Swapping Leaves for Leather: Biophilica’s Mira Nameth

Paul Shapiro: [00:00:00] Mira, welcome to the business for good podcast. Thank you so much, Paul. It is a great pleasure to have you here. I've been reading about what you're doing and I'm super excited to have you on the show. So, first let me just state like I have no fashion sense whatsoever. I basically wear what my wife tells me to.

I don't even think about it, but I know that is not the case for you because you've been interested in design and fashion for some time. So how did that start from when you were a kid? Were you just thinking, Oh, I really love design? Is that what, what happened here?

Mira Nameth: I guess partially, yeah. so, I grew up in a family, that is quite artistic.

so, my mom's an artist, and, my dad, is a filmmaker. And I think that that was always kind of part of how my sister and I just grew up. and I, I, I was always really interested in. doing something artistic, [00:01:00] and that became something within design. and my, particular area was actually kind of more in, in graphic design, to begin with.

but yeah, I think the, the fashion part of it, was also. Always kind of present. It was just kind of more of an, of an interest. and basically what happened with our material, tree kind, how that whole thing came about, that was actually based on, me, doing. A second master, in product design, and, yeah, really being interested in, how we could change the materials that, that we use, for, objects.

Paul Shapiro: Did you Mira have an interest in environmentalism or animal welfare, or was there some other motivating factor for you to think I would like to come up with something that didn't involve using cows to make the materials that

Mira Nameth: we were. Yeah, absolutely. so I had my [00:02:00] daughter Nora in 2013, and I was really thinking about, climate change, cause you really feel the weight of the responsibility, obviously when you're bringing new life into the world, and everything that's, that's happening, in the world, currently.

And at that point, I. Just really strongly felt that I wanted to be part of some kind of solution. also being fully aware that I am not a scientist. so that was also kind of, how do you, combine these things? beyond that, I actually grew up, as a vegetarian, just lifelong vegetarian, so it, it kind of goes hand in hand, I think.

Paul Shapiro: Were your parents vegetarian? Is that the reason you grew up that way?

Mira Nameth: Yeah, exactly. So, my parents were actually vegetarians when they met. so, it was, it was never a hard decision. yeah.

Paul Shapiro: So, now that, now I gotta ask, we're talking about your parents. You said your dad's a filmmaker. They're both vegetarian.

Are they people who, like, [00:03:00] have I seen their films? Is that, like, something that we should know about?

Mira Nameth: So, my dad, made, this film where he directed this film, that's called, Andy Worrell's exploding plastic inevitable. And it's been shown at, yeah, various, art museums and institutions around the world.

So you can Google

Paul Shapiro: that. Well, we'll include a link to, to that in the show notes for this episode of business for good podcast. com. but that's pretty cool. You know, it happened for me, kind of the other way around. So my parents, especially my mom were like. Always really into animal welfare. When I was a kid, my mom even worked at our local animal shelter.

In fact, even in her seventies, she still does that. however, you know, neither one of them were vegetarian. And, when I became a vegetarian, which was about 30 years ago at, at age, I was like in 1993, I think I was 13 years old at the time. And it did have like a pretty substantial impact on them to the point where now I wouldn't say they are [00:04:00] like vegetarians, but they're really close there, you know, for all intents and purposes.

I would say the vegetarian some purists would probably not say so. But I'd say, yeah, you know, they're pretty much vegetarian. so anyway, that's cool that it happened in the inverse for for you here. You were just born into a vegetarian family. And so your parents must be pretty proud of what you're doing with biophilic.

So then,

Mira Nameth: They are really proud. in some ways I feel like they're almost like the proudest they've ever been, which is nice. yeah, they're extremely supportive, of, of what we're doing. And they, they talk about it all the time with everyone they know.

Paul Shapiro: Nice. Okay. Well, you're, well, you're going to get to talk about it with people who you don't know right now, because your parents may be talking about what you're doing, but for the people who are listening to this conversation, they don't really know yet what you're doing.

So what is biophilic and what are the products that you're making? I know what your motivation is that you're concerned about climate. You're concerned about animals, but what is the actual goods that you're making?

Mira Nameth: So at Biophilica, [00:05:00] we've always had the mission, to create, bio only products. So absolutely no plastic, in our, products, that is really, really key.

to us. So we've developed a product, that's called tree kind and it is a leather alternative, that obviously has no plastic, or polyurethane, as part of it whatsoever. and, it also uses no, toxic, components. I think many of us have seen, the, the issues. with, you know, less regulated tanneries.

and our product is, is, specifically designed to not have those, associated issues. yeah.

Paul Shapiro: So what is the product? Like what's the actual technology that you have developed to make something that you say is as good as, or even better than cow's leather? So

Mira Nameth: we're actually using, a, waste stream, to create our material.

And we [00:06:00] specifically use, autumn leaves, or agricultural waste feedstocks. that's our number one, feedstock. and, then we've, Added other things, in the, the kind of slurry, that then becomes the, the leather, the leather alternative sheets, that, give the material certain properties, but all of these are a hundred percent, bio based and that's what, really sets it apart.

Paul Shapiro: So help me understand, Mira, because it sounds almost like alchemy, right? Like you're turning autumn leaves into something that functions like leather, but you're saying there's something else that goes in the slurry. You're saying it's not plastic. So what, like, without giving away what your proprietary secrets are, like, what is it?

You take leaves and then what happens to the leaves that they turn into a wristwatch?

Mira Nameth: Yeah. so we, mix other things into it. so a, completely, bio-based, plasticizer, we add, pigments, to it. So we've, looked at different kinds of pigments. One that we are, big fan of is [00:07:00] an algae derived pigment.

and,yeah, these are the, some of the key, ingredients that we use to, create our, our material and in some ways it's actually kind of similar to how, You know, plastic, leather alternatives are made. It's the same principles, except we use everything that is, bio derived.

Paul Shapiro: And so it's the whole leaf, including like the, the actual leaf and the stem, like the hard stem that goes in there as well.

Mira Nameth: Yeah, absolutely. And we've tried a lot of different types of, Natural, feedstocks. So, I was mentioning agricultural feedstocks as well. So pretty much any type of leaf or, stem, will work within our formulation. So it's, it's, it's very kind of open that way.

Paul Shapiro: Are you running a fermentation? Is there some type of enzymatic process?

Like what is occurring when you add these other ingredients to the leaves that turns them into something that isn't going to just biodegrade within days, like the way that a leaf would.

Mira Nameth: Yeah. so we [00:08:00] don't, ferment it. we,we essentially, create, a matrix, with this, slurry. And so when that, dries, that's when we get a really strong material.

and that's how it doesn't kind of fall apart. and... we get this question a lot, you know, how does it not just instantly start biodegrading? It's quite similar to, you know, a cotton t shirt or a straw hat, for example, that it is, a hundred percent natural, Feedstock that goes into the making of that product, but unless you kind of submerge it in the lake or, you know, throw it in a, in a forest, it's not going to start, biodegrading.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah, I, I imagine that if I took the t shirt I'm currently wearing, which is made out of cotton and put it in a wake, it would probably degrade faster, but I do put it in like the equivalent of a wake, which is a washing machine and it gets filled up and it's. Jammed around in there, maybe even worse than awake because it's really getting thrown around as opposed to being [00:09:00] stationary.

I presume there's something in this shirt that keeps it from degrading because I've had this thing for a very long time. I mean, I really were probably like 15 years. I've been at work. And it's still, it doesn't have any holes or anything. It's amazing. So it is the same. So for the tree kinds that you're making, like if I had a, you know, a belt made out of that and I wore it every day, would it eventually start degrading?

Mira Nameth: So it would act in a similar way to how leather acts as well. So, as you can imagine, we've done, a very large, number of, ISO tests. on our material. And so what that does really is just replicate, usage. and so we can see what it looks like, if it would be used, you know, X amount, of, days for, you know, one or two years I see, for example.

So we can see exactly what it looks like after that. And it does behave very similar to, to leather.

Paul Shapiro: Interesting. What was the inspiration for this, Mira? Like, how did you [00:10:00] think you're, you know, you're walking through the park and you see a bunch of leaves and you think, ah, I can turn that into leather.

so like, you know, I presume that's not the idea that went into your mind. There must have been something that was the progenitor of this idea. So how did it come into your or somebody else's mind that maybe you could turn leaves and other agricultural waste products into a wearable, fashionable weather?

Mira Nameth: Yeah, so I was, I was doing, my. second master, this was happening, after, I had had my, my daughter and, was really thinking about all of these big problems that, we are surrounded by, I decided, to go back to college, and, when doing a master in product design, I was, walking sort of alongside Hyde Park in London, and,because I'm a designer and also because I've done a lot of botanical illustration, I have always been interested in, natural forms.

So I, I, and I honestly can't even remember what I picked [00:11:00] up off the street that day. Could have been a leaf, could have been a piece of bark, could have been a stick. Can't remember, but I, I picked this, this object, this natural objects, up and, something just clicked, I think in that moment, where I was thinking, you know, we could use this, as a raw input, to create a material that could, then, you know, Create, mainstream objects.

And so it was a very open ended idea, in the beginning. It, it wasn't, you know, I'm going to make this into a leather alternative. that, that was so early, it was more just like a material. And I then went about, you know, performing. A whole slew of, experiments as a designer and, yeah, there were so many different outcomes.

there were, you know, rigid,materials that were flexible materials. there were, foams, there were all kinds of things. And then I just kind of continued on the path that, that [00:12:00] felt like it was, showing the most potential and, and that ended up being the, the leather alternative.

Paul Shapiro: Interesting. Were you doing these experiments yourself or was there somebody else who had a more scientific background that was helping

Mira Nameth: you? Not at that stage. So it was, it was me.

Paul Shapiro: nice. Well, I am, of course, impressed by that. And I do want to ask just for the way person, you know, if you look up, Publicly available information about the company.

You talk about how you're making your weather from ligno cellulosic feedstocks. So for the way person who doesn't know what ligno or cellulosic means, what is a ligno cellulosic feedstock? Are you referring to leaves? Is that just a fancy way of saying leaves?

Mira Nameth: It is a fancy way of saying leaves. exactly correct.

So, Lignin is, is part of,most, wood, material and, and leaves, as well. And obviously cellulose, that's something that we're, we're, fairly familiar with. obviously it's [00:13:00] derived from, from wood material as well. there are a couple of other, key components in wood as well.

There's, hemicellulose as well. they're in leaves. in particular, there tend to be tannins, as well. and lignin is what you remove, when you're making, paper, for example. So what that really also denotes is that we don't remove the lignin, from our, our process. We're, we're using the, the whole, leaf and, and stem, completely intact as is.

Paul Shapiro: Interesting. So when you were doing all these experiments and you're figuring out how to make a more rigid or a softer material, was this for the purpose of starting a company where you just thinking, Oh, this would be cool for artwork. Like, or were you thinking, no, I'm going to found a company and raise millions of dollars to actually create something new in the world.

Mira Nameth: Yeah. I mean, no, that wasn't the original idea. I was, I think just taking it sort of step by step and seeing what [00:14:00] the, what this could be, and the material just kind of kept giving, it kept showing more and more promise. and, After, graduating, I, I joined an accelerator, and then things just kind of kept going, and we, we got a grant and then we got investment.

And so things just kind of snowballed in a way, which I think in the back of my head, I remember saying quite early on that I would love to work with some of the brands that we're actually working with now, so in the back of my head, I think. There was this thought that there would be the opportunity to do something with this quite early on, but when you're that, early in the process, you also just want to pace yourself a little bit, and, yeah, just kind of.

Go where it takes you and, and, and, you know, with your fingers crossed.

Paul Shapiro: yeah, for early stage entrepreneurship, you're definitely keeping your fingers crossed because there's such a high mortality rate for these [00:15:00] early stage companies. just for people who might be thinking about starting their own venture here, you know, you mentioned that you went to an accelerator, you got a grant, what were the names of the accelerator and the grant so that other people who are following your footsteps may be able to apply to those same programs.

Mira Nameth: Yeah. so, we, joined an accelerator, in London, that's called, central Research Research Lab. So, C r L, and, yeah, I honestly, I can't really say enough nice things, about them. They were really, really, fantastic. in the uk, there is. innovate UK, that, funds innovation, and, there are a lot of grants, or grant calls, that are, are open at any given time.

So I would strongly recommend that as well. for people who are in the, the EU, there are lots of, European opportunities as well. Some of those are open for, for the UK still. and yeah, I would really recommend, all of these things. we were also part of another accelerator that's [00:16:00] called fashion for good.

they actually then ended up becoming one of our investors, as well. And they've been phenomenal, also all the way through. So we're, we're just really lucky that, we've been able to, be part, of these great, networks essentially.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah, cool. Well, we will include the links to those accelerators and grants, grant programs in the show notes for this episode at business for good.

com, excuse me, business for good podcast. com. so Mira, let me ask you, like, you know, you go through these accelerators, you get a grant. At some point you feel like you have something that is not only promising enough, but that actually has some type of IP moat around it that you could start raising venture capital, which you did.

So. When was that and how'd you go out to raise capital and how much have you raised so far?

Mira Nameth: Yeah. so we, we, we got the grant as mentioned, first, and, then we, we're speaking, it's also all about the different connections, I [00:17:00] think as well. So I mentioned, CRL and, through them, I was talking to, someone who then connected me.

To, another accelerator that is also an investor and they, they become, or they became our first, investor, really, and they're called sustainable ventures. so yeah, they, came in at a point where. It was really just perfect timing, where we needed the, the venture capital, and they were super interested in, in, what we were doing and excitingly, they're actually, they are highlighting us, as a, kind of key showcase, for all of the new startups that they're, they're interviewing.

Paul Shapiro: Nice. Congratulations. So I know that in 2022, you raised a 1. 2 million pound seed round. So congratulations on that is, you know, 2022 was definitely not an easy time to be fundraising. So how did you cut through all of the noise and [00:18:00] such a bad time to be attracting investment and, and generate that kind of a seat room?

Mira Nameth: Yeah, it was, also partially through, through fashion. they actually connected, us with, rhapsody, who was our, seed investor. And, yeah, again, fashion for good has just been really fantastic. In that aspect. So in that rounds, we got investment both from Rhapsody and, from fashion for a good, as well.

and that was a really good combination. I think that was also through us working with fashion for a good, for some time. So we were working with three different, large scale brands, and, Fashion for goods, you know, knew us and saw how we, operated. And that's what really led us to, I think that investment and that kind of recommendation as well.

Paul Shapiro: Cool. So a year later, you have how many employees now and what are the highlights? [00:19:00] What have you done with that, with that, with those funds that you raised, to advance the company? We

Mira Nameth: have done so many things. So, we have, 14 employees. so, we, we immediately went out and, and recruited, more people, that were, very important and needed, for our growth.

we moved, so, we had an. 89 square meter facility, in, in East London. and we basically quadrupled that space. we moved into our, demo facility. So the key step there really was to, set up continuous production, which we've done, and to really prove that this is a material that can't only be made, as.

sheets, but really continuously on rolls, and, beyond that, we've also hit a number of, of milestones, where we've, we've sold material. so that was also another thing that I wanted to mention, that really [00:20:00] played in, or played into our whole progress. when we got the grant. that I mentioned, we also started working with a, watch brands.

that's called, ID Geneva watches. it's a Swiss sustainable, watch brands and we're huge fans of their work. And, that was really important for our progress as well because it gave us a really clear, set of, requirements that we were developing towards. and that's why we today, have, our material, on,or as part of Watchdrops.

Paul Shapiro: And so... If somebody who is listening wants to earn a watch with a tree kind band made by Biophelica, that's the brand that they would get it from? Exactly. And you can order that online?

Mira Nameth: Yes, I believe you can order that online or depending on where they are now on production, pre order for the next collection.

Paul Shapiro: Okay, cool. Well, we'll include a link to that as well. A business for good [00:21:00] podcast. com so that people if they want to own a piece of your early history can have that. Let me ask you like you're claiming that it's functionally comparable to cow's leather. But what about on price? Like if if they if that watch company were using cow's leather as opposed to tree kind, would it cost them more or less money?

Yeah,

Mira Nameth: it's a really good question. So, with cow's leather and various animal leathers, as you can imagine, there are lots of different grades, and different price points. so there are very high quality leathers and then there are, you know, the, the, the cheaper, quality, as well. So it's a bit of a range, very expensive leathers, they're up at, you know, 100 pounds, per square meter, 120, 140, and then you have a more affordable, leather, that can be sort of more around, 50 or 60, pounds, Per square meter.

Yeah. Sorry. Also for doing all of the, this is sort of where the local currency. [00:22:00]

Paul Shapiro: That's okay. As long as you, as long as you give the wholesale price for the tree kind in the same format. So absolutely pounds per square meter. So it's, you know, the range on cows, leather. 60 to 140 pounds. What about tree kind?

So with

Mira Nameth: tree kind, we have, projected for a, mainstream material. This is a fully scaled, material, around, 50 pounds, per square meter. we also plan to have a premium material, that will be higher priced. it will sit more around, 90, a hundred, per square

Paul Shapiro: meter. Okay, cool. So comparable within the range.

It's not as if, you know, like, for example, in the world that I normally inhabit, which is the alternative meat world. Most of those alternative meats are nowhere near the price of animal based meat. Oftentimes are 200% more or even more in some cases. Yeah,

Mira Nameth: no, sorry to interrupt. I was just going to say that, exactly.

I think we're very much on par or lower, [00:23:00] one reason why it will always be hard for us to, to compete with, for example, polyurethane or PVC. leather alternatives, is because of the cost of labor. so because we have always planned on producing our material, locally, we will have higher labor costs, and higher facility costs.

so that can't really be compared to, you know, PVC or PU production that's outsourced to, countries with, with, with, much lower costs.

Paul Shapiro: If the plastic leather or pleather manufacturers were producing in the UK, like you are, but their base material is still petrochemicals as opposed to, the, the leaf litter that you're working with, would their costs be comparable or would they still be cheaper?

Mira Nameth: So I haven't run that calculation, specifically, but knowing the cost of, of labor, and the facility costs, my thought would be that they would be quite [00:24:00] similar, because that's really the, the key difference.

we don't have a particularly expensive, raw material input and that's by design. We want our material to be democratic and to be accessible by as many people as possible. But to also, you know, pay fair salaries and also the cost of, of facilities and equipment, that's the, the fair, cost of our material.

Paul Shapiro: Okay. so if you are making enough to make wristwatches right now, that's the only commercialized product, right? There's not, there's not other products in the market. Correct. Okay. So, you know, presumably you want to do dramatically more than that, right? You want to be having three kind in car seats, wallets, shoes, belts, everywhere where leather is used.

So right now you're getting leaves from the park, essentially. How do you scale this? Like, how do you get an industrial quantity of leaves or other materials that you could actually go from Making enough for a niche watch to enough for, you know, a company,[00:25:00] like an automaker to put in all their cars.

Yeah.

Mira Nameth: So, we are actually already in touch with, a, a farming company, in the, in the uk. So they own, a whole number of farms, in the uk. so we have access to a lot of, agricultural, feed stocks. through them, they, on top of that own, greenhouses in, Spain and, the Netherlands.

and, we also have connections actually also in the Netherlands, from, from waste collectors there that also collect, You know, autumn leaves. so there are a lot of opportunities, I would say to scale to very large quantities, with one of the, the, those waste collectors, that we've spoken to, they have so much, Green waste that we're almost even fully scaled with a fully scaled factory.

We would almost be, you know, too small, for them. So the, the feedstock, I [00:26:00] think we have a really, really great, trajectory for.

Paul Shapiro: Great. Great. So let me just ask you then, you know, if I were an investor and I was thinking about is biophilic a good bet. What if I said to you, Mira, this sounds really cool, but you on your own, without a scientific background figured out a way to do this.

So why can't somebody else who also has a million or 2 million pounds in their pocket figure out a way to do this? And maybe they'll compete with you and find some way to produce it and where labor standards are lower. And so they're going to have a cheaper price and, and, and undercut you. So what's the moat, like what protects you from somebody else doing what you're doing?

Mira Nameth: So we have a patent, for this, particular, reason, it, it is really to, protect our competitive, advantage, and yeah, our, our innovation. so that's really kind of the, the key production, that we have, in place. Beyond that, even though I was the person [00:27:00] who started developing the material, obviously, we have a, a whole team now of, of scientists.

we also work together with,a company, that sits within Eurofins, which is a big, testing and research, company. and, they were also part of our, material development. so, I would say a lot has happened, since, you know, I was, Yeah, combining very coarse, you know, parts of, of leaves with a whole number of different kinds of, binders.

We've come a long way, and the, the scientific knowledge, the know how, and also the, the complexity of the, design of the material, is now just far beyond, Anything it was in the beginning.

Paul Shapiro: Cool. Okay. Well, we'll link to presuming it's publicly available. We'll link to your patent as well. So people can go marvel at the cool technology that you and your [00:28:00] team have invented.

let me ask you, you know, you obviously have. created this company. You've got more than a dozen people working for you now. You're hoping, I'm sure, to be working for many more years at Biophilica and turn it into a behemoth of alternative leather. So you are hopefully going to be occupied for some time, but I bet that you have other ideas.

Ideas that you think would be good if they came into the world. So what would you recommend for somebody listening who's inspired by the journey that you've been on, Mira, to do themselves, something that you think is important that they might be able to start their own company doing?

Mira Nameth: Yeah. so I have, I have a couple of ideas here.

I hope that's okay. so one of the first things that I think is really important, to do is, to go out. There and see what, what different waste streams are underutilized today. I think that's a really good starting point. there are a lot.[00:29:00] so I've seen a little bit of movement in that area, but, ceramics, for example, is, is, hard to, recycle.

So that, for example, is a really interesting area, I think, I think there are other areas, within, food waste as well, potentially, post consumer food waste. That can be really interesting as well. and then I think it's also really interesting to look at what companies say that they have.

Problems with, and I think that could be a really interesting project with, reaching out to large companies and asking them what their sustainability challenges are like precise sustainability challenges. so with one company, I kind of randomly found out that,staples, for furniture, that was a really.

Difficult, material, or, or product really to replace, and that's, that's really [00:30:00] interesting knowledge to have. So I think you can start at either end, either you start at the, the feedstock ends, or you can, Look at essentially sort of a, a product, a gap analysis, together with, with companies.

I would also say beyond that, that something that I think is missing, is, more kind of systems thinking around, Composting, in, in an urban setting. So when we say that a material is compostable, that's great. but what does that mean for people who live in apartments? so I think that it's, that that's a really important area as well, to think about how we can, progress that.

Paul Shapiro: Sure. Yeah. And we've had episodes on with people who are making like bioplastics and other things relating to compostability. And it has been very riveting to learn the difference between something that is compostable at your home and something that is only possible to compost in an industrial composting setting where there's like basically high heat or pressure that breaks it down.

[00:31:00] Whereas it really wouldn't break down in nature for the most part. And so we get all of these like Cups and bowls and all this stuff from restaurants to say compostable. But if you bury them in your backyard, they're not going to degrade, you know? it comes to mind. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, we've done other episodes on, on that.

We'll include some of those, in the show notes for this episode as well. for people who want to go back and listen to those back episodes, which are really riveting, but thank you for those ideas, Mira. The ceramics one is particularly interesting. And hopefully somebody listening to this will start their own company and maybe they'll come on and onto the show later.

And they'll say, you know what, Mira, Mira Namath was the reason that I started this company. We'll see. Okay, finally, so I'm sure there are plenty of resources that you rely on to help yourself to be a better CEO and entrepreneur and innovator. Are there any that you would recommend that have been helpful for you that you think others would benefit from?

Mira Nameth: Yeah, I would love to, so one, one area that I think is really [00:32:00] interesting, I think this is interesting for, for entrepreneurs, especially, I think it's interesting for human beings, is, looking at,philosophers, so, looking at, Yeah. interesting thoughts, from interesting people.

I mean, the, the famous philosophers, they are the, the, the best of, you know, human thinkers. So I think that is a great place. to,

Paul Shapiro: to start. I can't leave it anonymously though, Mira. The greatest one to whom are you referring? Are you talking about Socrates and Aristotle and Plato? Are you talking about Peter Singer?

Like what, what era are you thinking here?

Mira Nameth: Well, I, I like to, to look at all of them. so I would almost say, go broad. rather than go deep, with the philosophers. so I'm going to cherry pick here a little bit. but, you know, some of my favorites. So, Socrates, for example, thought that, what is beautiful, isn't what is [00:33:00] aesthetically Beautiful.

And that for me as a designer is, you know, it's an interesting thing to think about. what he saw as beautiful was something that was morally beautiful. and that has in, I would say, you know, in a small part also been inspiration for what we do at biophilica. another thing that I think is interesting also from a climate change, perspective is, Kant's, and his, categorical, imperative, where, basically if,you know, the majority of, of, people, can't do a certain thing, then you shouldn't do that thing either.

so that I think is really interesting as well. And I think that talks a lot about also, you know, resource sharing, and, yeah, just a number of, of, areas, it kind of applies to life in general.

Paul Shapiro: You know, I've thought about the categorical imperative and thought about. Living in a [00:34:00] house versus apartment and, my wife and I live in a house and from the looks of your video screen right now, it looks like you live in a house as well.

And, I've wondered about this cause it's such an inefficient use of land. You know, if everybody lived in a house, like the human footprint would be so much bigger. And I've wondered like, I'm in a single family house with my wife and our dog. Like, is that actually less ethical than living in an apartment?

And I'm not. you know, challenging you. I do the same thing that you do. I live in a house and I, I like living in a house. so, and I like having a backyard and all of that, but I've wondered like, am I doing something that's pretty self optimal here?

Mira Nameth: Yeah, no, I've, I've thought of exactly the, the same. So to make it even worse, this is a summer house.

so I, I am, half Swedish, half American, and in Sweden it's. It's relatively standard, to have a summer house. It's a small population, a very large country. so you can see kind of historically where that, [00:35:00] that originated from. I, I will say with our house here, we share that with, our whole family, so it's a multi generational summer house at least, and it also uses, geothermal, heating.

So we've got a couple of things. going, for it, but I agree with you. I think that there's a lot of, you know, housing optimization that could be done for

Paul Shapiro: sure. I think what's clear in both your case and my case, Mira, is that we need to be sure that we're doing extra amounts of good in the world through the businesses that we run in order to compensate for the harm that we're doing by having having what we have.

so, maybe, maybe, maybe when biophilic, it gets really big and you just place the cattle industry with, you know, using recycled tree leaves. How many houses you have will be the last consideration in your ecological impact on the world?

Mira Nameth: Well, I, I, I don't think any more houses are, are, are needed. I, I, I've, I've thought of, I've thought a little bit about how many houses a person needs.[00:36:00]

Paul Shapiro: Yeah. Okay. All right. Well, I will certainly be rooting for biophilic, to help to displace the cattle industry Mira. And I am really grateful for what you're doing. Congratulations on the success that you've had so far. And I look forward to having people send me photos of the watches that they have with your tree kind leather on them, because that would be really cool.

So you see some watches from listeners who now have three kind around the wrist.

Mira Nameth: Fantastic. Can I add one more thing, Paul? Please do. I also just wanted to mention that as part of our development, our, our tree kind, development, we also, developed a, fully, bio based, adhesive, and that is something that is also incredibly needed, in the, in the world, A glue that is affordable and has no petrochemicals, in it.

So I just wanted to mention that, because it's, it's both, a product that we're using with our tree kind, but we're also developing it as a standalone [00:37:00] product because we want it to have, further impact just beyond, you know, our, product.

Paul Shapiro: Well, that's great. I mean, lots of companies that start with one product and eventually, you know, evolve into a much broader company.

So, you know, the, the, the first Mac, obviously, it would have been hard for them to imagine iPods and iPhones, but, maybe biofilico will be a glue empire as well someday. So we'll see.

Mira Nameth: Thanks so much, Paul.

Paul Shapiro: Thank you, Mira.