Paul: Yeah. I, I, I am sure of that. So h how much money has Keel raised now, today?

I saw you guys did like a 13 million series a round. What, what's the total volume, of, of cash investment in the company thus far? .

Aleksandra: Yeah. We've raised just under 20 million, through venture funding. We've also raised, a little bit through grants, so that's all included in there. Mm-hmm. . and yeah, it's, it's been [00:21:00] a great ride and the, the funding has allowed us to really progress our.

Technical development and, you know, really start moving along, with some of these brand conversations that we've been having.

Paul: Wonderful. So with, 20 million so far brought in, that's, that's wonderful. Congratulations. When can we expect to see the company move from being pre-revenue to start actually forming not just relationships with brands, but seeing the product on.

hopefully soon. It's always hard to, to define that completely, but in the next 12 to 18 months, it feels pretty safe to say that we'll be having, more tangible products and hopefully our own products on the market or, brand, brand, developed products on the market. So yeah, we're, we're hoping that.

Aleksandra: Comes around quickly. Okay.

I, I, I wanna be one of these first customers. It's kind of like, you know, the company Pex, you know them, they're making the, of course, yeah. They're doing materials out of basically like the, the weaves of pineapple or the, I think [00:22:00] it's the weaves of pineapple plants. We had, we had them on the show, many That's right.

Paul: Threads ago. So I, I hope I'm not botching my memory of it here, but, but anyway, you know, they're now partnered and doing some really cool things and, and have product out in the market, and I very much,collecting these early items from startups. So if the product does come outta the market in the next 12 to 18 months, I hope that I get a notifications so I can be one of the first customers.

Oh,

Aleksandra: amazing. Okay. Well, we'll send you our, our little wait list, but I imagine, you have an archive going , .

Paul: Yeah. you know, it's a, it's like I'll have a museum here. Oh, I love that. . Let me ask you something, Alex, you said earlier that you, you know, have some, natural stabilizer that you put in the product.

I presume that's cuz you don't want it to, you know, decompose, right? If you're wearing Akel shirt, you, you don't want it to decompose on your back. Yeah, but I, I have read that the product is compostable and biodegradable. So how do you make that happen? How do you make something biodegradable but it's not gonna degrade while I'm.

Aleksandra: Yeah, no, great question. I, you know, I'm [00:23:00] not a scientist and I'm not going to try to explain all the technicalities, but, it's something that's really important to us. We don't wanna ha be a material like a polyester that's around for much longer than the, actual product it's put in is intended to be around for.

so we're super mindful. Developing something that'll last for the time that you sort of intend the product to last, but not, not longer than it needs to be, and certainly not shorter. but as far as like how that's actually, done is a very structural, sort of development on a molecular level, which is, is.

Aleksandra: Not something I feel fully equipped to speak on . Mm-hmm. .

Paul: Ok. yeah, I mean, it's an interesting thing, like you have these, the cutlery and the cups that say they're compostable, but if you put 'em in like your backyard compost, it's not gonna compost. You need it to go to an industrial compost in order to happen.

You need like certain,temperatures to actually make it compost. Right. And so I'm wondering, cause you know how, like, how do you make it happen? I don't know. I'm, I know that you're, you're, you're. saying that you're like the [00:24:00] expert on this technologically. but maybe if there's something we can include in the show notes on this, Alex, I would love that if you wanna email it to me, because Great.

It, it is this question I have, like how does a material. Be compostable and biodegradable, but not actually degraded while you're wearing it. so yeah, if you, if you want, we'll, we'll have something on the show notes on that for sure. But,for now, Alex, I'm letting you off the hook on this question, but know that I am interested in, in figuring out, because it's like

Aleksandra: absolutely, it's a.

It's a fair question and I'll get you more information

Paul: on it. Okay, cool. Yeah. It's kind of like, and if you think about like leather, you know, the reason that you, the wristwatch with a weather band doesn't just rot on your wrist. I mean, all it is is the skin of a cow, but it's because they tan the, the, the weather, you know, tanning the weather prevents it.

Mm-hmm. from decomposing. So presumably there's something that can be done with kelp also to prevent it from decomposing, but hopefully, less problematic from a toxicity point of view than tanning is. Yeah. yeah. Okay.

Aleksandra: That. That's part of the supply chain, or even part of the development cycle is so important to us.

Like when we, you know, we [00:25:00] use an industrial process that's used to create other materials such as, rayon or Bisco. So these are like cellulosic fibers. and they go through an extremely toxic process. You know, think about taking wood pulp and trying to break it down into a fiber. you definitely need something really caustic in there to make that process happen.

and so for us not to reinvent the cycle we want, or the circle, we wanna use that same equipment but eliminate the toxic use of chemicals. one cuz it's important for the planet, but also important for the people that are producing it and also wearing the materials at the end of the day.

Paul: Got it.

Okay, cool. Well, it's impressive what you all have been building, Alex, you know, $20 million for an idea that was conceived while being an undergrad in college. Yeah. It's pretty respectable. And, and the fact that you all have come this far and have now a couple dozen people working full-time to make this vision a reality.

my hat is off to you. Lemme ask you, during that whole time and [00:26:00] during these past five or so years that you have been running this company that you co-founded, Were there any resources that were useful for you, Alex, that you would recommend for others? If people were looking, you know, maybe there's undergrads right now who are listening to this and thinking, wow, I'd like to do what Alex has done.

Paul: Anything that you would recommend to them that you think would be useful in their journey?

Aleksandra: Yeah, there are definitely a couple resources that come to mind, that are specific to sort of the biodesign, biomaterial space, but also, just gen generally Great, items that I've kind of read or listened to, but first and foremost, the book Biodesign by William Myers.

Incredible if you're interested in the space, along with Nari Oman's book on Material Ecology. and then a few other Great Reads, shoe Dog by Mike Knight. it's just a, a fun read and also a cool journey from his side, and how he ended up building Nike. and then Steve Jobs by Walter Isaacson, a phenomenal book as well.[00:27:00]

In my opinion. Cool. and then aside from that, sorry, one last , you can have as many

Paul: suggestion. You got as many recommendations as you want.

I really, again, I really, really think design is such an important piece of innovation and there's an incredible conference called Design and Daba that's held every year in South Africa and they record all their speeches.

Aleksandra: I. Hands down, suggest watching, any of those from the years pass. There's always some incredible inspiring people talking about stuff.

Paul: Awesome. Well these are really good recommendations, Alex. So we will link to all of them at the show notes for this episode at Business for good podcast.com. I will say that.

I also read Shoe Dog and I was extremely impressed by it. I loved that book so much, not just because it's an amazing success story, but really because of how many times the company, Nike, in this case, had near death experiences and, right. The author and co-founder of Nike, Phil Knight really does a great [00:28:00] job of describing just how many times they.

Paul: Almost perished as a company and really what a miracle it was that this all occurred. And, and in his words, obviously it's a combination of hard work and luck many times over, which is so important in, in life and, and in entrepreneurship. So, I, I also recommend that book, but I'm gonna check out some of these other ones too.

for sure. Yeah. So, finally, Alex, obviously you're committed now to doing Key Labs. It's gonna be,sometime, hopefully years longer that you're gonna be at this company. But are there other ideas? Imagine if you're in the indie bio, know you, you're seeing all these other cool companies that are going through.

Paul: You probably have ideas for companies that you wish existed that don't yet exist. So if there's somebody out there looking to start their own company, Alex, and they want to do something good in the world, what ideas might you throw out there for them to.

Aleksandra: There's definitely one relevant to the sort of material space.

you know, there's all these new materials companies coming up. You've even mentioned a few that [00:29:00] you've talked to in the past. there's several new ones coming up every year and what I feel like there isn't clarity around is sort of how to categorize and catalog some of these new materials and their impact.

we. standards, in the past that were used to, to sort of grade the materials that, brands, selected for their products. And it feels like those are definitely, you know, biased or skewed and not necessarily relevant to the new era of materials that are coming out there. And I think some sort of, technology around that is super needed.

Paul: Okay, well that's a, a good idea to put out there and maybe that will, be an inspiration for somebody who is listening right now to think about what company they may want to begin. So, maybe that company will be a guest on this show in the future, and let's say, you know, Back in 2023 when Alex gave that recommendation, that was the genesis.

So I hope that's the case, and if that is you in the [00:30:00] future, please do reach out to us and we'd love to talk with you at that point. But for now, Alex, I wanna say congratulations to you. It's really inspirational to see a company being conceived, in, on as an undergrad now, making, a lot of headway and cruising toward commercialization.

And I hope one day that I'm wearing a Kels based. it would be a lot of fun and so I, I will be rooting for your success.

Aleksandra: Paul, thanks so much. I am equally excited to be wearing one of our products someday. Thank you so much for.